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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans
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    Endgame for Casuals: New Thread with Summary Suggestions for WoD (Updated)

    We had a number of threads on the endgame for casuals, most notably, this one:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...citing-endgame

    The thread has gotten quite long and it is evident that a lot of the discussion is going in circles, because, well, the thread is quite long and people don't want to read it from the beginning. So here is a new thread with the catch-all post at the beginning, which I would update, which would hopefully help us avoid repetitive questions and answers and move the discussion forward.

    The purpose of the thread is to provide Blizzard with some feedback regarding the current state of the game for casuals and communicate ideas for them to improve the game, as well as simply exchange ideas on the matter.

    Keep it constructive.


    Main Message: Need Non-Raid Progression

    The main message is: right now the main way to progress your character in the game is raids, a lot of people are dissatisfied with that (many reasons) and would like to have a way to progress their characters which wouldn't be raids. Quoting UnifiedDivide (thanks, man, you said it really well):

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23219494
    "... quite a lot of people don't even WANT to raid. Yet they are told they must put a few hours a week aside so that they can do it rather than somehow being a "whiny QQ entitled casual".

    What casuals need, is more forms of meaningful progression at endgame. Blizzard shoving everyone into raiding is pointless. Not every one is meant to be a raider and not everyone even wants to be a raider. Hence the reason you still don't have 100% of the player base as raiders, in even LFR formats.

    Seriously, stop thinking everyone should raid, Blizzard! Give us some new progression!"


    Suggestions

    It's important to understand that nobody advocates for giving away raid-level epics for little or no effort. Yes, we are talking about things other than raids, and most people understand by that solo or small-group content. But, of course, if a particular encounter in a non-raid solo or small-group progression drops a raid-level epic, completing that encounter should be as demanding to personal skill as downing a raid boss. In the ideal case, a non-raid solo or small-group progression would be as big as the current raid progression, and would span from encounters whose difficulty matches that of LFR, which would reward LFR-level epics, to encounters whose difficulty matches that of flex raids and normal raids, which would reward flex-level and normal-level epics, all the way to encounters whose difficulty matches that of heroic raids, which, yes, would reward heroic-level epics.

    Here are some suggestions for what that non-raid solo or small-group progression could be (I am only quoting key fragments if they are short, all of the posts are worth reading in full, so click through):

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23223136
    "Using their own system, based off of other games experiments of dynamic content; they could create something that could have more of a pick up and leave feeling that some require without pissing on the established paradigm.

    In another thread, I mentioned a way to do this in WoW. Say they decide they want to rebuild SMC and fix Exo. They set up dynamic events including gathering turn ins from cloth to herbs to leather, kill/collects, and then you also get invasions, escorts, supporting offensive strikes, etc that happen as world/zone events. Have people out in the world, working together. The reward system would be a combination of pets, mounts, vanity, and 'world' pve gear with set bonuses that would be specifically helpful to world pve (mount speed bonuses, run speed bonuses, cd resets, etc) that would not be active in instanced content (dungeons, raids, arenas, bgs). You could set the ilvl around lfr/flex for the easily gathered items, then make some stuff much harder to get both time and difficulty wise fit in the normal to somewhere under heroic raid ilvl. Put this behind intense group activities with tough mobs or an occasional zone boss that can be failed that either doesn't always spawn, or you have to complete a large set of objectives that makes it possible to not always finish unless people organize (and would have to scale to people actively partaking in the zone events)."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23224447
    "An alternative option would be a path of the hero. A rank system like guilds have but for your character. For doing different trials, quests, dungeons, challenges, etc...etc.. you earn different ranks of your class. It would start at your max level (100) however it shouldn't feel like leveling your character all over again or feel like its required. It could give out a mixture of rewards and achievements. Rank ____ causes ___ spell to do 5% damage increase/healing increase or mana regen/dodge or rank ___ unlocks a 2% ____ stat increase."

    My addition: the above could be done so that it DOES NOT work in raids and for PVP, so that raiders and PVP'ers aren't forced to do it. Also: this was more or less Blizzard's idea with Path of Titans, sans the bit on not working in raids and PVP.

