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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin View Post
    Fellow Mages rejoice!


    source:
    I like what he's saying hear but I hate the mindset that is once again shown here.

    WHY are ALL 3 mage specs not multi-Dot!? WHY are ALL 3 warlock specs multi-dot?!
    We got 3 freeking ranged casting specs. Whats wrong with having clear diffrences, why can't one mage spec be more like a traditional warlock spec?

    I know that it's good to have 1-3 defining features returned in all 3 specs but what are these? And where can they be really diffrent? Shamans for example have totems as a difining feature but all 3 are incredibly diffrent. But it's always focused on how they can be more homogenized than being diffrent.

  2. #802
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taelon View Post
    I like what he's saying hear but I hate the mindset that is once again shown here.

    WHY are ALL 3 mage specs not multi-Dot!? WHY are ALL 3 warlock specs multi-dot?!
    We got 3 freeking ranged casting specs. Whats wrong with having clear diffrences, why can't one mage spec be more like a traditional warlock spec?

    I know that it's good to have 1-3 defining features returned in all 3 specs but what are these? And where can they be really diffrent? Shamans for example have totems as a difining feature but all 3 are incredibly diffrent. But it's always focused on how they can be more homogenized than being diffrent.
    What Mage Spec is really in a current designed to be a good multi dot designed spec? Arcane has very heavy hitting spells and works off of those, Frost works off procs and fast hard casting, Fire is probably the closest, however the dot spread is always nerfed and it just revolves around a hard casting spell critting to work off of.

    Arcane has the best potential for it I think, but they would still have to change the design direction.

  3. #803
    I never enjoyed NT, on council type encounters it felt like you were spending globals on just spamming your dot then actually playing your classes specialization.
    I understand and respect the skill involved in maintaining dot snapshots and uptimes if I really wanted to spend 90% of the encounter monitoring these things, I would of just mained a Spriest or Warlock a long time ago.

    Double (or triple) the bombs duration and then tone back their damage. Less mouseover spamming and more time nuking would make me pretty happy.
    One day you'll understand that whoring dps/hps for ranks doesn't mean you are a good player, there are many more variables that separate a great player from an average, dps/hps ain't one of them.
    <Static>, 16/16H, 13/13H 14/14H 25m

  4. #804
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    What Mage Spec is really in a current designed to be a good multi dot designed spec? Arcane has very heavy hitting spells and works off of those, Frost works off procs and fast hard casting, Fire is probably the closest, however the dot spread is always nerfed and it just revolves around a hard casting spell critting to work off of.

    Arcane has the best potential for it I think, but they would still have to change the design direction.
    If you look at damage breakdown, you are completely backwards. Fire has the most damage done by single target spells by a long shot. Arcane and frost will either have NT being top by HUGE margins, im talking tens of millions in damage if there is anything with cleave, or LB will be 1st or just behind your main nuke for damage.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    If you look at damage breakdown, you are completely backwards. Fire has the most damage done by single target spells by a long shot. Arcane and frost will either have NT being top by HUGE margins, im talking tens of millions in damage if there is anything with cleave, or LB will be 1st or just behind your main nuke for damage.
    What occurred over the course of the expansion was Blizzard being lazy in their mage buffing. Towards the middle of ToT, if I am remembering correctly, mages were falling behind in damage across the board in all specializations. To buff all mages specs blizzard decided to buff all the bombs by 50%ish (I don't remember the exact number) this caused drastic changes to mage cleave. They also nerfed LB's explosion but increased its periodic damage which makes it the best ST and pushed NT to the top cleave. Bombs were not as huge contributors to mage dps at the start of the expansion as they are at the end. When I play Arcane on a council fight, NT easily accounts for 40%-50% of my damage. When I play frost on a council fight it tends to be 30-40%. On a single target fight LB can easily be 20% of damage in arcane and a little bit lower in frost. I absolutely hate Spoils of Pandaria while the rest of my raid enjoys it cause of AoE zerg fest, I spend the fight pressing tab target and Nether Tempest. Our AE needs an overhaul. We should have a dot but it should not be that important to our damage. A dot is important for all specs since it allows us to continue to damage target while moving. The dots shouldn't be removed but they need a huge nerf. We are a nuke heavy class and need to maintain that status. We are not affliction warlocks, our AoE should never be multi-dotting.
    Last edited by Vedel; 2013-12-16 at 04:58 AM.

  6. #806
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    If you look at damage breakdown, you are completely backwards. Fire has the most damage done by single target spells by a long shot. Arcane and frost will either have NT being top by HUGE margins, im talking tens of millions in damage if there is anything with cleave, or LB will be 1st or just behind your main nuke for damage.
    I am talking about the design of the specs, not the damage they do. The initial design of the expansion, before the huge Bomb buffs, was geared to what I was saying. I am convinced the 40% bomb buffs was a bandaid to fix our damage, and the unintended consequence was making us a strong multi-dot class.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by taelon View Post
    We got 3 freeking ranged casting specs. Whats wrong with having clear diffrences, why can't one mage spec be more like a traditional warlock spec?
    Because Shadow Priests multidot, all Warlock specs multidot and Balance Druids multidot. That leaves only 2 caster classes that may not - Shamans (I have no idea if Flame Shock damage allows them to multidot) and Mages. But you know what? Mages multidot too!

