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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Any other questions?

    Drop the ego and accept that we are at the limitations of the current game engine and without a complete re-write we're bumping the limits. THIS IS NEEDED
    Can I get fries with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteadee View Post
    Uhh yes we have problems right now. The reason H Thok (I think) and Garrosh heal themselves is because 32 bit integers only go up to ~2.1 billion.
    Lol don't care, make them heal themselves fast and then only people with half decent PC's and not shit-heaps make of hopes and dreams will play WoW.

    I'd rather they re-do the combat code than an item squish, it's time for a graphical overhaul anyway.
    No need to throw out 4 X-Pac's of growth.

  2. #62
    Stood in the Fire 93sika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    "No U GO."
    Solid retort.

    You're the one asking them to change the system, not me.



    YOU thinks it's better to look at, and because of that reason, YOU think it's necessary.
    From a computing standpoint, it's already been rebutted that we don't NEED item squishes, because the game can run fine with the digits we're dishing out, when we start having problems, fine, that isn't yet.
    It comes down to what you want, and because you don't personally like the look of big numbers, a meaningless aesthetic change that half of the players would disagree with, and even more would flat out not give a fuck about?
    Cry more.
    Would you say that it's easier to justify a re-arrangement of a number/item squish mid-way through an expansion, 'cause that'll be when this problem will be occuring, more so than at the beginning of the expansion - both to prevent people from arguing about how "numbers now look silly and sad, and I feel like I've been ditched by the gamedesigners for "pretty" (but in reality extremely helpful) engine designs" as well as for everyone to get used to this new change from the get go of the expansion- instead of having to adjust midway through?

    Usually when they re-arrange major stuff, like talent trees and what not, they like to do it just before the expansion hits or the same day you enter the new expansion. There's a demand on two parts for an item squish 'cause as it is, I think some people may have slightly outdated computers or what not, and they will not be able to handle bigger numbers if that's what's going forward next expansion- like Oondasta, it was a horrific experience for a lot of my friends, since world boss events + lots of pretty numbers to calculate at the same time in your hidden combat log will actually make raid/slight world lag. It's the same problem that a lot of 25 man raiders experience, because of high calculated numbers as well as far too frequent number outputs from stuff like Healing Rain and Effloressence etc.

    I'm afraid we very much need an item squish here, otherwise there'll be blood to spill outside Blizzards' office come mid-expansion when they turn your 5,600,000 damage Frostbolt Critical hit into a 3200 damage crit. instead!

    No hate- but I think we need it badly!

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  3. #63
    High Overlord Kornstyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    "No U GO."
    Solid retort.

    You're the one asking them to change the system, not me.
    I am not sure, but GC first announced about the item squish or the "Megadamage" options. Some people liked the item squish and some others the megadamage. Blizzard decided the item squish option. So what's your problem?? If you don't like it then you can still play or quit.

  4. #64
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    Do you know why garrosh had to heal himself twice in the raid encounter? Because if they made the 25 man heroic encounter with more than 2.1 billion HP the game would break.
    Do you see why this cannot continue? Do you want raids that have bosses that only do this?

    Theres more to this problem than you think. Its not enough to say "lol- i like big numbers." Its for the longevity of the game. Its stupid to think its not needed. If the next expansion follows the same trend like every other expansion, where HP and damage is multiplied by ~10 by the last tier of content, then it will be impossible to program raid bosses without this artificial mechanic.
    On the other side of the coin, when you get an item upgrade, it will BARELY affect you. Hell, ONE upgrade barely affects you today, so a whole new gear set will do next to nothing with a squish.

    I don't want to be mega-nerfed. I don't care if everything is proportionately the same or not. Vanilla was terrible when each piece of gear gave you like, what, 5DPS?

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    Currently playing a White Mage/Bard in FFXIV and crying that I enjoy healer abuse

  5. #65
    That's not quite right. At level cap, things won't really change compared to now. There will still be dozens of iLvl in a single tier, and relative damage and health growth will remain roughly the same as it is now. All that is being done is lowering the starting point. That is the entire purpose of the squish.