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23229429
    "A 5-man dungeon endgame model with a tier-set system, complex crafting and rare mechanics added (certain ingredients only dropping from certain mobs and bosses at a low ratio). Instead of silly challenge modes add a system like in Diablo3 where you can keep increasing the difficulty of the dungeons which increases the dropchance and quality of gear and mats required to craft useful gear or to get access to higher tiersets.

    Something like that."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23230260
    "Rift has a few means of progression at end game that I like. It has the planar attunement system, where you get points/perks through xp for completing raids, dungeons, daily quests, etc...it's account wide and gives you some nice boosts to spell power, hp, mount speed, walk speed, swim speed etc. And then for pvpers there is a conquest system where you improve your character's power by participating in large scale pvp events (conquest...somewhat similar to Wintergrasp during wrath). I could see planar attunement or a similar system working well in a game like WoW."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23234232
    "Have 5 mans scale. Scaling mob strength, health and difficulty of pulls.
    Have bosses with more abilities and the odd rare (and stronger) mob in the trash packs with slightly better gear drops.

    E.g (if the average gear ilvl of the players entering is):
    bare ilvl needed - standard mobs
    +10 - standard mobs, a little more health, more cash, bosses drop +5 ilvl higher gear
    +20 - standard mobs, some packs harder though (e.g more casters/cleavers less basic melee). Bosses get 2nd tier of abilities and drop +15 ilvl higher gear
    +30 - harder mobs, many harder pulls. Bosses get 3rd tier of abilities and drop lowish ilvl epics

    and so on..."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23241168
    "Think about something like this, for example: what if they take the concept of Brawler's Guild and design a lot of small boss encounters, like, 100 of them, then assign every boss a location in the world, make them solo-visible only (similarly to archeology sites), then spawn 4 or 5 of them every day (one per continent)? A casual player would have to find these bosses and kill them, for a chance at raid-level loot (eg, 10% to drop a normal-raid-level epic). Some bosses would be easier, some more difficult, some next to impossible for certain specs, etc. Some would go in circles, some would stay. There could be NPCs telling them what bosses are up for a fee. Could work?

    There could be other systems like that as well, and they could drop not gear, but, say, raid-level recipes or materials, collectionables, etc."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23237536
    "Here's another idea for making dungeons interesting: reward completing dungeons with three people, two people or solo. Here's how to reward, too: right now, some bosses in heroics can drop epics (although the ilvls of these epics aren't high) -- make these epics have the same ilvl as drops in normal raids, and make the drop chance 2% if you complete a heroic with 5 or 4 people, 10% if you complete it with 3 people, 20% if you complete it with 2 people, and 30% if you complete it solo. One drop a day per-person, too."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23260415
    "If they made the Timeless Isle five times as large as it is now, and gave out normal-raid-level gear (might limit the drop rate to 10% until you get the first drop per week, 2% until the second drop, 0% after that, for example, or do something similar), it would have worked better. If they have also made rare spawns solo-bound (like the archeology sites), and arranged it so that you'd get simpler bosses in the first weeks and progressively more complex bosses after you defeat the simpler ones, I think they would have had a winner for 5.4."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23264941
    "Seriously just bring back dungeon tier sets sure make them 5 set like raid sets are now. But make it upgradable through a good quest line (unlocked at say 2 piece/4 piece)

    That along with some profession recipes dropping in dungeons along with forges/anvils/alchemy labs used for specific crafting items that are only located in dungeons would be a pretty cool change. Just make those crafting areas after the end boss in a dungeon so the person who wants it completes the dungeon in LFD first."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23268441
    "Epic Quests!
    Epic quests are a set of weekly quests a player can participate in, that will tell a short story, resulting in rewards based on your level of completion class/spec specific rewards. My idea here would be to make them timetravel based events, where players go back in time and participate an event from warcraft lore. As they progress through they receive rewards that upgrade as you hand in each level. Epic quests will basically read: "Travel back in time and complete the events of X." You will also receive the starting quest for a long chain. One epic quest will be available each week, you will have to complete any current epic quest to pick up the next one.

    During these quests there will be spawnpoints of current resources (ghost iron etc) pet battles to be had, etc.

