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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Winkle View Post
    With all that in mind how about expanding on that idea and the similar proving grounds by tieing in lesser glyphs. I relaise the reward doesn't allow for character progression but i thought it was at least a nice extension of the green fire reward that could be applied to all classes and be based on a system already present in game.
    That's an interesting point about green fire, because it brings up how we're defining "meaningful progression." Some people would't put green fire in that category, but in my opinion (and that of a lot of Warlocks out there, given how much time they invest), it's pretty meaningful. Maybe part of the problem is that some people say "meaningful progression" meaning more along the lines of interesting/cool/worthwhile rewards (which could include things like, say, the oldschool dungeon sets), whereas others hear it and hear "welfare epics."

    That said, of course there are plenty of people who'd like free epics, but lumping those camps together is one of the things gives us hundreds of pages of flaming.
    Last edited by Lyoncet; 2013-11-08 at 05:13 PM.

  2. #42
    I'll be honest, I haven't been a casual in years. But honestly, I think a system like Tier0/.5 would work fine to give casuals meaningful character progression.

    For those of you who don't remember what that was, tier 0 was a tier set that dropped from multiple dungeons (most completed in a raid format because of how difficult they were). Some pieces dropping off one boss or another, competing with only one other class (tier shoulders). However, the "big" pieces dropped only off of the final boss(s) of a dungeon. Pants from Baron Rivendare, Chest from Drakkisath, and Helm from Darkmaster from scholomance.

    Now these items were good enough to make your character feel strong, and honestly were very difficult to get a complete set with (because tier had a 100% drop chance, which tier it was who knew). Giving incentive for a casual gamer to run them over, and over, and over until they complete the set. Then after they complete the set, they can go to some quest giver in the heart of an alliance (Or Horde if you're a dirty Orc :P) city, to accept a quest to upgrade one piece at a time, some pieces may require just "large" amounts of gold that could take time to farm up, others, like chest/legs/helms, require you go out into the world to obtain rare materials that take a group to obtain. I'm talking about blood of heroes from EPL, enchanted thorium (1 day CD per bar, that required mining thorium and enchanting), a hide off of a boss that needs to be skinned.

    This tier would be good enough, whatever blizzard decides is good enough (probably flex ilvl). And this tier would complete 5 slots of difficult items to obtain (Chest, shoulders, gloves, pants, helm) the remaining items, bracers, belt, cloak, one ring, and one trinket, would be completed from gathering rare items off of bosses (Beast's hide anyone?), and using expensive/rare patterns to craft the items of appropriate ilvl (matches the quested gear).

    But Ravenderp, how long would this process take? Well, depending on how much you go at it, a month or two, up to the entire length of a tier. (The latter being the goal, to discourage raiders from wanting to do it.) Basically the gear would be obsolete by the time they complete the process of obtaining it is the goal. Giving a casual like me something to work towards, that doesn't fall out of the sky off of a random mob on timeless isle.

    Ideally blizzard would introduce a quest (or new dungeons to start the process over again), in which the gear can be replaced by the next tier's equivalent. Now here's the problem with this plan, dungeons are too easy for this, so the difficulty would have to be shifted to the upgrading process rather than obtaining the base gear. (Or make challenge modes effectively drop the gear) This stuff isn't meant to fall into the hands of someone who can't comprehend how his class works, just meant for the guy who could easily wipe the floor with half the "raiders' on his realm, but just doesn't have the time to commit to a set schedule, or just doesn't want to raid.

    TL;DR,

    Tier gear drops from end of dungeon bosses, after completing the entire set a quest is unlocked to upgrade it, this quest requires rare materials that are very difficult to get solo. This gear takes ideally an entire tier to obtain, is flex mode equivalent ilvl, other items for the character are obtained through crafting using rare/expensive materials and recipes. The items, by the time they'd be obtained, would be obsolete for raiders so they wouldn't feel compelled to bum rush them at the start of every tier.

    If a person is standing around in this gear they should feel proud of having a full set, just because of how difficult it was to obtain.
    Last edited by Ravendale; 2013-11-08 at 05:18 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Koreche View Post
    Heriocs isn't for casuals, so saying that was dumb.
    Depends on how you define hardcore or casual. Some people are hardcore in that they're good, skilled, and dedicated, but don't like or can't commit to raids. Those people would probably be good candidates for, and really enjoy, heroic 5-mans that take coordination.

