6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Polarthief]

Well, Blizzard this expac tried to make moves away from "Passive" mitigation which made Warlocks and other classes insanely broken compared to classes that didn't. I personally prefer this style and it rewards good play rather than encourages lazy play.

The problem though is what can you put as a third active to match up with TS and IB?

[Deleted]

The problem though is what can you put as a third active to match up with TS and IB?

That's "Magey"? Not sure. If you changed CD on TS to ~30-35s and did something similar with IB (or, in general, make their cooldowns slightly longer), could potentially have something that's smaller CD but smaller mitigation as well. Idk. That could be against the whole "button-bloat" thing Blizzard are trying to remove but IMO Mages don't have that many binds anyway.

The only way they'll get a third talent that matches up against TS/IB is by slightly nerfing those two, they're both inherently strong in their own ways.

[Polarthief]

That's "Magey"? Not sure. If you changed CD on TS to ~30-35s and did something similar with IB (or, in general, make their cooldowns slightly longer), could potentially have something that's smaller CD but smaller mitigation as well. Idk. That could be against the whole "button-bloat" thing Blizzard are trying to remove but IMO Mages don't have that many binds anyway.

The only way they'll get a third talent that matches up against TS/IB is by slightly nerfing those two, they're both inherently strong in their own ways.

And then you get a third spell that's good in PvP and shit in PvE. Huh, sounds like Cold Snap

[Deleted]

And then you get a third spell that's good in PvP and shit in PvE. Huh, sounds like Cold Snap

Not necessarily; would have its niche in PvE and could perhaps be balanced to not have such a large impact in PvP, especially considering you'd be choosing between that and IB/TS.

[Deleted]

Probably all the earlier Talent Tiers need to be revamped.

Tier 1: Mobility
-Blazing Speed is okay
-Ice Floes only needs a small change imo: It should be simply 10sec duration in which you can cast and channel while moving with 25sec CD. The current Charge-System feels clunky and even as a experienced player i sometimes fail to use it correctly, must be too complicated for newer players.
-PoM isn't really Mobility... i like the Improved Blink idea. I always loved improved Blink when playing Arcane in Cata!

Tier 2: Survivability
-TS and Ice Barrier are fine
-Flameglow is completely useless and Mages could need a nice new passive here. Maybe something like... Flameglow: You send out a constant stream of heat which shields your 5 nearest friends from harm, absorbing 2% of your Max-HP every 5sec on each. Doesnt boost your own surv but is some nice raidsupport.

Tier 3: CC
Atm relatively useless in PvE... you can sometimes use Ring of Frost, Frostjaw very rarely and Ice Ward is only useful in 5man Dungeons. Though mages should be somewhat cc-heavy they currently lack a lot of utility when it comes down to stuns. Deep Freeze is too clunky and near impossible to use in PvE and we dont have a AE Stun.
-Ring of Frost can stay as a mid-duration Mass-CC.
-Frostjaw becomes "Deep Freeze" (=Deep Freeze no longer baseline which would help against the crybabies in PvP): Stuns the target for 6sec. If the target was frozen before it will still count as frozen while stunned.
-Ice Ward becomes "Ice Boulder": You summon a massive boulder of Ice above your enemies. After 2 Seconds the boulder will fall to the ground, stunning your enemies for 5sec.

Tier 4: Survivability:
-Cauterize and Greater Invis are fine.
-Cold snap is very rarely used atm in PVE. Would be more interesting if it also resets your Tier 3 Talents.

[Polarthief]

Probably all the earlier Talent Tiers need to be revamped.

Tier 1: Mobility
-Ice Floes only needs a small change imo: It should be simply 10sec duration in which you can cast and channel while moving with 25sec CD. The current Charge-System feels clunky and even as a experienced player i sometimes fail to use it correctly, must be too complicated for newer players.
-PoM isn't really Mobility... i like the Improved Blink idea. I always loved improved Blink when playing Arcane in Cata!

That IF is BROKEN. 10s free-casting on a 2m cooldown would be more in-line, but then it's a carbon-copy of Spiritwalker's Grace. Also, thank you! It (Imp Blink) was one of my absolute FAVORITE talents to get, and yes, I would even sacrifice up to 5% DPS just to have it, so I was pretty crushed when they removed it from MoP... It was even intended to be a baseline PASSIVE for us, until they chose to not keep it... Needless to say I was so sad ;~;

Tier 2: Survivability
-Flameglow is completely useless and Mages could need a nice new passive here. Maybe something like... Flameglow: You send out a constant stream of heat which shields your 5 nearest friends from harm, absorbing 2% of your Max-HP every 5sec on each. Doesnt boost your own surv but is some nice raidsupport.