    For instance: ..."

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23235746
    "If the developers don't want to create new tiers of dungeons like the Wrath era, then why not create open world scenarios that reward decent gear? Something along the lines of Battlefield Barrens but across multiple zones. Make it exciting, make the situations dire if failure occurs. Make it rewarding when success occurs. Some may say other MMOs offer things like this, but why can't WoW? Add more world PvP similar to Krasarang Wilds but across multiple zones. Make the successes count. Allow low level characters to participate (perhaps via a buff when "open world scenarios" are active). Make the whole WORLD bustle with activity. Perhaps give characters progress with how many open world scenarios they participate in, make them count! Make them something players would WANT to participate in, levelcapped AND leveling toons. The game should be more than just raiding. It should be something that brings players of all levels together in a significant way. Make the rares in each zone scale to appropriate levels of the players attacking them. Make them more like the Zandalari Warbringers and Scounts. Give low-level players a buff if a levelcapped players are attacking them and make drops individual like Timeless-rares. Add Timeless-like chests in every single zone that scale with player level (IE levelcapped players get appropriate gear + justice/valor or new currency, leveling toons get appropriate gear + justice/valor or new currency). Make leveling toons earn rewards that benefit them at endgame, etc."


    Here is also a very good post on what WoW already had, that could have been developed into a non-raid progression (there were more posts along these lines, of course):

    --- http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23221385

    There are many other posts on the matter in this and other threads, too, the above is just a subset of them.


    FAQ

    Q: You simply want raid-level gear for little or no effort, stop asking for it.
    A: No. We don't want raid-level gear for little or no effort, we want a way to progress by completing challenges of increasing difficulty, with multiple gear rewards along the way. You know, how raids are, just in a small-group or solo context. The game has plenty of things that require little or no effort already, that content doesn't last, that's why we want something else.

    Q: What do you need the gear for, anyway? If you don't do raids, you don't need raid gear.
    A: First and foremost, again, we ask for a non-raid progression, not for gear. We want multiple *challenges* of increasing difficulty, with the most difficult of them requiring raid-level gear and raid-level personal skill to overcome, and only then we want these challenges to reward us raid-level *gear*. Second, it is not strictly true that if one doesn't do raids, he or she also doesn't need raid gear. If you don't have raid gear, you are heavily penalised in many areas of the game outside of raids: you will have problems soloing or duoing many of the old raids (Cata and entry-level MOP), you will likely have problems in the last tiers of the Brawler's Guild, you will be much less efficient in farming high-level areas, like the Timeless Isle, etc. We want a non-raid progression to make us as powerful as raiders in the world. We like the world, but we don't like raids, and it is unfair to force us to raid to enjoy the world to the full, the way raiders do.

    Q: They have done LFR and now flex specifically so that baddies, er, people like you could raid. What else do you want?
    A: We don't want to raid. We just aren't interested in that. Many of us have raided normals or higher before, many have done LFR. We aren't interested in raids in their current state, for whatever reason, we want a non-raid progression.

    Q: The game has lots of casual content, why don't you do that? Do pet battles, for example.
    A: Pet battles are great, but they don't progress your character in that your character doesn't get more powerful. A lot of content in the game is like that. That's OK, we just want content that makes our characters *progressively* stronger. We want a progression, a non-raid one.

    Q: WoW revolves around raiding, that's how the game is. If you don't like it, stop playing.
    A: That's fine, just realize that you might be saying this to the majority of the playerbase.


    I will update the post as the threads go with more links, suggestions, and possibly with the FAQ.

    Thanks for your time and keep this going.
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-08 at 06:55 PM.

  2. #2
    It's become apparent by reading this post that most people want raid-like gear by not actually raiding. Personally I don't see this as plausible OR fair seeing as I have to cram my studies/gym/personal life into order so that I may find some time to raid per week and these people want it to be readily accessible without putting in the same amount of effort others do. Dungeon sets aren't a bad idea as I was fond of them as well but as soon as it's released I can see people moaning about them within a week for not being as good as raid gear.