    [edit: unless you mean heroic raids, then yeah. Not for casuals, and I don't think anybody is saying they are.]

    Actually come to think of it, "casual" and "hardcore" are such overbroad, imprecise terms that a lot of the animosity here probably comes from people using that term to mean really different things.
    Last edited by Lyoncet; 2013-11-08 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koreche View Post
    Heriocs isn't for casuals, so saying that was dumb.

    The dailys were optional, as a casual raider I didn't even do them until I killed sha of fear normal...

    if you are not raiding why do you need the legendary cloak so bad? GTFO it....
    As a casual you don't need the cloak, that is correct. I don't see anyone complaining that they didn't get it except returning raiders. I didn't even bring it up :/

    The dailies were not optional if you wanted to progress your character outside of raiding because all the valor gear was tied to the reputations. That doesn't even include if you just wanted to get high end enchants that many casuals buy. You had to do Golden Lotus dailies, then the August Celestial dailies. If you wanted anything other than heroic 5 mans, you had to do those dailies or grind LFR endlessly. Not very casual friendly.

    And you're correct that heroics are not for casuals, I was nearly pointing out that as heroic raiders we have access to much more content than they do. People still want to take the little they have away.

  5. #45
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I summed up my thoughts about this a couple of days ago in the other thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm fond of saying that World of Warcraft is a big enough game to encompass more than one purpose. And that's true. An end game that is not completely built around raiding would be welcome by many players. I'm not saying that anything about raiding necessarily needs to change but a wider variety of things of appropriate difficulty that provide good rewards and a chance for people to progress characters over a long time is not undermining 'the entire purpose of WoW.' It does not need to be exclusively solo but something that includes solo as well as small group content wouldn't hurt anything.
    There's any number of ways to do this. One of my favorite ideas is to rework professions so that you can have more of them on one toon and enhance professions so that you can build viable end game gear for yourself along the way. I see no reason whatsoever other than "It's always been this way" for the best stuff to be gated behind raids. I think raids are important but the emphasis on them being practically everything at end game needs to be looked at.

    With more sandbox content obtaining good gear or the means to make same could be opened up to much wider possibilities than now.
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  6. #46
    High Overlord Kornstyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    This thread makes me sick:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...citing-endgame

    I don't understand what casuals want anymore. Not only do they have access to watered down raids that are easier than Mists of Pandaria Heroics, but they still want more.

    Honestly, when LFR first started, here's how it went:

    - The majority of people knew what they were doing but didn't care since they didn't know anyone in the group.
    - They would tag the boss then AFK
    - They would continue to AFK and refuse to roll on items.
    - If they could, then they would hit need on the item.
    Rinse and repeat.

    Sure, LFR isn't in the best spot now, but I am so tired of people saying "tanks get abused in LFR"... no they don't. The worst part is, every single thread I've seen of a tank complaining has been a tank with no reforges, no enchants, no gems and they usually don't know the fight.

    Well no shit you're getting abused, I would kick you too. As a tank, you can't come to a fight and expect everyone to be patient while someone explains the fight to you. You have 24 other people in there who are ready to go and want to get out of the cesspool (raiding lol) that LFR is.

    If you honestly think a tank is getting abused in LFR, please join a competent normal or heroic guild. You'll find that your "tank abuse" is far better in LFR than it is in a guild. You see, in LFR, they just boot you and be done with you. In Normal, you've got 9 to 24 other people pissed off because they brought an incompetent tank who didn't know what they were doing. So if you really think you being removed from a LFR is abuse, I urge you to join a normal guild and try your crap there.

    Honestly, LFR in my opinion is far more than they should be offering for casuals, but apparently that's still not enough.

    Casuals Have:
    - Unrated Battlegrounds (and now access to high end pvp gear that anyone can get)
    - Pet Battles
    - Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete
    - Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish
    - BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week

    WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT? Good god man.. I honestly hope Rob Pardo and the new team working on the expansion says "sucks to be you all" and does the following:

    - Cans LFR: Just removes it completely...
    - Brings back some form of attunements
    - Brings back CC and challenge to Heroic Dungeons.

    If you don't have a couple of hours a day to devote to a MMORPG... then don't pay $15 a month to play a MMORPG.. it honestly makes no sense to me why people who have no time to play the game would continue to pay for it..