That one doesn't seem all that helpful either... Not sure what they could do, but they need to do SOMETHING for that third slot.

Tier 3: CC
Atm relatively useless in PvE... you can sometimes use Ring of Frost, Frostjaw very rarely and Ice Ward is only useful in 5man Dungeons. Though mages should be somewhat cc-heavy they currently lack a lot of utility when it comes down to stuns. Deep Freeze is too clunky and near impossible to use in PvE and we dont have a AE Stun.
-Ring of Frost can stay as a mid-duration Mass-CC.
-Frostjaw becomes "Deep Freeze" (=Deep Freeze no longer baseline which would help against the crybabies in PvP): Stuns the target for 6sec. If the target was frozen before it will still count as frozen while stunned.
-Ice Ward becomes "Ice Boulder": You summon a massive boulder of Ice above your enemies. After 2 Seconds the boulder will fall to the ground, stunning your enemies for 5sec.

I feel that they should scrap the entire tier because they wanted less CC anyways, right? So, I turned it into an interesting take on externals (for the most of them): Debuffing enemies rather than buffing allies.

Tier 4: Survivability:
-Cold snap is very rarely used atm in PVE. Would be more interesting if it also resets your Tier 3 Talents.

That just buffs it even more in PvP and does nothing more for PvE, which is a bad thing on both sides (it's already too good for PvP; why buff it further there?)

[LocNess]

I say just change Flameglow to:

Flameglow - Any damage taken that deals 7% or less of your HP is reduced by half. For players this is reduced by one third.

Works how it was implemented then, ticking damage fights will benefit from it (Garalon, Will of Emperor, Spoils Klaxxi side, etc), any other major damage spikes will be beaten by TS/IB. Or hell maybe have any damage under 4% of your total HP be fully absorbed.

[Xorn]

To be honest, 10% damage reduction isn't that OP. I mean, you guys have seen the Lock talents, right? Soul Link basically a 20% damage reduction, and when coupled with Soul Leech, it's just ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Not exactly sure how a 100% reduction for 10s with a potential healing effect doesn't match up with a 90% reduction for 1 hit + 3s, let alone a one-hit-cooldown that can still potentially kill you.

What? Is my brain broken here?

Ice Block is baseline, so the initial use of it isn't competing with Greater Invis or Cauterize, but the reduced cooldown is. Hence: no.

[Polarthief]

I say just change Flameglow to:

Flameglow - Any damage taken that deals 7% or less of your HP is reduced by half. For players this is reduced by one third.

Works how it was implemented then, ticking damage fights will benefit from it (Garalon, Will of Emperor, Spoils Klaxxi side, etc), any other major damage spikes will be beaten by TS/IB. Or hell maybe have any damage under 4% of your total HP be fully absorbed.

That's... pretty underwhelming, especially when there's a lot of fights that deal ticking AoE over 10% of your HP. The 4% full absorption would never go through though because that's too good on specific fights.

To be honest, 10% damage reduction isn't that OP. I mean, you guys have seen the Lock talents, right? Soul Link basically a 20% damage reduction, and when coupled with Soul Leech, it's just ridiculous.

No, it's not, and yeah, Warlocks have Soul Link, Soul Leech, and doesn't Demon Armor block another 10% too? On top of all the self-healing and other things they have, Warlocks are basically plate-tank wearing Mages.

What? Is my brain broken here?

Ice Block is baseline, so the initial use of it isn't competing with Greater Invis or Cauterize, but the reduced cooldown is. Hence: no.

Ice Block alone is pretty underwhelming due to the very long cooldown, so it's only used in dire situations and definitely not every 5m. Seriously, tell me the last time you used Ice Block constantly on cooldown. When you can use it 2.5x as many times, it becomes a significantly better ability that you would find yourself using a lot more, and yes, it would match up with GI or Cauterize since you can stay blocked for a lot longer than GI and block a lot more damage. Is it going to be outright better than GI? Defensively, you bet your ass it is, although its cooldown is an additional 30s. Offensively, it's definitely worse since with GI you can immediately continue casting.

[Alexand3r]

Alright, since we've gotten no news in awhile, how about some just-for-fun speculation on what we could get for our talents, minor talents, and/or new spells? (and it's not off topic! Look at the title!)