    This list goes on and on of what players want - each of them differing from the previous. Blizzard can't and I don't believe SHOULD do this as for every person who likes something there is another 1000 bound to hate it. I rate people should be more appreciative of what Blizzard has already given us and not keep begging for more.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    This list goes on and on of what players want - each of them differing from the previous. Blizzard can't and I don't believe SHOULD do this as for every person who likes something there is another 1000 bound to hate it. I rate people should be more appreciative of what Blizzard has already given us and not keep begging for more.
    You are missing the point. These are *options* for Blizzard to consider. Noone asks them to implement everything or even the majority of these things, that would probably be a waste, since the purpose of either of these options is the same - to provide a non-raid progression path for those who want it. It is totally cool if Blizzard implement just one out of the listed options, and not necessarily word for word.

  4. #4
    I want something i can keep leveling up in (randomized dungeons) with a paragonish like system from diablo but i understand stats wise that wouldn't work in WoW but give me goodies/random loot from doing it like old tier lookalikes to transmog, random mount, ...

    good god i think that would be so nice if we could find something like this.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans nocturnus's Avatar
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    It's not impossible to make 1-, 2- or 3-man heroic raids.

    The warlock green fire quest is a good example of decently challenging content for 1 player. Expanding the means for progression has no drawbacks, just benefits. The current problem with challenging content is that you need to set specific raid days. Many players, don't want to feel compelled to log in at a specific time 2 to 3 times a week. They want to log in when they have time and do relevant content.

    Please note, this might be a casual approach in reference to time but it doesn't inherently mean these people don't enjoy difficult content. Heck, I wiped for quite a few hours on the green fire boss myself. I didn't need to plan anything, I did it because I had the time.

    My point is that Blizzard can and should introduce normal and heroic content for solo players or small groups 3.

  6. #6
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Seeing as you obviously put so much effort into writing that I took all the time to read and here is what I think, short of anything outside a raid giving raid level gear and any solo content giving raid level gear or remotely close, I liked a few of the ideas.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  7. #7
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Does WoW need to offer all kinds of progression for all kinds of players though? I'm not sure any game can do this to a satisfactory level and indeed I cant think of any other playerbase that thinks the game they play should, I don't get it.
    I am the lucid dream
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  8. #8
    People miss the obvious Facts: It's not enough effort to reward raid-level Gear. Skill isn't everything Raiding is about. It's about the time commitment. Making anything that takes away the Time Commitment required ATM, for Normal/Heroic would kill Raids. Progression Raiding also isn't about Skill as much as time. Ofc you need to be decent/good to make Progression work and I don't think there aren't Casuals around who are as Skilled if not better than current Progression Players. But the amount of Players and amount of Time that goes into Normal/Heroic Raiding is what pretty much justifies the Loot and the Challenge. I would be glad if there was 1-3 Player Content rewarding the same stuff I currently get in SoO Normal/Heroic. But no difficulty or Challenge would make up for the Reward. Since Skill and Movement and all that stuff - you can learn. But Commiting as much time to a Game as Raiders do is the real effort and Challenge. To organize 10-25 People and have them Raid on the same Schedules every week. That is the soul and challenge of Raiding. The remaining parts of Raiding are achieved by doing Stuff with those said people again and again. Raiding and Progression are about Time and Organization. Bosses are about training and learning the Core of the Mechanic. We don't raid for Lewtz (at least not everybody). But they're the Reward and the Character Progression we get for doing what we do.

    If people think Blood Legion or Method Raiders for example are the Gods of Raiding or the best at their Class - that's not true when it comes to every single Player. There are far better Players around in other Guilds with different amounts of Time-Commitment available. There are even far better Players around that are Casual, that can't commit to the Schedule to begin with or not anymore.

    The thing is that you would never Achieve the same amount of Effort we put into Raiding, by just doing challenging, skill demanding Content with 3 People. The whole difficulty Raiding really has wouldn't be the Problem anymore, thus not justifying the Reward. The only way this kind of stuff is going to work, is likely to never truely exist.

    Both Factions need to leave each other alone and need to stop forcing their Oppinion and Demands on the other Faction. There's no way to do anything without "hurting" one Faction, SADLY.