    Many of the proponents of the squish seem to have missed this point, that it will not have any effect on current content whatsoever, and especially won't make gear gaps between tiers of the current endgame smaller.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Any other questions?

    Drop the ego and accept that we are at the limitations of the current game engine and without a complete re-write we're bumping the limits. THIS IS NEEDED
    Actually, they themselves say that there is an alternative solution. They have to do one of them, but it's up to them which one.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-11-08 at 05:50 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    Can I get fries with that?



    Lol don't care, make them heal themselves fast and then only people with half decent PC's and not shit-heaps make of hopes and dreams will play WoW.

    I'd rather they re-do the combat code than an item squish, it's time for a graphical overhaul anyway.
    No need to throw out 4 X-Pac's of growth.
    Lol so you get proven wrong and you get upset with that? You understand that a complete rewrite would take years to do right? The item squish took months. It was working during Cataclysm on their internal game. Again set the ego aside. Egomaniacs aren't flattering...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    On the other side of the coin, when you get an item upgrade, it will BARELY affect you. Hell, ONE upgrade barely affects you today, so a whole new gear set will do next to nothing with a squish.

    I don't want to be mega-nerfed. I don't care if everything is proportionately the same or not. Vanilla was terrible when each piece of gear gave you like, what, 5DPS?
    It's actually better that way imo. That way your overall group DPS isn't quite as dependent on a weapon upgrade or a 2 or 4-piece bonus (though those will still be huge upgrades); There is even a chance that trinkets and other items will stay relevant for longer making the normal and heroic versions of older raids relevant for longer that = game health. In terms of percentage it's still like getting a 5 DPS upgrade, but the number is smaller. Nothing will have changed aside from the size of the numbers and the engine won't break.

  7. #67
    Bloodsail Admiral Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    If those numbers increase even by less than 50%, which is going to happen, every expansion jump basically doubles ilevels, then the game will break.
    That is a problem, a gamebreaking problem.
    It won't. The highest possible signed number is 9,223,372,036,854,775,807. That's 9.2 trillions.

  8. #68
    Stood in the Fire 93sika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post

    I don't want to be mega-nerfed. I don't care if everything is proportionately the same or not. Vanilla was terrible when each piece of gear gave you like, what, 5DPS?
    And it is quite easy to understand that nobody wants to get mega-nerfed - but imagine that your computer (well maybe not yours, cause it may be terrific and a super engine of a beast) will start lagging from being unable to calculate these numbers fast enough - that'll 'cause server lag for everyone else (a very tiny amount of lag) and if 1000 players do that type of thing to everyone else online, you know what it's going to feel like playing- very very laggy! :-)

    I don't want to see smaller numbers, but for some people their computer along with the server instability caused by these messy numbers might just make things far worse than previously experienced in raids etc. =(

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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Lol so you get proven wrong and you get upset with that? You understand that a complete rewrite would take years to do right? The item squish took months. It was working during Cataclysm on their internal game. Again set the ego aside. Egomaniacs aren't flattering...
    All these personal insults, yet I'm the one that's upset.
    Either way, these are the numbers they've given us by giving us these items, they should have thought long-term if they didn't want to either shaft the majority of their player-base or dedicate years of work to something.
    The only thing they can do now it nut up and put those years in, because the fan-base shouldn't be punished for their lack of foresight, before it becomes a problem they'll have the fix up anyway.

  10. #70
    I am Murloc! Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggie01 View Post
    Hey guys,

    Just throwing this in there.

    What's up with the uber-big damage numbers in WoW these days?
    I mean, my Obliterate crits for like 300.000 damage, I hardly have time to read the whole number in the time it shows.
    Not even starting about the healthpools of the players and especially bosses!

    With the upcoming expansion the level cap will probably be increased to 95 or even 100.
    I can only imagine the numbers going up to 800.000 damage to maybe over a million! Thats 1.000.000!

    While I can somehow imagine it being satisfying, I would love to see the 'vanilla-numbers' back! 2.500 crits!
    When the tanks had 10k hp, and it was much!