    /rant

    Now proceed to flame me, tell me how your $15 matters, how wrong I am, how LFR is a wonderful tool, how casuals run this game, how I'm an elitist prick, etc.
    They are trying to Change the whole game man......They ruined the game...But you know what??? It's no their fault, it's Blizzard's fault for listening to them and implimenting all those shitty features....The game changed it's not an MMO anymore....

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    As stated in the first post, we want non-raid progression content that would be as rich, as rewarding, as interesting, and as lasting as raids.

    By "progression" we understand a process that makes your character more powerful. In WoW, that means gear and, to much lesser extent, enchants, gems, and the likes.

    Going through your list:

    Unrated Battlegrounds -- too short for a progression, the gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear, plus this is PVP (own can of worms)
    Pet Battles -- isn't suitable as a non-raid progression, because this isn't progression, your character doesn't get more powerful
    Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete -- isn't suitable as a non-raid progression, because its raids
    Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish -- too short for a progression, gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear
    BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week -- too short for a progression, gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear

    You can add Brawler's Guild and Proving Grounds here too. Neither is a progression, similarly to pet battles.
    The main progression path of WoW and many other MMO-RPGS is around Raiding. Raid is a large group of players who are trying to achieve a specific goal (Kill A Villain). If you don't want to partitipate into a raid group and you want to progress in a solo-like way, WHY ARE YOU PLAYIING THIS GAME???? If you don't like to interact with other people then stop playing WoW and go play Single-Player games.....
    Last edited by Kornstyle; 2013-11-08 at 06:15 PM.

  7. #47
    Lol. Non-raid for progressing your character. With the implication being more gear = progress. My question is what the fuck are you actually progressing for? Raiders gobble up as much gear as possible so that they can be competitive in the next tier of raiding, and maintain a form of social status within their guild community. Its great that non-raiders actually want to work towards something. However I don't understand what that would be. You want dungeon sets to make your dungeons easier? Or immersive quests that make questing easier? Why? Those things are already scaled difficulty-wise to meet blue and green gear levels, and have never been exclusive enough, or long lived enough to be classified as "end content." Everyone gets to quest, everyone gets to do dungeons. Hence another reason why we raid-- because guess what casuals? We've already done all that.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/guild/stormrage/No_Helmet_Required/

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    Lol. Non-raid for progressing your character. With the implication being more gear = progress.
    Not necessarily.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    It's become apparent by reading this post that most people want raid-like gear by not actually raiding. Personally I don't see this as plausible OR fair seeing as I have to cram my studies/gym/personal life into order so that I may find some time to raid per week and these people want it to be readily accessible without putting in the same amount of effort others do. Dungeon sets aren't a bad idea as I was fond of them as well but as soon as it's released I can see people moaning about them within a week for not being as good as raid gear.

    This list goes on and on of what players want - each of them differing from the previous. Blizzard can't and I don't believe SHOULD do this as for every person who likes something there is another 1000 bound to hate it. I rate people should be more appreciative of what Blizzard has already given us and not keep begging for more.
    It's only raid-like gear because it's the gear that drops from raids. If Blizzard had created a dungeon feature that was just as tough as raids and dropped the same gear when the game came out, it would just be called "endgame gear". Perhaps if people could be open minded enough to realize that "endgame" =/ "raiding" we could finally find some sort of progression in this conversation. Until that happens, it'll continue to be an argument based in ignorance.

  10. #50
    Epic! Warlord Booty's Avatar
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    This is an MMO, not a single player scroller.

  11. #51
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    So basically, people want another form of raiding, that isn't raiding, that's easier to do than LFR but more rewarding than LFR, that's both group and solo content, that's friendly to alts.

    Well, good luck guys, here's hoping the developers are actually God.

    The truth is, casuals don't know what they want.
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  12. #52
    The main progression path of WoW and many other MMO-RPGS is around Raiding. Raid is a large group of players who are trying to achieve a specific goal (Kill A Villain). If you don't want to partitipate into a raid group and you want to progress in a solo-like way, WHY ARE YOU PLAYIING THIS GAME???? If you don't like to interact with other people then stop playing WoW and go play Single-Player games.....
    I think you misrepresent the fact that not everyone needs a set goal in this game. I remember in vanilla there were people who were 100% happy and content with working professions and using the gear from there to make it easier to hoard absurd amounts of gold back then. (My GM had 5 epic mounts on 3 different characters.)