    Greg and Kroeger (or Koegler? Dunno, the fellow German guy @ Blizz) also already stated in a Korean (?) Interview, Blizz is fine with the Current Business Model the the overall state of the Game. This kinda looks like they're fine with the amount of Casual-Content and the amount of Raid-Content. And from what I've learned about Blizz in the last ~7-8 Years, this leaves out any kind of Action from Blizz's side in this particular Matter. The Complain from both Sides haven't reached the point YET, where it is the biggest threat to them.

  9. #9
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    I'd like to see different character progression paths as it will keep people out of each others hair. Wildstar is creating content for a wide player base, solo, casual, 20m, 40m and vanilla/tbc like crafting. I'd like to see WoW return to the MMO roots instead of this dumbed down formula. I like Flex but I despise LFR and all the terrible people in there that get gear and see the story by afking or just being so bad they couldn't complete the tutorial of any other game.

    However, solo gear can not equal raiding gear end of story. Even though they may require the same kind of skill, the fact soloing is so much more convenient and you don't rely on others means people will just do that content as it yields the highest possible rewards. It wouldn't work. What needs to happen to make it work is offering gear that is relevant to the solo content. Different gear with different bonuses tailored to beating and scoring higher each time. The Ilvl should not match heroic raiding gear end of story but I like the idea of a different progression path.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    People miss the obvious Facts: It's not enough effort to reward raid-level Gear. Skill isn't everything Raiding is about. It's about the time commitment. Making anything that takes away the Time Commitment required ATM, for Normal/Heroic would kill Raids. Progression Raiding also isn't about Skill as much as time. Ofc you need to be decent/good to make Progression work and I don't think there aren't Casuals around who are as Skilled if not better than current Progression Players. But the amount of Players and amount of Time that goes into Normal/Heroic Raiding is what pretty much justifies the Loot and the Challenge.
    Many players that do normal or heroic raids say that they do them mostly not because of the gear, but rather because they enjoy the experience. I was a raider and I completely understand them, downing a boss together as a team is a reward in and of itself, even if / when you don't get any gear out of it. This does have its limits, sure, but the feeling of progressing together as a raid team or as a guild is definitely worth something.

    Yes, a non-raid progression system would either significantly reduce (small groups) or remove (solo) the need to organize other people. Sure enough, this would attract many people who now raid. But, if the rewards are equal and the amount of skill required to get these rewards is equal, what does that say about these people? That they either prefer small-group or solo content to raids, or that they couldn't care less about what type of content to do as long as it makes them progress, and that they don't care about raid experience enough to suffer from the waits and the scheduling and the loot dramas and everything else associated with them.

    If the majority of people prefer small-group or solo content to raids, given equal rewards and equal skill requirements, wouldn't that simply mean that raids are just, well, not that good kind of content to have in the game, after all?

  11. #11
    Whoe this game turned into casual game and you want even more casual content? Joke?

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire KBWarriors's Avatar
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    Angry

    This thread makes me sick:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...citing-endgame

    I don't understand what casuals want anymore. Not only do they have access to watered down raids that are easier than Mists of Pandaria Heroics, but they still want more.

    Honestly, when LFR first started, here's how it went:

    - The majority of people knew what they were doing but didn't care since they didn't know anyone in the group.
    - They would tag the boss then AFK
    - They would continue to AFK and refuse to roll on items.
    - If they could, then they would hit need on the item.
    Rinse and repeat.

    Sure, LFR isn't in the best spot now, but I am so tired of people saying "tanks get abused in LFR"... no they don't. The worst part is, every single thread I've seen of a tank complaining has been a tank with no reforges, no enchants, no gems and they usually don't know the fight.

    Well no shit you're getting abused, I would kick you too. As a tank, you can't come to a fight and expect everyone to be patient while someone explains the fight to you. You have 24 other people in there who are ready to go and want to get out of the cesspool (raiding lol) that LFR is.

    If you honestly think a tank is getting abused in LFR, please join a competent normal or heroic guild. You'll find that your "tank abuse" is far better in LFR than it is in a guild. You see, in LFR, they just boot you and be done with you. In Normal, you've got 9 to 24 other people pissed off because they brought an incompetent tank who didn't know what they were doing. So if you really think you being removed from a LFR is abuse, I urge you to join a normal guild and try your crap there.

