The original poster threw that definition out as an attempt to validate his argument that if you do not like group content then MMO's are not the game for you. I'm just pointing out that the definition (taken literally) does not support what his is trying to prove. Now, if he could demonstrate that group content is necessary for 'participation' then he might be to prove his hypothesis.
Now, I do agree that MMO's have a strong group component, but that is not indicated in the definition, and I now have to wonder just because it has always been done that way doesn't necessarily make it right. There may be other models of MMO play that focus less on group content, but are still viable.
Garrison seems very fleshed out and something that should keep people busy for a continuous period of time.
That and the fact that the official site announces that you can now get random bonus rewards for completing quests such as epic gear etc.
The flex-across the board also seems to cater to the acknowledgment that not many people might want to commit to raidshedules. Raidshedules are only going to be a big thing still if you're into mythic raiding it appears.
Feminism is Nationalism with a Gender twist
Everything you want is not what an MMO is about, Go play fucking final fantasy or some other game. You're describing Solo PvE content or PVP content. It's asinine what you are saying in your post. All I get from this is "we pay for WoW so we want the game to be what we have time for/are interested in" Just because I pay for something doesn't mean it should be changed to what I want. I get what I paid for. You paid for an MMORPG, stop crying and man the fuck up.
Feminism is Nationalism with a Gender twist
I think the answer to this debate is in other non-raiding activities dropping current Flex to Normal ilvl raid gear. Here's a list of content that in a perfect world could see progression just like raiding does:
Daily Quests (myself I say change to weekly's like Timeless has)
I think there are people who would like to have end game content that feels rewarding the way raids do, can help progress your character the way raids do, but not necessarily be raiding. We want options is all.
BTW, do we already have this with Challenge Dungeons and Heroic Scenarios? I myself have not really dabbled in them. Also, I think Brawlers Guild is INCREDIBLY underutilized by Blizz and by casuals who want to progress in a challenging solo environment, but the complaint is it's too difficult. ( But to me that's what progression is, conquering difficult challenges)
I really hope that next xpac those of us who do not heroic raid for whatever reason can mix all of these in and any can help us progress.
TLDR: variety is the spice of life, especially for casuals and our endgame.
Last edited by jmeck2725; 2013-11-09 at 02:48 PM.
WoW does not revolve around raiding...or at least it used to not. in WoW vanilla that was most certainly not the case until MUCH later into its life...
The problem is that Blizz has constantly pulled to that direction, and has left people getting burnt out and sick of it.
My stance to the OP is this:
We do not want to remove challenge, we just want an alternative challenge that's NOT RAIDING. There's more to an MMORPG than just raiding, and Raiding is not the only solution in an MMORPG to acquire upgrades.
What you, Rda, want is not an MMORPG. What you want is Call of Duty with upgradable swords. That is not an MMORPG.
An MMORPG is a virtual world that encompass DIFFERENT playstyles, the Fisherman enters dangerous areas to get food for the PVEer, the PVEer gets rare craftable materials to sell to the PVPer, the PVPer protects the Fisherman from other players.... it's that kinda deal.
Isn't it immature that you call him Donald "Dump"?
I agree, it's childish and stupid - and that's my point. it's meant as a deliberate mockery of his blatant disrespect via using "Crooked Hillary", and thus I can call him "Dump" since he dumps his campaign promises, dumps campaign managers, dumps his wives, wants to dump the first amendment, dumps common-sense war ethics and dumps the use of proper English in favor of a mongrel white-trash dialect.
Ah, well, maybe today's sessions will bring something.
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I agree with your post in general.
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Alright, regarding garrisons and followers, based on yesterday's panels - you don't take them to real quests, instances or raids that your character goes to. When Blizzard say that you can send them to quests, instances or raids, they mean some imaginary quests, instances or raids that you won't see. Your followers will spend some time there and "do" them, whatever that means, then return with rewards.
So, yes, that's just a minigame. You'd still build your garrison and use it to try and farm either materials (like on the farm) or gear (can't do this on the farm now), of course, but that's just a side distraction like pet battles.
In sum, we are getting less 5-man instances, we are getting a minigame, and we are getting more interesting (but faster) leveling to 100. Everything related to progression ties to raids, as usual. If you didn't like MOP and were running out of things to do there, you probably won't like WOD and will run out of things to do there too, quite quickly. What's that: two weeks at most to the level cap even if you are playing 14 hours per week, then one week getting 95% of all there is to get from heroic instances, scenarios and events, and then what - LFR and other raids again??
Meh again. Not sure I will wait for the next expansion.
Right, allow me to explain my experiences.
I used to be a hardcore raider back in TBC. We raided BT and SWP and were third or fourth to kill KJ. On our server, eu-kazzak, that was quite a big deal since we had guilds like showdown, slashcry, incorporated, absolute, etc...
As a student I had lots of time so being hardcore (raiding 5 days a week) was possible.
During the LK raid, my time started to be more valuable, yet I didn't want to be pushed out of heroic (challenging) raiding just because I didn't have enough time to invest in logistics. So we forced it anyway and managed to kill Anub heroic and LK heroic. Just 2(?) other guilds had done that and they were raiding 6 days a week. Right after killing LK the inevitable happend: People got burned out, girlfriends reached the 'over 9000' whining point (and quite frankly, you can't blame them), jobs were suffering, etc...
We sat together and knew a change was in order. We were adults, had responsibilities towards other persons and couldn't spend every evening at the pc. So we decided to raid 2 evenings a week. Cata brought quality 10 man raiding and in those 2 days we managed to kill Rag heroic in a timely fashion. This wasn't stress free, mind you. The raids per sé weren't the problem though. It was getting 10 man together. Most of our time was claimed by recruiting that 1 healer or tank that suddenly left. Again, logistics.
We want nail hard content that takes time and effort to best. But we'd got so extremely tired of the recruiting game, we'd got so extremely tired of having to cancel raids due to lack of players that we threw the towel in the ring and quit. Ragnaros heroic was our last significant achievement. All my friends, including myself froze our WoW accounts in the hopes we could one day come back and do mythically hard, tear inducing content with just us: 5 buddies who've been playing, fighting and drinking together since we were in diapers (the drinking started a wee bit later though).
My wall of text (I apologize) is an effort to explain that 'casuals' aren't bad players per definition. This breed of casual players are in fact skilled and want extremely hard content to challenge them. They just don't have the time to form a group as large as 20 and keep them together.
Would it really be bad to have easy normal 5 man dungeons and extremely hard heroic 5 man dungeons (raids)? Does the number of people that participate really have to define raiding?
Our breed of players has 0 content in WoW's current form. LFR is too easy, dungeons are too easy, flex is too easy and normal/heroic require at least 10 players.
Last edited by nocturnus; 2013-11-11 at 10:23 AM.