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  1. #1781
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Here's a bit of speculation on how most of our talents are going to change in some way:

    - PoM I'd be shocked if it stays as is; most likely scrapped or put back to Arcane only
    - Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
    - Flameglow is a near guarantee to be scrapped, or at least changed heavily (the name is fine and it's a whole new concept as of late MoP anyways)
    - L45 tier most likely to be completely scrapped or heavily changed. They want less CC and this tier is 99% useless in raiding (the 1% being those specific fights where CC matters).
    - Cold Snap changed heavily, put back in Frost's toolkit, or scrapped completely.
    - Cauterize I would love to see put back to Fire only. It's hard to choose between it and an active cooldown.
    - Greater Invisibility I wish would be baseline, then this whole tier could be some new fun spell ability
    - Mage Bombs are already unofficially confirmed to be consolidated to one talent.
    - 2 L90 talents 100% confirmed to die off in a fire. The last one has a small "good" part of it staying, but whose to say if it stays a talent?

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #1782
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Here's a bit of speculation on how most of our talents are going to change in some way:

    - PoM I'd be shocked if it stays as is; most likely scrapped or put back to Arcane only
    - Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
    - Flameglow is a near guarantee to be scrapped, or at least changed heavily (the name is fine and it's a whole new concept as of late MoP anyways)
    - L45 tier most likely to be completely scrapped or heavily changed. They want less CC and this tier is 99% useless in raiding (the 1% being those specific fights where CC matters).
    - Cold Snap changed heavily, put back in Frost's toolkit, or scrapped completely.
    - Cauterize I would love to see put back to Fire only. It's hard to choose between it and an active cooldown.
    - Greater Invisibility I wish would be baseline, then this whole tier could be some new fun spell ability
    - Mage Bombs are already unofficially confirmed to be consolidated to one talent.
    - 2 L90 talents 100% confirmed to die off in a fire. The last one has a small "good" part of it staying, but whose to say if it stays a talent?
    Baseline G. Invis sounds too good to be true. So I'm 100% ok with this occuring.

  3. #1783
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Baseline G. Invis sounds too good to be true. So I'm 100% ok with this occuring.
    IMO the problem is our only "defensive" is a 5m cooldown that gets rarely used due to its power; you always want to save it for a good moment. Perhaps we could be given G Invis with a 30s-1m30s nerf on the cooldown since it'd be baseline, but we'd also get a bonus 3s on the duration due to the longer cooldown.

    Most of that list is more like an educated guess than a shot-in-the-dark, especially with PoM, Flameglow, and Icy Floes. I'd also bet (a small amount of) money on L45 talents being either heavily changed or the entire tier becoming a new genre (like damaging fun ability or some shit).

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  4. #1784
    Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
    Charges are perfectly fine. Having a move-while-casting spell on a long CD doesn't really help you when it's on that CD. Charges are waaaay better right now.

  5. #1785
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Charges are perfectly fine. Having a move-while-casting spell on a long CD doesn't really help you when it's on that CD. Charges are waaaay better right now.
    Eh. It felt too awkward to me. Hell, we might not even have a need for it in WoD; who knows?

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  6. #1786
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Eh. It felt too awkward to me. Hell, we might not even have a need for it in WoD; who knows?
    The original state of IF was awkward. The current one has worked wonders for Arcane's movement issue and I think will survive to get to WoD. Great concept just bad implementation in its earlier build.

  7. #1787
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    The original state of IF was awkward. The current one has worked wonders for Arcane's movement issue and I think will survive to get to WoD. Great concept just bad implementation in its earlier build.
    I agree, I much prefer charges, makes small amounts of movement a much smaller penalty. Only way I think it would work if built like SWG would be a much shorter duration on a much shorter cooldown, like 4 or 5 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown.

  8. #1788
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    I agree, I much prefer charges, makes small amounts of movement a much smaller penalty. Only way I think it would work if built like SWG would be a much shorter duration on a much shorter cooldown, like 4 or 5 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown.
    That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. Then again, when I usually move, I go further than 5 yards (and I don't play Arcane )

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  9. #1789
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    IMO the problem is our only "defensive" is a 5m cooldown that gets rarely used due to its power; you always want to save it for a good moment. Perhaps we could be given G Invis with a 30s-1m30s nerf on the cooldown since it'd be baseline, but we'd also get a bonus 3s on the duration due to the longer cooldown.

    Most of that list is more like an educated guess than a shot-in-the-dark, especially with PoM, Flameglow, and Icy Floes. I'd also bet (a small amount of) money on L45 talents being either heavily changed or the entire tier becoming a new genre (like damaging fun ability or some shit).
    Ice block? I use ice block when G. invis and TS are down (or is just G.invis is down and im about to get hit hard). It's just a priority system in my mind, and keeping Ice Block always up for those super bad moments is the best use of it. The long CD doesn't really come into play.

    inceasing the CD but increasing the dmg duration would just be a straight nerf. Right now you only use it to block high burst damage abilities. So anything beyond the first second or two isn't doing much.