    Honestly, LFR in my opinion is far more than they should be offering for casuals, but apparently that's still not enough.

    Casuals Have:
    - Unrated Battlegrounds (and now access to high end pvp gear that anyone can get)
    - Pet Battles
    - Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete
    - Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish
    - BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week

    WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT? Good god man.. I honestly hope Rob Pardo and the new team working on the expansion says "sucks to be you all" and does the following:

    - Cans LFR: Just removes it completely...
    - Brings back some form of attunements
    - Brings back CC and challenge to Heroic Dungeons.

    If you don't have a couple of hours a day to devote to a MMORPG... then don't pay $15 a month to play a MMORPG.. it honestly makes no sense to me why people who have no time to play the game would continue to pay for it..

    /rant

    Now proceed to flame me, tell me how your $15 matters, how wrong I am, how LFR is a wonderful tool, how casuals run this game, how I'm an elitist prick, etc.
    Last edited by KBWarriors; 2013-11-08 at 02:40 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Many players that do normal or heroic raids say that they do them mostly not because of the gear, but rather because they enjoy the experience. I was a raider and I completely understand them, downing a boss together as a team is a reward in and of itself, even if / when you don't get any gear out of it. This does have its limits, sure, but the feeling of progressing together as a raid team or as a guild is definitely worth something.

    Yes, a non-raid progression system would either significantly reduce (small groups) or remove (solo) the need to organize other people. Sure enough, this would attract many people who now raid. But, if the rewards are equal and the amount of skill required to get these rewards is equal, what does that say about these people? That they either prefer small-group or solo content to raids, or that they couldn't care less about what type of content to do as long as it makes them progress, and that they don't care about raid experience enough to suffer from the waits and the scheduling and the loot dramas and everything else associated with them.

    If the majority of people prefer small-group or solo content to raids, given equal rewards and equal skill requirements, wouldn't that simply mean that raids are just, well, not that good kind of content to have in the game, after all?
    Though they aren't other wise 25 Players Progression wouldn't be the one that counts. The more People the more difficult to organize. The more people to progress with together as a guild, the more fun. Small groups and Solo content take that type of fun with a big amount of other Players away from the game. That's the Problem. The simple amount of People you're dealing with is doing it. Loot Dramas are nothing new at some point. Your Character's Gear and Achievements, so the overall Accomplishments are part of the Player's Progression. Nothing could be more fun to a dedicated raider than raiding with a big amount of players, Progressing through a Raid until you bring down that big, evil Guy at the end of it. Gear and Achievements, Mounts, Pets. All these are things that remember you of your Accomplishments and finally bring your Character to the Maximum of his Power - for a short amount of time, because Evil will always be. When I take a look into my Bank I don't see Phat Lewtz. I see the Big accomplishment my Warrior has made back in Classic, by seeing a Full Set of Tier 3 Armor with the Corrupted Ashbringer just next to it. God how we bitched and bickered about who would get those things first. But in the end everyone was fine with the decisions our Leader made. And if there really was a HUGE clash between two people... well... then it sometimes results in the whole Raid doing Naxx to a endless loop of Rick Astley... -.- The Point I'm trying to make is - even though the feeling isn't the same. Loot is a part of this progression. It's all hard to describe. But what some people demand would take the fun from raiding. Trust me. I bet you won't get the same feel for progression with a smaller group or solo. It'll feel dumbed down and underwhelming. And what would it all exactly do? Nothing. In the end it's the same and in the end some faction will get bored of it again and the Cycle of Demand will start all over again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    This thread makes me sick:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...citing-endgame

    I don't understand what casuals want anymore. Not only do they have access to watered down raids that are easier than Mists of Pandaria Heroics, but they still want more.

    Honestly, when LFR first started, here's how it went:

    - The majority of people knew what they were doing but didn't care since they didn't know anyone in the group.
    - They would tag the boss then AFK
    - They would continue to AFK and refuse to roll on items.
    - If they could, then they would hit need on the item.
    Rinse and repeat.