Level 15 Talent: Improved Blink
- Replaces Presence of Mind
- +X% (original was 70%) Movement Speed for 3s after using Blink
- Would probably have a 15s cooldown tied to it so you can't get the bonus twice with rapid displacement
- (Alternative) Reduces the cooldown of Blink by 5s (down to 10s) (maybe locks the stun/bond removal at 15s?)
- I could also see either version as a minor talent, though IMO it'd work perfectly on our first tier, which is all about mobility

Level 30 Talent: Fiery Fortitude
- Replaces Flameglow
- Reduces all damage taken by 10%
- Reduces all damage taken by an additional 2% for 2s every time you take damage, stacking up to 5 times (Bonus 10% for 2s if you're constantly hit)
- This would be more or less ideal for negating those smaller, quicker, hits, though the %s may be a little too high. It's hard to balance with TS and IB being so good

Level 45 Talents: From CC to External
- Completely revamped; Ring of Frost becomes baseline (or outright removed because they said less CC)
- Ring of Frost (or other name if RoF becomes baseline): Drops a ring of Frost on the ground that freezes the bones of all enemies who stand in it, causing them to deal X% less damage (weaker than FJ because this is AoE)
- Ice Ward: Places a protective, icy, ward on a friendly target, making them take X% less damage for Y seconds
- (Alternative for Ice Ward): Places a protective, icy, ward on a friendly target. Enemies who attack a warded target deal X% less damage for Y seconds (Hat tip to Eye for an Eye from FFXIV)
- Frostjaw: Freezes the target's jaw, breaking their concentration and making them deal X% less damage for Y seconds (stronger than RoF since this is single-target)

Level 60 Talent: Improved Ice Block
- Replaces Cold Snap
- Reduces the cooldown of Ice Block by 3m (down to 2m)
- Allows you to move while inside your Ice Block, but prohibits you from doing any other action
- Heals you for 3% of your health every second you're inside your Ice Block (small incentive to stay in if you really need the extra healing, or just a nice boost to soloers)

There's a few that I would love to mess with

I do like the Improved Blink idea (maybe the rapid displacement glyph could be baked into it but would remove stuns and bonds only once every 15 seconds)
Fiery Fortitude seems nice too (it surely is better than the current Flameglow)
Not really sure about the Improved Ice Block talent though.

My ideas:

Flameglow replaced by Burning Vengeance.

Burning Vengeance:

Instant. 45 sec. cooldown.

Grants you an effect based on the Armour you are currently using.

Mage Armour: Reflects the next spell used against you.

Molten Armour: Disarms the next opponent that attacks you for 4 seconds.

Frost Armour: Freezes in place the next enemy that attacks you for 3 seconds.

In addition, all damage taken is reduced by 10% at all times. (Maybe 6% or 8% would be more balanced)

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What I think about our current talent grid:

- Ice Floes and Blazing Speed might stay.
- Presence of Mind will probably be removed or changed. As I wrote before, maybe a talent that could replace it could be Rapid Displacement (breaking stuns and bonds once every 15 seconds.) or maybe a talent that increases the range of your spells.
- Ice Barrier will probably stay.
- Flameglow will be changed and/or removed.
- Temporal Shield could stay or go away.
- The CC Tier will probably be completely removed and be replaced by something else (maybe a tier with Slow, Dragon's Breath and Deep Freeze?)
- Greater Invisibility could become baseline (without the damage reduction and DoT removal effects). Might be replaced by Alter Time, considering that they want to make it pure utility but then it would be quite similar to Cauterise.
- Cold Snap might be removed and/or changed too. If I recall, they stated that they don't like abilities that reset cooldowns (like Preparation and Readiness)

Maybe Cold Snap could be replaced by something like:

Frozen Core: The cooldown of your Ice Block is reduced by 2 minutes, the radius of your Frost Nova is increased by 100% and victims of your Frost Nova have their damage and healing reduced by 10% for 10 seconds. In addition, after a successful Blink, attacks made against you have a 70% chance to miss for 4 seconds (this effect would be called Shroud of Mist).

It's not that great but duh, I don't know. It could have additional effects to make it equal to the other talents in the tier.

[Polarthief]

Here's a bit of speculation on how most of our talents are going to change in some way:

- PoM I'd be shocked if it stays as is; most likely scrapped or put back to Arcane only
- Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
- Flameglow is a near guarantee to be scrapped, or at least changed heavily (the name is fine and it's a whole new concept as of late MoP anyways)
- L45 tier most likely to be completely scrapped or heavily changed. They want less CC and this tier is 99% useless in raiding (the 1% being those specific fights where CC matters).
- Cold Snap changed heavily, put back in Frost's toolkit, or scrapped completely.
- Cauterize I would love to see put back to Fire only. It's hard to choose between it and an active cooldown.
- Greater Invisibility I wish would be baseline, then this whole tier could be some new fun spell ability
- Mage Bombs are already unofficially confirmed to be consolidated to one talent.
- 2 L90 talents 100% confirmed to die off in a fire. The last one has a small "good" part of it staying, but whose to say if it stays a talent?

