6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Hatelocker]

My reasoning against it having pure utility uses instead of DPS uses (or both, that's fine) is because we, as a class, already have SO much personal utility, having extra is needless and almost pointless.

Would you be terribly upset if I quoted that and used it the next time I hear mages talk about a lack of utility? (note - I understand the gripe is usually mentioned around a lack of a raid wide CD, which is completely true, but having significantly more personal utility than other classes is nothing to sneeze at)

[mrgreenthump]

Would you be terribly upset if I quoted that and used it the next time I hear mages talk about a lack of utility? (note - I understand the gripe is usually mentioned around a lack of a raid wide CD, which is completely true, but having significantly more personal utility than other classes is nothing to sneeze at)

That would be great.. if the game weren't designed around every class being able to survive encounter mechanics nowdays. And that is what our utility gives us, survivability. Sure we don't die, but it won't help the guy next to you like a rogue using smoke bomb does most of the time. Now I ain't really complaining or anything, just want to point that those saying we lack raid utility have a fairly valid point.

[voltaa]

That would be great.. if the game weren't designed around every class being able to survive encounter mechanics nowdays. And that is what our utility gives us, survivability. Sure we don't die, but it won't help the guy next to you like a rogue using smoke bomb does most of the time. Now I ain't really complaining or anything, just want to point that those saying we lack raid utility have a fairly valid point.

Except it could help other people's survival, take lei shen for example where you can ginvis someone else's static shock to soak the brunt of the damage. The issue isn't that we didn't have utility, it's that people weren't thinking of how to use it, I am with cycobi on this 100%, our utility is fine without adding alter time to it, we are just losing out on skillcap.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

And more recently, Aim on H Paragons. Especially now that it doesn't fire when broken. No one has to move, no one has to be healed up, it's an indirect DPS/healing utility on that fight. Let's go backwards, Ultraxion. You needed people to soak it, we can do that. Before they nerfed it, ring of frost on H Will of the Emperor holding down all the adds.

[Hatelocker]

I am not arguing that mages don't get the short end of the stick in terms of raid utility. My only point was as a group they regularly state the only thing they bring is dps, which is just not true. Being able to solo soak mechanics, control adds, AoE grip adds (aka DKs), have more personal defensive CDs than other classes, etc all provide some level of raid utility even though it isn't a raid wide CD. I understand the argument and perhaps blizz should add something to mages but to state they bring nothing but dps just isn't true.

[Deleted]

Nitro boost = raid utility because you can kite an enranged boss for a couple seconds = more raid dps.

Personally I don't think it's constructive to justify what is and what isn't raid utility. The fact is, mages have a ton of Utility which fills niches, and for one or two fights every tier we get to use these spells in a way which significantly eases the encounter. Personally I'm very content with that. Sure, we don't see green numbers keep the raid up when we use one of our raid cds, but then again, we've always been represented in every bracket of raiding.

On the topic of alter time, i like it's current state a lot. Whether or not a mage is brilliant is determined in the playstyle (regardless of how mundane and low-skillcapped some of you tossers say it is!) and i feel like Alter time fits that way of playing very much. It helps differentiate mages from one another which is a common thing we strive for, especially in the mmo-champion community. :P

Furthermore i love the way alter time can at the moment, already be used defensively should something totally go to shit. Two examples i have from this tier are:

a) A noob trial (fuck all the recruits a 10man hardcore guild needs to go through atm) fucked up the thok fixate and i took the fixate @ very high stacks of his movement buff. I then altertimed the nitroboost buff, and let him chase after me making him run past my altertime, into me porting back again now on the other side of thok, avoiding being cornered and saving half the raid from getting chomped.

b) Soaking the 4th malice (the immunity class soaking malice) by utilising ginvis and alter time, only letting one pulse go off.

With example a, i feel like mages going into WoD, shouldn't have to do moves like that to feel like they're getting something out of alter time. I think it'll be hard for mages to adapt from seeing sick deepz because they used their AT button correctly, into a spell that you cast occasionally to top yourself off during high raid damage. As has already been mentioned, we don't need more buttons for that as we have more than enough. (iceblock, ginvis, healthstone, temp shield.)

As for example b, i wonder if with Blizz's mindset on snapshotting offensive buffs with AT not working anymore (If that's their solution to AT becoming a non dps cd), they'll discard the option of us using AT coupled with temp shield, iceblock glyph buff, ginvis, icebarrier, power word: shield etc for survival, and transforming it into a strictly health, mana and position spell. It'd be hard to not think of it as a boring spell, should that happen, as mages will reminisce of what it once was.

TLR Mages don't need more utility to survive themselves, giving mages raid mana crystals wont give more mages raid spots, we all play mages because of the niche utility which they have, we don't need more utility to justify a raid spot, AT will suck considering what it once was / forces mages to pull off moves which shouldn't be expected of us if AT is turned into a health, mana and position spell to make it seem like a spell worth using.