    Sure, LFR isn't in the best spot now, but I am so tired of people saying "tanks get abused in LFR"... no they don't. The worst part is, every single thread I've seen of a tank complaining has been a tank with no reforges, no enchants, no gems and they usually don't know the fight.

    Well no shit you're getting abused, I would kick you too. As a tank, you can't come to a fight and expect everyone to be patient while someone explains the fight to you. You have 24 other people in there who are ready to go and want to get out of the cesspool (raiding lol) that LFR is.

    If you honestly think a tank is getting abused in LFR, please join a competent normal or heroic guild. You'll find that your "tank abuse" is far better in LFR than it is in a guild. You see, in LFR, they just boot you and be done with you. In Normal, you've got 9 to 24 other people pissed off because they brought an incompetent tank who didn't know what they were doing. So if you really think you being removed from a LFR is abuse, I urge you to join a normal guild and try your crap there.

    Honestly, LFR in my opinion is far more than they should be offering for casuals, but apparently that's still not enough.

    Casuals Have:
    - Unrated Battlegrounds (and now access to high end pvp gear that anyone can get)
    - Pet Battles
    - Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete
    - Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish
    - BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week

    WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT? Good god man.. I honestly hope Rob Pardo and the new team working on the expansion says "sucks to be you all" and does the following:

    - Cans LFR: Just removes it completely...
    - Brings back some form of attunements
    - Brings back CC and challenge to Heroic Dungeons.

    If you don't have a couple of hours a day to devote to a MMORPG... then don't pay $15 a month to play a MMORPG.. it honestly makes no sense to me why people who have no time to play the game would continue to pay for it..

    /rant

    Now proceed to flame me, tell me how your $15 matters, how wrong I am, how LFR is a wonderful tool, how casuals run this game, how I'm an elitist prick, etc.
    Prove me wrong rda, but..

    - Brings back some form of attunements
    - Brings back CC and challenge to Heroic Dungeons.
    Didn't this "annoyed" fellow Raider, with the stick in his ass just make a good point?
    From the Main Thread Anarchor made I kinda had the Impression that this also is a big Problem with the demands of Casuals. Raids are the only sense of Progression and need to be Scheduled. Now Heroic Dungeons being tuned like Classic Dungeons would give a sense of Progression back to the Game. And it would be accessible at any time with less than 10 Players needed.
    I'm just asking you because many Players came up with it in Anarchor's Thread and kinda went away from Anachor's oppinion partially, since the way Dungeons have been going the past couple of years took away some kind of way to Progress for Casuals. Many demanded at least more challenging 5 Man's to begin with.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    People miss the obvious Facts
    You start with this sentence, when it was YOU, who completely missed the entire point of this thread, good job! People arent asking for WF HC gear at all, they are asking to STOP being forced into LFR madness as the only way to progress their character and give alternatives to get that level of gear. And honestly, just about anything else is harder than LFR... But few examples are CMs, endless PGs or scaled down Brawlers, all of them MUCH more demanding than LFR afk-fest and much more worthy of giving good gear.

    And If I dont hear about Path of Titans in some form is coming back, which was awesome idea back then (you know, progressing character more NOT through raiding), I dont think I will come back either.

  15. #15
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    Didn't this "annoyed" fellow Raider, with the stick in his ass just make a good point?
    From the Main Thread Anarchor made I kinda had the Impression that this also is a big Problem with the demands of Casuals. Raids are the only sense of Progression and need to be Scheduled. Now Heroic Dungeons being tuned like Classic Dungeons would give a sense of Progression back to the Game. And it would be accessible at any time with less than 10 Players needed.
    I'm just asking you because many Players came up with it in Anarchor's Thread and kinda went away from Anachor's oppinion partially, since the way Dungeons have been going the past couple of years took away some kind of way to Progress for Casuals. Many demanded at least more challenging 5 Man's to begin with.
    Problem is, when they got challenging 5 mans they cried it was too hard, it seems they talk a good game but when handed a challenge they cry it's too hard........look at all the nerfs to LFR in the past month.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    Casuals Have:
    - Unrated Battlegrounds (and now access to high end pvp gear that anyone can get)
    - Pet Battles
    - Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete
    - Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish
    - BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week

    WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT?
    As stated in the first post, we want non-raid progression content that would be as rich, as rewarding, as interesting, and as lasting as raids.