[Frost1129]

Here's a bit of speculation on how most of our talents are going to change in some way:

- PoM I'd be shocked if it stays as is; most likely scrapped or put back to Arcane only
- Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)
- Flameglow is a near guarantee to be scrapped, or at least changed heavily (the name is fine and it's a whole new concept as of late MoP anyways)
- L45 tier most likely to be completely scrapped or heavily changed. They want less CC and this tier is 99% useless in raiding (the 1% being those specific fights where CC matters).
- Cold Snap changed heavily, put back in Frost's toolkit, or scrapped completely.
- Cauterize I would love to see put back to Fire only. It's hard to choose between it and an active cooldown.
- Greater Invisibility I wish would be baseline, then this whole tier could be some new fun spell ability
- Mage Bombs are already unofficially confirmed to be consolidated to one talent.
- 2 L90 talents 100% confirmed to die off in a fire. The last one has a small "good" part of it staying, but whose to say if it stays a talent?

Baseline G. Invis sounds too good to be true. So I'm 100% ok with this occuring.

[Polarthief]

Baseline G. Invis sounds too good to be true. So I'm 100% ok with this occuring.

IMO the problem is our only "defensive" is a 5m cooldown that gets rarely used due to its power; you always want to save it for a good moment. Perhaps we could be given G Invis with a 30s-1m30s nerf on the cooldown since it'd be baseline, but we'd also get a bonus 3s on the duration due to the longer cooldown.

Most of that list is more like an educated guess than a shot-in-the-dark, especially with PoM, Flameglow, and Icy Floes. I'd also bet (a small amount of) money on L45 talents being either heavily changed or the entire tier becoming a new genre (like damaging fun ability or some shit).

[Mastamage]

Icy Floes will probably change a bit (charges are stupid; make it more like SWG or some shit)

Charges are perfectly fine. Having a move-while-casting spell on a long CD doesn't really help you when it's on that CD. Charges are waaaay better right now.

[Polarthief]

Charges are perfectly fine. Having a move-while-casting spell on a long CD doesn't really help you when it's on that CD. Charges are waaaay better right now.

Eh. It felt too awkward to me. Hell, we might not even have a need for it in WoD; who knows?

[Mastamage]

Eh. It felt too awkward to me. Hell, we might not even have a need for it in WoD; who knows?

The original state of IF was awkward. The current one has worked wonders for Arcane's movement issue and I think will survive to get to WoD. Great concept just bad implementation in its earlier build.

[Huevos]

The original state of IF was awkward. The current one has worked wonders for Arcane's movement issue and I think will survive to get to WoD. Great concept just bad implementation in its earlier build.

I agree, I much prefer charges, makes small amounts of movement a much smaller penalty. Only way I think it would work if built like SWG would be a much shorter duration on a much shorter cooldown, like 4 or 5 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown.

[Polarthief]

I agree, I much prefer charges, makes small amounts of movement a much smaller penalty. Only way I think it would work if built like SWG would be a much shorter duration on a much shorter cooldown, like 4 or 5 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. Then again, when I usually move, I go further than 5 yards (and I don't play Arcane )

[Frost1129]

IMO the problem is our only "defensive" is a 5m cooldown that gets rarely used due to its power; you always want to save it for a good moment. Perhaps we could be given G Invis with a 30s-1m30s nerf on the cooldown since it'd be baseline, but we'd also get a bonus 3s on the duration due to the longer cooldown.

Most of that list is more like an educated guess than a shot-in-the-dark, especially with PoM, Flameglow, and Icy Floes. I'd also bet (a small amount of) money on L45 talents being either heavily changed or the entire tier becoming a new genre (like damaging fun ability or some shit).

Ice block? I use ice block when G. invis and TS are down (or is just G.invis is down and im about to get hit hard). It's just a priority system in my mind, and keeping Ice Block always up for those super bad moments is the best use of it. The long CD doesn't really come into play.

inceasing the CD but increasing the dmg duration would just be a straight nerf. Right now you only use it to block high burst damage abilities. So anything beyond the first second or two isn't doing much.

PoM is up in the air, depending on what they do with fire. It'll never compete with ice flows in terms of mobile DPS, so if they make fire not care about it then PoM becomes complete shit and they'll have to rethink it.