[LocNess]

I am not arguing that mages don't get the short end of the stick in terms of raid utility. My only point was as a group they regularly state the only thing they bring is dps, which is just not true. Being able to solo soak mechanics, control adds, AoE grip adds (aka DKs), have more personal defensive CDs than other classes, etc all provide some level of raid utility even though it isn't a raid wide CD. I understand the argument and perhaps blizz should add something to mages but to state they bring nothing but dps just isn't true.

It still is very situational for some of those and the defensive CDs are nice, but if you look at charts even with TS and such I am still usually on the bottom of self healing, or close to it. Greater Invis is great for certain things as well, but it isn't unique (priests get dispersion and such). Shadow priests have admittedly bad dps, but they are good to bring to the raid for awesome VA CDs which can be a raid savor (and was for my group on Elegeon during T14 for our first kill). If you are looking to support the raid, there is absolutely no reason to bring a Mage. Also what AoE add grip do we get? Are you talking about Ring of Frost?

Either way, personal utility =/= raid utility unless used for it. Greater Invis can do crawler mines on Iron Jugg, and survive some other situational stuff and that is a great ability, but it is still a talent and a large amount of Mages unfortunately still have a hardon for Cauterize it seems, so it really isn't used as much as raids could take advantage of.

[Frost1129]

You guys are citing very specific examples and then claiming this somehow closes the gap in the amount of utility we bring to a raid compared to other classes. Last I checked HTT/AG/Smokebomb/AMZ/Demo/skull banner/Rallying/HoTW+Tranq/Devo/VE don't require such specific cases. Rather, they are useful on every single fight. If they are not being incorporated into a specific CD rotation (for something like Thok) then at the very least they offer "oh shit, raid is dipping hit raid cd X", which we don't ever have the chance to do.

We have great personal defenses and mobility, but to claim that we bring raid utility isn't accurate I don't think.

[Mastamage]

And more recently, Aim on H Paragons.

Easily my favorite mechanic to cheese with GI. I remember one Paragons kill we had where all three Mages were targeted with Aim during the fight. No damage, no extra movement. THAT is raid utility.

[LocNess]

Easily my favorite mechanic to cheese with GI. I remember one Paragons kill we had where all three Mages were targeted with Aim during the fight. No damage, no extra movement. THAT is raid utility.

That is also extremely RNG and should count as possible raid utility; I would not bring a bunch of Mages just because we can get lucky and save us an extra 20 seconds of movement throughout a fight.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

That is also extremely RNG and should count as possible raid utility; I would not bring a bunch of Mages just because we can get lucky and save us an extra 20 seconds of movement throughout a fight.

Sure, but between mages, priests, rogues, and hunters, you save a fair amount. That's 12 players in our raids. It's not a unique utility, almost nothing is.

Again, I feel like Blizz will reduce the amount of raid saving cooldowns available to DPS specs rather than give it out to everyone who currently lacks it. Raid DPS CDs are hero, skull banner, and stormlash. They spread hero around, and have said they want to reduce CD stacking. Stormlash and banner will probably get cut or go some form of player-only.

"oh shit, raid is dipping hit raid cd X"

This is rarely the case. It's all on a schedule or there's "BOSS IS UP FOR 10 SECONDS POP EVERY DEFENSIVE EVER".

[Kapadons]

That is also extremely RNG and should count as possible raid utility; I would not bring a bunch of Mages just because we can get lucky and save us an extra 20 seconds of movement throughout a fight.

You bring mages cause of damage. Any kind you need. AOE, Sustained or burst. Not every spec can you say that about. Mages have the tools to gain a raid spot no matter what kind of damage you need done.

[Mastamage]

That is also extremely RNG and should count as possible raid utility; I would not bring a bunch of Mages just because we can get lucky and save us an extra 20 seconds of movement throughout a fight.

While it is RNG, a 90% damage reduction on Malkorok H when soaking a void zone is also a raid utility. Less healer mana spent on you which means more for the rest of the raid.

[LocNess]

You bring mages cause of damage. Any kind you need. AOE, Sustained or burst. Not every spec can you say that about. Mages have the tools to gain a raid spot no matter what kind of damage you need done.

And if our damage was as low as it was at the beginning of 5.2, we have no reason to be brought and will be sat, which is exactly what happened to a lot of progression guilds until our 40% bomb buff, turning us into a multi-dot class. Yeah it might only effect 5% of guilds who really care about quick progression into heroics, but it is still valid.

You are correct that Mage damage is the main reason why Mages are brought. We are usually near the top and very dependable, but we can't count on that all the time.

While it is RNG, a 90% damage reduction on Malkorok H when soaking a void zone is also a raid utility. Less healer mana spent on you which means more for the rest of the raid.