    By "progression" we understand a process that makes your character more powerful. In WoW, that means gear and, to much lesser extent, enchants, gems, and the likes.

    Going through your list:

    Unrated Battlegrounds -- too short for a progression, the gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear, plus this is PVP (own can of worms)
    Pet Battles -- isn't suitable as a non-raid progression, because this isn't progression, your character doesn't get more powerful
    Watered Down Raids That AFKers Can Complete -- isn't suitable as a non-raid progression, because its raids
    Heroics That Take 5 Minutes To Finish -- too short for a progression, gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear
    BoA Gear Out The Bazinga To Level To 90 In A Week -- too short for a progression, gear is vastly inferior to raiding gear

    You can add Brawler's Guild and Proving Grounds here too. Neither is a progression, similarly to pet battles.

  17. #17
    LFR is endgame for casuals. You don't want to deal with the hassels of LFR? Spend an hour researching your character, another hour researching the endgame raid. There, now you can Flex/Normal.

    Are people honestly complaining about this? I understood after Sunwell the casuals having an argument but now you're just whining...

  18. #18
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    I don't understand what casuals want anymore. Not only do they have access to watered down raids that are easier than Mists of Pandaria Heroics, but they still want more.
    The simple answer is no one does because "Casuals" are not one single group but rather a combination of MANY smaller groups. It's easy to look and go "only 10% raid the rest of the player base does not raid and does not want to". That's fine and dandy now find something that 11% of that 90% all do and want to do and you will find something that can replace raids. As it is now the second largest % of player base is into PVP but as you can tell from teh attention it gets that is less than raids. Untill you can find somethign that a large % of non raiders want to do and actually do on a consistent basis staying subed like raiders do then naturally Blizz will try to funel people into what 10% of it's playerbase is already doing and likes doing as they have to and knwo how to keep that 10% happy!

    Harder to come up with and stay ontp of constant progress if you have to do it for Group A that is 6%, B 4%, C 7%, D4% etc etc when you can go "raiders make up 10% and we know how to keep 10% happy so we will make that! However group A is only 6% so we can give it some attention but b,c,d don't like A at all and raiders are just mildly atracted by A.

    It's easy to give opinions on what you believe would retain a casual player from a casual personal players POV (like the OP) however it's just a fraction of the casual population that would be into what was posted above so again a good % would feel ignored and right back to square one.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    You start with this sentence, when it was YOU, who completely missed the entire point of this thread, good job! People arent asking for WF HC gear at all, they are asking to STOP being forced into LFR madness as the only way to progress their character and give alternatives to get that level of gear. And honestly, just about anything else is harder than LFR... But few examples are CMs, endless PGs or scaled down Brawlers, all of them MUCH more demanding than LFR afk-fest and much more worthy of giving good gear.

    And If I dont hear about Path of Titans in some form is coming back, which was awesome idea back then (you know, progressing character more NOT through raiding), I dont think I will come back either.
    I didn't miss it, I should've linked that point to my Statement though, sorry. But for Blizz to do anything like that it needs to make it through. And I'm not convinced there are enough Players around to make it worth the Effort. There might be though. I just couldn't see Blizzard doing anything like that without a majority of the Playerbase demanding it. And if that would be TRULY the case, Blizz could have already get it done. Thus I went the way of basing my oppinion on a higher reward for said Casual-Content because right now it seems to be the only way Blizz would do it, since there are 2 kinds of Players that would benefit from it and that are both dedicated to the Game somehow. Or maybe I just fucked that one up completely, yeah Sorry.

    On the Path of the Titan's though...:
    YES PLEASE! I loved that thing and I got so annoyed when it was clear they would go through with it... -.-

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire KBWarriors's Avatar
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    So.. basically casual players want a progression path inside of a MMORPG that isn't PvE or PvP?

    Oh please Rob Pardo.. I have faith in you.. please deliver. I might actually make an account to play again.

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