    PoM is up in the air, depending on what they do with fire. It'll never compete with ice flows in terms of mobile DPS, so if they make fire not care about it then PoM becomes complete shit and they'll have to rethink it.

  10. #1790
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Ice block? I use ice block when G. invis and TS are down (or is just G.invis is down and im about to get hit hard). It's just a priority system in my mind, and keeping Ice Block always up for those super bad moments is the best use of it. The long CD doesn't really come into play.

    inceasing the CD but increasing the dmg duration would just be a straight nerf. Right now you only use it to block high burst damage abilities. So anything beyond the first second or two isn't doing much.

    PoM is up in the air, depending on what they do with fire. It'll never compete with ice flows in terms of mobile DPS, so if they make fire not care about it then PoM becomes complete shit and they'll have to rethink it.
    One instant cast on a 90 second CD is pretty bad (for PVE). Fire only cares for AT chain and even then you really only use one of them. Pretty shitty talent in late MoP. CD needs to be 45 seconds (for PVE). Then any spec could use it on any low-movement fight and it becomes a true DPS increase. Also, being able to instant cast a flame-strike on spawning adds is nice.
    Last edited by Kapadons; 2014-03-17 at 12:59 AM.

  11. #1791
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Here's a bit of speculation on how most of our talents are going to change in some way:

    - PoM I'd be shocked if it stays as is; most likely scrapped or put back to Arcane only
    - Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
    - Flameglow is a near guarantee to be scrapped, or at least changed heavily (the name is fine and it's a whole new concept as of late MoP anyways)
    - L45 tier most likely to be completely scrapped or heavily changed. They want less CC and this tier is 99% useless in raiding (the 1% being those specific fights where CC matters).
    - Cold Snap changed heavily, put back in Frost's toolkit, or scrapped completely.
    - Cauterize I would love to see put back to Fire only. It's hard to choose between it and an active cooldown.
    - Greater Invisibility I wish would be baseline, then this whole tier could be some new fun spell ability
    - Mage Bombs are already unofficially confirmed to be consolidated to one talent.
    - 2 L90 talents 100% confirmed to die off in a fire. The last one has a small "good" part of it staying, but whose to say if it stays a talent?

    PoM, yeah, it'll either be reworked or it will be gone. It's on too long a cooldown and in hindsight it has really hurt fire as they balance around it and alter time.

    Icy Floes I disagree. It's similar to spiritwalker's grace, which the devs say they like, but different too. I would be very, very surprised if this changes meaningfully.

    Flameglow should be purged simply because it's boring. It's a band aid talent and it's hogging a slot that could be given to something more interesting. What this new ability has to be though is balanced around survivablity.

    The level 45 tier is my biggest disagreement with you. I do not believe it will be scrapped. Just because they want less CC and the tier is useless in raiding does not equate to the abilities being removed. Firstly, we do not know how encounters will function in mythic raiding. There is a good chance the necessity for crowd control could come back in those encounters now they can be more tightly tuned.
    Secondly, just because there is less cc does not equate to all cc being purged. They have aslo already said that some classes will have more CC than others and I know in my heart Mages are going to be one of those classes so favored because we always have been.
    The level 45 tier offers ONE extra cc ability to Mages that offer use in non raiding activities such as pvp and soloing. Frostjaw and Ring of Frost are also fairly well designed abilities. Icy Ward should be removed. As I mentioned previously, putting Blast Wave in here as a knockback/daze would be pretty nice.

    Greater Invisiblity SHOULD be baseline and I sort of expect this to happen. Invisibility without the talent is pretty crud as a survival mechanism, given the long delay in it taking affect. If Alter Time is being put anywhere in the talent grid, the greater invisibility spot is it.

    Mage bombs consolidated into one tier is good. It suggests that the level 75 tier is going to be devoted to abilities that affect our rotation in some way.

    As for the level 90s, we are pretty certain its Rune of Power as a cooldown that has survived right? Not completely certain but it is certainly the choice that makes the most sense. Would be nice if Mirror Images has survived in here as a dps cooldown, because it would just be a very visceral and fun button to use.

  12. #1792
    To people who say Icy Floes is very good in its current iteration, how do you use it? I couldn't get used to it. Usually when I need to move, I need to move right now and don't have time to press another button (plus all the convenient on-the-move buttons are already used), so I ended up maintaining stacks just in case, thus often wasting them.

    I strongly dislike that talent. Have I been using it wrong?

  13. #1793
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    To people who say Icy Floes is very good in its current iteration, how do you use it? I couldn't get used to it. Usually when I need to move, I need to move right now and don't have time to press another button (plus all the convenient on-the-move buttons are already used), so I ended up maintaining stacks just in case, thus often wasting them.