    Quote Originally Posted by taelon View Post
    Shamans for example have totems as a difining feature but all 3 are incredibly diffrent
    Lol, they have 3 completely different specs - melee, healer and ranged caster, of course they are different. On the other hand pure classes specs that weren't redesigned in MoP are all too similar to each other, but it can't be the reason to give them quick fixes.
    I already wrote the list of the thigs developers can do for Mages. Of all simple solutions I would prefer some cooldowns since they don't break the theme of Mages being nukers. Something like Elemental Blast or empowered Pyro on cd.
    If you want to play multiDoT class I encourage you to play any other caster - they all are, they will all stay that way in WoD

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I'm gonna miss Nether Tempest if they remove it or whatnot. Multidotting with it on many targets plus arcane explosion is amazing fun when farming mobs or doing things out in the world such as questing. Mage AoE and mob tagging ability will hopefully not be completely ruined with the incoming changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I'm with you on this critique. Nether tempest is probably my favorite spell in the game, not because "lol NT all teh mobs" but for the fact that the way it worked as a cleave was really unique. I thought the implementation of our bombs as talents was pretty good aside from frost bomb being so clunky, but I can understand why they would want to change them as there are just those situations where bomb damage got out of control.
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Playing well with NT actually made playing the class interesting. Maximizing NT cleave as arcane (or frost) on some bosses was challenging and was still a different dot playstyle than spriests or warlocks who have multiple dots and different ways of applying them.

    The big issue for me is mob tagging. There have been a lot of times when mages have been abnormally weak at tagging mobs because of a lack of decent instant casts without a cooldown - ice lance tagging of mobs is obviously garbage. Living bomb in ICC was nice but you had to be specced fire. I really don't see a reason why the bombs need to be removed, but the bombs being a necessity for high DPS on some fights might be something they could look at changing - perhaps removing the bomb component from some specs.
    Reading between the lines though, Nether Tempest might be for the chop given how easily it actually lends itself to multi-dotting.

    I'm not sad about losing the capacity to multi-dot. I found it cumbersome and irritating, a Warlock type action shoehorned onto my Mage. I'm glad to see it go although we MUST be appropriately compensated.

    Let us think about things, just for a moment.

    Celestalon's tweet indicates that the level 75 talents are going to get a pass but that doesn't necessarily mean they are getting replaced or removed. Level 75 is also where our talent problems begin (I am unsure if Icy Ward counts as a problem...) because I feel Nether Tempest and Living Bomb take up too much of the same design space.

    They are dots. Frost Bomb? I love Frost Bomb, it feels different from the other two and packs a wallop. But Nether Tempest and Living Bomb just feel too similar. In my perfect world, one of them should go and I think if you remove the multi-dotting aspect of Nether Tempest that Nether Tempest no longer has flavour. I cannot see how it can be modified to save it, and a choice of two dots based on one having a gcd and the other not having one or other superficial differences, it just isn't enough.

    P.S. I am starting to get my hopes up for patch 6.0.

    I think it's time to be honest. MoP was a great expansion but it was probably the weakest expansion for Mages since the Burning Crusade. So many bandaid hotfixes, from our aoe and bombs being massively buffed to compensate for initial under-tuning, Arcane going from 6 to 4 charges and Frost's mastery being redesigned as well as the perennial fire nerfs every patch, we gotta be frank.

    Our design this time around sucked.

    With the end of the hybrid tax we lack utility other classes bring to the table and our vaunted cc capacities are no longer useful except in highly selective circumstances. That may change in the hinted at new heroics and mythic raiding, but for the vast majority of Mage raiders it will remain true if nothing changes.

    Whilst I am personally glad about the removal of our multi-dotting capacities due to finding them irritating, it is still one less thing we can do.

    The devs hopefully know this. You don't redesign a rotation (Arcane), rebuild a mastery (Frost) or nerf a spec every patch due to it's design (fire) during an expansion cycle because your initial design was good.

    Fire needs a thorough pass to prevent the nerf cycle ever occuring again. Arcane needs some attention so that there isn't a collective groan when the dps meters prove it is on top again, I know Arcane has it's fans but virtually everyone finds fire more fun.
    And Frost needs a bit more flavour which I am convinced can only come from the pet. The Shaman TEMPORARY pets friom their primal elementalist talent have more abilities than our permanent mage pet for our frost spec.

    I am hoping for good things.
    Last edited by Obelisk357; 2013-12-16 at 10:00 AM.