It may be a raid utility in that one scenario, but that is still not a reason to bring in a Mage for more than a boss then. Raid utility should be things that could be helpful on every boss raid wide. Like Warlock Portals, S priest Halo, Vampiric Embrace, Major healing CDs, Healthstones etc. etc. Just because I have a Rogue that has feint and can soak sparks on Will of the Emperor better than others doesn't mean he earns a permanent spot in the raid from 1 fight. Raid utility needs to be consistent.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

It may be a raid utility in that one scenario, but that is still not a reason to bring in a Mage for more than a boss then. Raid utility should be things that could be helpful on every boss raid wide. Like Warlock Portals, S priest Halo, Vampiric Embrace, Major healing CDs, Healthstones etc. etc. Just because I have a Rogue that has feint and can soak sparks on Will of the Emperor better than others doesn't mean he earns a permanent spot in the raid from 1 fight. Raid utility needs to be consistent.

And yet we've been brought to every point of progression this expansion with the exception of H Thok, and even then we started showing up shortly after. We've been blatantly outclassed by warlocks this whole expansion, and yet we're still taken to raids at all levels. Just because our toolkit of utility hasn't been used due to 10m restrictions, doesn't mean we don't bring things to the table. It does not mean we won't see them used going forward. We are one of three who can decurse. We're the only players who can spellsteal, the other being a pet. We have two nigh-immunities, one of which can be used for wipe recovery. We have one of the few spammable, AOE, ranged slows.

I do not believe we are owed the next variation of power word: barrier, like rogues got. If we absolutely, positively had to get some spell for the direct sake of the raid's survival, I want Skeer's stolen ability. Have it throw out time distortions that reverse your wounds. It matches our running theme of temporal magic class cooldowns, and isn't as mindless as AG/VE, as they have to be down shortly before the damage hits.

[Kapadons]

And yet we've been brought to every point of progression this expansion with the exception of H Thok, and even then we started showing up shortly after. We've been blatantly outclassed by warlocks this whole expansion, and yet we're still taken to raids at all levels. Just because our toolkit of utility hasn't been used due to 10m restrictions, doesn't mean we don't bring things to the table. It does not mean we won't see them used going forward. We are one of three who can decurse. We're the only players who can spellsteal, the other being a pet. We have two nigh-immunities, one of which can be used for wipe recovery. We have one of the few spammable, AOE, ranged slows.

I do not believe we are owed the next variation of power word: barrier, like rogues got. If we absolutely, positively had to get some spell for the direct sake of the raid's survival, I want Skeer's stolen ability. Have it throw out time distortions that reverse your wounds. It matches our running theme of temporal magic class cooldowns, and isn't as mindless as AG/VE, as they have to be down shortly before the damage hits.

If they were gonna keep Crit banner, it would make sense to add to another class.

[LocNess]

And yet we've been brought to every point of progression this expansion with the exception of H Thok, and even then we started showing up shortly after. We've been blatantly outclassed by warlocks this whole expansion, and yet we're still taken to raids at all levels. Just because our toolkit of utility hasn't been used due to 10m restrictions, doesn't mean we don't bring things to the table. It does not mean we won't see them used going forward. We are one of three who can decurse. We're the only players who can spellsteal, the other being a pet. We have two nigh-immunities, one of which can be used for wipe recovery. We have one of the few spammable, AOE, ranged slows.

I do not believe we are owed the next variation of power word: barrier, like rogues got. If we absolutely, positively had to get some spell for the direct sake of the raid's survival, I want Skeer's stolen ability. Have it throw out time distortions that reverse your wounds. It matches our running theme of temporal magic class cooldowns, and isn't as mindless as AG/VE, as they have to be down shortly before the damage hits.

As I mentioned in the post above, that is only because we are a dependable good damage class. Look what happened at the beginning of 5.2 when our specs were horrible with ~500 ilevel gear. Mages everywhere were sat for most things. Again, it wasn't EVERY Mage in EVERY guild, but it still was a large overall class drop until we were bandaid fixed. What if at some point next expansion we are in the bottom half of the charts, and also bring nothing to the raid? Unless the fight requires spellsteal for Mythic or something, we can just flamestrike the benches to keep them warmer for everybody.

I understand there are plenty of casual guilds that will play a Mage no matter what because they are a friend, or just don't care about top % stuff, but for competitive players that really want to help the raid, I am not going to want to re roll because my favourite class is just so useless.