    I strongly dislike that talent. Have I been using it wrong?
    As Arcane, the majority of my Icy Floes charges go to repositioning my RoP on the move so I'm ready to DPS when I get there. The other times I'm using charges to keep 4-stacks up on the move or just moving out of shit.

  14. #1794
    As Arcane, the majority of my Icy Floes charges go to repositioning my RoP on the move so I'm ready to DPS when I get there. The other times I'm using charges to keep 4-stacks up on the move or just moving out of shit.
    Seconded - as well as ofc using charges for micro-movement inside your rune, if needed

  15. #1795
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasufer View Post
    Seconded - as well as ofc using charges for micro-movement inside your rune, if needed
    ^ yup
    /10char

  16. #1796
    I mean, yes, I used Icy Flows to reposition RoP or to maintain 4 stacks too. What I ask is how do you use Icy Flows spell itself? Do you have a separate macros, e.g. /cast Icy Flows /cast Arcane Blast? Do you cast IF mid-cast prior to moving even if the movement is urgent or do you let your current cast interrupt and start a new one with IF enabled?

  17. #1797
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    I mean, yes, I used Icy Flows to reposition RoP or to maintain 4 stacks too. What I ask is how do you use Icy Flows spell itself? Do you have a separate macros, e.g. /cast Icy Flows /cast Arcane Blast? Do you cast IF mid-cast prior to moving even if the movement is urgent or do you let your current cast interrupt and start a new one with IF enabled?
    Movement is very predictable this tier so you have lots of time to react. If something is sudden I just cast it itself then whatever ability I need to use on the move. Quick fingers and keybinds. I'm not a fan of a macro for Ice Floes since the spell I want to use following the charge changes.
    Last edited by Mastamage; 2014-03-17 at 01:59 PM.

  18. #1798
    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    The level 45 tier is my biggest disagreement with you. I do not believe it will be scrapped. Just because they want less CC and the tier is useless in raiding does not equate to the abilities being removed. Firstly, we do not know how encounters will function in mythic raiding. There is a good chance the necessity for crowd control could come back in those encounters now they can be more tightly tuned.
    Secondly, just because there is less cc does not equate to all cc being purged. They have aslo already said that some classes will have more CC than others and I know in my heart Mages are going to be one of those classes so favored because we always have been.
    The level 45 tier offers ONE extra cc ability to Mages that offer use in non raiding activities such as pvp and soloing. Frostjaw and Ring of Frost are also fairly well designed abilities. Icy Ward should be removed. As I mentioned previously, putting Blast Wave in here as a knockback/daze would be pretty nice.

    I'd be very surprised in the lvl 45 tier is unchanged. Even if there are fights requiring CC, freeze effects aren't it; they break almost instantly in any large-scale combat (have you ever tried to DF a kill target in a raid without being Frost, even with the glyph?) and a lot of enemies in raids are immune. What the tier needs is a freeze option (RoF), a snare option (perhaps Blastwave) and something additional; Frostjaw is ok but again, rarely used in PvE with the silence effect tied to the freeze. It's really a PvP talent.

    I also predict that Ice Floes won't go unchanged, as moving-while-casting is something that the devs want to cut back on in WoD. Using it on Siegecrafter, a heavy movement fight, I have a charge ready to get me where I need to go without losing DPS 90% of the time.
    Malon of <Nightshift> on Wildhammer-EU. 10-man hardcore raider, player since classic.
    Posting tips for raiding Mages as @ArcaneTactics.
    Author of Wowhead's official Mage DPS Guide.

  19. #1799
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Movement is very predictable this tier so you have lots of time to react. If something is sudden I just cast it itself then whatever ability I need to use on the move. Quick fingers and keybinds. I'm not a fan of a macro for Ice Floes since the spell I want to use following the charge changes.
    I've found it really hard to get used to. Actually I didn't find an easy-to-access keybind for it, so it was on shift+G, similar to PoM and Blazing Speed, which I specced in 99% of time in MoP.

  20. #1800
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapadons View Post
    One instant cast on a 90 second CD is pretty bad (for PVE). Fire only cares for AT chain and even then you really only use one of them. Pretty shitty talent in late MoP. CD needs to be 45 seconds (for PVE). Then any spec could use it on any low-movement fight and it becomes a true DPS increase. Also, being able to instant cast a flame-strike on spawning adds is nice.
    I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. But 45s on PoM still doesn't compete with Ice Flows in terms of movement gains. You'd only use PoM when on the move, and if that is the case IF is just better. It wouldn't ever be a DPS gain. PoM without the current fire DPS scheme is out-dated and needs to be changed or removed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    I've found it really hard to get used to. Actually I didn't find an easy-to-access keybind for it, so it was on shift+G, similar to PoM and Blazing Speed, which I specced in 99% of time in MoP.
    Shift+G feels akward for something you are going to hit before moving (so you'll be presing upwards of 4 keys at once to use it). I have Ice flows bound to R and it works quite nicely.

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