    People can't work professions to the same level anymore because the gear is antiquated before it can even be made. (Niche gear needed for specific fights, namely resists). Wanna go to MC as a shaman/hunter? Better get your black dragonscale set and what not. That is done and gone, thankfully, that was character development/gear acquisition without raiding back in vanilla.

    Remember, not everyone desires raiding, hell, not everyone desires gear, some people play this game to immerse themselves in a fantasy world and to play with a close nit group of friends, like I did back in vanilla. Don't represent raiding as the end all, be all goal of every player in the world (of warcraft), it has forced itself into that position the last few expansions yes, but it wasn't always that way.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    So basically, people want another form of raiding, that isn't raiding, that's easier to do than LFR but more rewarding than LFR, that's both group and solo content, that's friendly to alts.
    Um, no.

    Problem with this line (along with being grossly exaggerated, and often just false) is that at its very best, it's clumping a bunch of poorly-thought-out ideas from various casuals together, then attributing each of those ideas to the entire group. I don't think we have to get into why that's not productive.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    So basically, people want another form of raiding, that isn't raiding, that's easier to do than LFR but more rewarding than LFR, that's both group and solo content, that's friendly to alts.

    Well, good luck guys, here's hoping the developers are actually God.

    The truth is, casuals don't know what they want.
    Another misconception that "casuals" want easy content. Everytime these discussions begin, the misconceptions come out of the woodwork.

  15. #55
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyoncet View Post
    Um, no.

    Problem with this line (along with being grossly exaggerated, and often just false) is that at its very best, it's clumping a bunch of poorly-thought-out ideas from various casuals together, then attributing each of those ideas to the entire group. I don't think we have to get into why that's not productive.
    So can someone then provide us with a definitive idea that appeals to this undefined casual playerbase? In addition, could someone tell me why this playerbase is playing a game they're so dissatisfied with?
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-11-08 at 06:36 PM.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kornstyle View Post
    The main progression path of WoW and many other MMO-RPGS is around Raiding. Raid is a large group of players who are trying to achieve a specific goal (Kill A Villain). If you don't want to partitipate into a raid group and you want to progress in a solo-like way, WHY ARE YOU PLAYIING THIS GAME???? If you don't like to interact with other people then stop playing WoW and go play Single-Player games.....
    It always amazes me how people "read" something and then post something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the post they quoted. Also, there aren't two facets of the game. It's not either a raid group or solo. There is plenty of group content that doesn't not revolve around being in a raid group. The person that you quoted specifically lists Heroics. Meaning heroic dungeons. Meaning groups of 5 players. Meaning less than a raid sized group and more than solo content. "Casual" does not mean "solo". How you came to that conclusion is beyond me because it's not rational in any sense of the word. There is a happy medium. And it can most definitely include group content without having to resort to be in a raid group.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    So can someone then provide us with a definitive idea that appeals to this undefined casual playerbase?
    No, because it's too big a community. Threads like this are here to discuss interesting ways of meeting the needs of that segment of the playerbase. It's like asking to point to an idea that would appeal to every European, and if we can't find they can all sit down, shut up, and take what they can get.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyoncet View Post
    No, because it's too big a community. Threads like this are here to discuss interesting ways of meeting the needs of that segment of the playerbase. It's like asking to point to an idea that would appeal to every European, and if we can't find they can all sit down, shut up, and take what they can get.
    Can anyone then at least imply that any idea would be beneficial to the majority of this undefined segment of the playerbase?
    I am the lucid dream
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    So can someone then provide us with a definitive idea that appeals to this undefined casual playerbase? In addition, could someone tell me why this playerbase is playing a game they're so dissatisfied with?
    Yeah. Go back to the days of WotLK and Cata when you could run dungeons and get current iLevel gear. Or make tough dungeons (similar in difficulty to Challenge Modes) that you can't queue for in LFD that drops raid quality gear. Or, like OP stated, dynamic events that give currency for current iLevel gear. There are so many different ways to go about creating that type of content.

  20. #60
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    Yeah. Go back to the days of WotLK and Cata when you could run dungeons and get current iLevel gear. Or make tough dungeons (similar in difficulty to Challenge Modes) that you can't queue for in LFD that drops raid quality gear. Or, like OP stated, dynamic events that give currency for current iLevel gear. There are so many different ways to go about creating that type of content.
    How do you know that this would appeal? Do you have any evidence? Or is this something you only know would appeal to you?
    I am the lucid dream
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