[voltaa]

Loc, you talk about the beginning of 5.2, where we were "bottom half of the charts" and top % guilds weren't bringing mages because we lack the utility, yet all 13 world firsts had AT LEAST one mage, more often two. It wasn't the top guilds who were sitting mages, it was those mid tier guilds who didn't really know what they were doing and just heard "mages are bad".
We are in a good spot and heading in a good direction for "securing spots" in mythic raids. We have never historically had issues getting into raids, we aren't ha ing issues now and with presumably nore niche mechanics being introduced next expansion we will only become more desireable. With alter time (tragically) becoming a fourth personal, we will undeniably have THE best cheese ability in the game. What's that? A debuff going out every 45 that needs to be soaked? Ya I'll take 7 no worries someone just cover the one at 3 minutes. If being able to nearly negate mechanics isn't raid utility, I don't know what is. The mage community needs to see the light that raid utility doesn't just mean throwing out offtranqs anymore, fights are more complex now than ever and going forward if what we heard about mythic is true this will only become more and more the case.

Edit: for curiosity (and boredom) sake, I figured out using GI, Ice block and alter time we can cheese something every 45 seconds for 9 minutes (except at the 3:45 mark) that's 12/13 mechanics potentially.

[LocNess]

*snip*

All the world firsts were a little bit after when Mages were rebuffed, which was March 12, the first Lei Shen H 25 was on March 26, 2 weeks after. Granted I might just be more personally irritated by it as my guild at the time sat all of the Mages including myself, but it was still a problem among my friends guilds who were doing the same and there was a shit storm of Mages complaining on the forums they had to re roll Warlock or were being sat until the buffs. IIRC our dps was better even without the bomb buffs once your ilevel started climbing a good amount, but only 10% of the raiding population of Mages probably could pull that off or have the skill to be competitive.

If we can cheese a bunch of mechanics or the raid, that is great. However RNG mechanics shouldn't count as "Woo raid utility!" such as Aim on Paragon, and should be more like taking mines on Iron Jugg that we can actually control. If next expansion brings that, I am all for being a class that can take blows with the best of them with GI or completely negate a mechanic with IB, we just are going to have to see, and I would rather just see us get something like Mana Stones so I know we definitely have something going for us. I don't really trust our dps despite our history because the game is always evolving.

[Obelisk Kai]

The question of utility in all honesty is a vexing one and is a byproduct of how the game has shifted. We used to bring unparalleled crowd control as our utility, however the game has moved away from that in recent years.

Then we brought fantastic damage, played right and with the hybrid tax in place we were (in theory at least) supposed to offer supreme damage. But the hybrid tax has also fallen out of favour as a concept, meaning all we have to offer is the damage we can do individually.

I don't doubt this issue is a bit of a pickle for Blizzard, and it isn't just Mages.


Steven Marshall ‏@Smarshall2810 1 Jan
@Celestalon Why bring a hunter over a warlock? Less DPS, Less utility, less AoE, less survivability. Any extra utility in WoD for hunters?
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Celestalon ‏@Celestalon 1 Jan
@Smarshall2810 What you just described is a problem with Warlocks, not Hunters.
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7:49 PM - 1 Jan 14 · Details

Hunters seem to feel similarly aggrieved about a lack of anything to offer compared to Warlocks and Celestalon defines Warlocks as being a problem.

But how can they deal with this (and I'm sorry to focus on Warlocks here)? Warlock utility boils down to summoning, demonic gateways, soulstones for combat rez and healthstones. All are measurable and tangible increases to a raid's quality of life.

Soulstones is a combat resurrection. Two other classes can do this, seems to be fairly shared out and Warlocks have a logical basis for having this spell.

They are the only ones who can summon other people TO the raid. On the other hand, from a Mage centric-perspective we are the only ones who can open portals allowing people to depart. We also gain personal utility from this aspect of our class as we can teleport around the world as we see fit. Regardless, summoning to and portalling from are convenience utility, something we can all live without if necessary.

Demonic Gateway is probably the spell that makes me a little jealous. With a little bit of tweaking it could easily have been given to Mages as our utility spell. I mean we are Masters of the Arcane right? We could have set up mini portals. Ah well, c'est la vie.

Healthstones are bloody useful and are probably the most obvious Warlock utility to share out to another class. I suspect another class will get access to something like healthstones this coming expansion, probably hunters (we are too close to Warlocks design wise). Some people suggest mana stones that could be used to regenerate a chunk of a secondary resource. While it sounds cool in theory, it would just lead to a balancing nightmare as people would deploy the stones to boost their dps at the optimum moment and to NOT have the manastone would be far more impactful on a raid than not having a Warlock.

The tweet also implies that they have gone too far with Warlock utility, backing up something Ghostcrawler said in the summer (http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/07/08/do...ity-to-a-raid/)

The devs have also talked in the past (sadly I cannot find the link) about how the ability to survive and cheese certain mechanics is ALSO a utility in their view, just one not appreciated as such by the player base. Which is the problem, if the player base doesn't recognise the utility and the benefits its brings it hard to sell yourself on the basis of your class.

We cannot judge until we see the initial 6.0 patch notes (and see if they have begun iterating mage class changes).