  9. #809

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I wonder, what is it about us mages quitting WoW
    I know this was off-hand, but I don't think it's a mage thing, I'm pretty sure it's a "whole game" thing. People are tired of the grind of this expac, and being rather alt-unfriendly (ie no cloak = normal/heroic raiding effectiveness is meh on alts), there isn't much keeping people tied to the game.

    And unlike the last 2 xpacs, fire mages aren't completely dominating the last tier of dps which would be the carrot to keep us around. Considering the xpac is still at least a good 6 months away or more, I would hypothesize we are going to see a continued sizable downturn in the general population as well as the mage pop.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Everyone's talking about stuff I was talking about months ago.
    So has everyone else, and much of which has been discussed around here and on the official boards since MoP beta.

  11. #811
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It just seems like the discussion has been rebooted. Didn't we all argue about this stuff at length enough?

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    It just seems like the discussion has been rebooted. Didn't we all argue about this stuff at length enough?
    Comfirmation about something for a class that has been unhappy with how they have been forced to play for a really long time. Yeah that might stir up some discussion, not only because of the tweet itself, but it gives hope that they might.. just might take a hard look and fix Mages to be a proper class again. Not that it ain't proper, but they made warlocks so strong that we have been shafted for doing nothing, that they can't do better.

  13. #813
    Pit Lord zephid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Could be just that they are making bombs fairly weak compared to actual nuking, which would mean a few nerfs and mastery change for arcane(again). You already won't multi-dot as Fire, because it does so little damage.
    The problem is this: If the bomb is worth using on a single target it's also worth using on multiple targets. The reason for that is that it has to do more damage per global than our filler/main nuke, otherwise we won't use it even on single target fights.

    I guess a way around that problem would be to make the bomb do less damage per global than our main nuke but it applies a debuff to the target which increases the damage we do with our other spells. Kinda like how pyromaniac works for fire.

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    The problem is this: If the bomb is worth using on a single target it's also worth using on multiple targets. The reason for that is that it has to do more damage per global than our filler/main nuke, otherwise we won't use it even on single target fights.

    I guess a way around that problem would be to make the bomb do less damage per global than our main nuke but it applies a debuff to the target which increases the damage we do with our other spells. Kinda like how pyromaniac works for fire.
    Either that, or restrict each bomb to a single target and rebalance our cleave/AoE accordingly.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Either that, or restrict each bomb to a single target and rebalance our cleave/AoE accordingly.
    Mage AoE what's that?

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Mage AoE what's that?
    A glorious, wonderful thing, seeing 2mil+ dps on trash packs is fun

  17. #817
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Our AoE is amazing, it's just too complicated compared to other classes.

    If they streamline it then people will complain how mindless mage is.

    That said it is tough to keep up with a warlock, feral, or ret

  18. #818
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Our AoE is amazing, it's just too complicated compared to other classes.

    If they streamline it then people will complain how mindless mage is.

    That said it is tough to keep up with a warlock, feral, or ret
    It will be nice to see how Meteor makes everything.

  19. #819
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Mage AoE doesn't exist as fire sadly. (Combustion spreading isn't AoE really, it's cleaving, on a 1.5 minute cooldown with quite a big build up time unless you want a weak combust)

    Removing multidotting will be interesting. Either they give all specs a pyromania type debuff for bombs (but bigger) and reduce the damage on the dots a lot, or put a forced restriction on them. I don't like both options. The first just feels like you debuff the target in the form of a dot, which feels weak, and the second is very lazy and doesn't feel intuitive.
    Got questions about Fire mages or want your logs analyzed? Feel free to PM me.

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  20. #820
    I would actually prefer each bomb to be applied to only 1 target and have each do a set amount of damage (sometimes split evenly between X number of targets) and have the secondary effects be different. Similar to what we have but we have a target # limitation. We're always going to be pigeon-holed into a specific bomb on an encounter but this might help alleviate some of our pain.

    For example:

    Living Bomb limit 1 target. Living Bomb applies 275k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or target dies, it explodes to deal an additional 90k, split evenly, to the target and 2 others within 10 yds.

    Nether Tempest limit 1 target. Nether tempest applies 250k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, Nether Tempest will explode, releasing flying tempests which can affect up to 4 random targets within 10 yds for 120k split evenly amongst targets. If there is no cleave available then a single Tempest is released on current target, damaging it for 20k.

    Frost Bomb limit 1 target. Frost Bomb has a static 8 sec CD and a 2 sec cast time (lowered by haste). Frost Bomb explodes after 5 sec (unaffected by haste), dealing 175k to the primary target and an additional 225k to up to 6 targets. (pretty much the same but made the CDs unaffected by haste) (maybe a major glyph could be added to make Frost Bomb an instant cast but increase its CD by 2-3 sec)


    I know these are rough looking but you get the idea. What I want is for the bombs to be single target but have the secondary effect be different. Feel free to tear these apart or elaborate on them. I am in no way a game designer but I feel this suggestion at least has us going in the right direction.

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