    I'm not sure this would even be technically achievable with the current state of the game, all npcs/creatures/players and spells/items would have to get their damage and HP lowered by a percentage, and possibly other stats would have to be altered as well.

    But it would sure be cool in my opinion!
    With every new expansion the healthpools and damages increase by that much, the numbers are just insane. And it gets worse every expansion.

    Just my 2 cents
    I would love to hear what you guys think!
    If you'd think for a few seconds about your idea, you'd come to the conclusion it makes no sense.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    It won't. The highest possible signed number is 9,223,372,036,854,775,807. That's 9.2 trillions.
    At least with stock variable types. You can build much bigger ones if need be.
    Quote Originally Posted by 93sika View Post
    And it is quite easy to understand that nobody wants to get mega-nerfed - but imagine that your computer (well maybe not yours, cause it may be terrific and a super engine of a beast) will start lagging from being unable to calculate these numbers fast enough - that'll 'cause server lag for everyone else (a very tiny amount of lag) and if 1000 players do that type of thing to everyone else online, you know what it's going to feel like playing- very very laggy! :-)

    I don't want to see smaller numbers, but for some people their computer along with the server instability caused by these messy numbers might just make things far worse than previously experienced in raids etc. =(

    That would hint at a very stupid client-server structure. The server shouldn't start lagging because your client can't keep up.

    Overall, the number of events(i.e. individual spell, melee and ability hits etc.) makes a far bigger impact than how big these events are.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I don't understand why people care about this. You do 1M dps? So what? The mob is going to have 1M+ hp. Does it matter if it's 10, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M ?
    There is no reasonable argument to this. For a computer it sure doesn't matter.

    However, I find it more fun when numbers are small. It is somehow more comfortable and... comprehensible for me.
    In fact, any game where damage numbers at the beginning are bigger than 10 is annoying to me.

    If you don't feel this way then noone can explain to you. But some people prefer small numbers, and that's it.
    Whether catering to one type of people, or the other, is a good choice from Blizzard's side remains to be seen
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    All these personal insults, yet I'm the one that's upset.
    Either way, these are the numbers they've given us by giving us these items, they should have thought long-term if they didn't want to either shaft the majority of their player-base or dedicate years of work to something.
    The only thing they can do now it nut up and put those years in, because the fan-base shouldn't be punished for their lack of foresight, before it becomes a problem they'll have the fix up anyway.
    e·go (g, g)
    n. pl. e·gos
    1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
    2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.
    3.
    a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
    b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.

    That isn't a personal attack. It's the argument everyone against the squish is using. It's an egotistical argument saying that they are taking something away from you. Blizzard told people 2 years ago that this would be a problem and even the designers let their egos get in the way of making the decision that was best for the game at the time.

    Again I'll post the blue response to this since people are still claiming that the numbers aren't big enough yet:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    TC: "If we don't do the item squish it's going to require a lot of re-engineering of our combat code to actually support bigger numbers. We're getting really close to the point where the code can't..."
    CS: "Yeah, the code can't compile the numbers"
    TC: "Yeah it can't compile the numbers, so we are testing the item squish internally with the expansion, and I think a good time to launch it would be right before the next expansion so people are already used to it by the time the expansion launches. So, that's the current plan, but we'll see how it works out. I hope we can." (Source)
    When Tom Chilton and Cory Stockton say it's reached the limit (Stockton is the content designer e.g. raid designer btw) then it's reached it's limit.

  14. #74
    I remember in TBC actually looking at the stats of my gear and being aware of my heals. It was exciting seeing how high I could get my GH to crit on a warlock.

    Starting in Cata and now completely in MoP I don't even look at the stat numbers. I see Crit/Mastery and know I want it because it's a higher ilvl and those are my secondaries (Disc priest). I have no idea how much my heals heal for, I turned of scrolling combat text at the beginning of the expansion because it looked ridiculous. I honestly haven't felt like my healing has gotten stronger AT ALL this entire expansion because how large the numbers are make it where I don't even bother looking. I just know the raid bosses make our health go low and my heal buttons make them go back up.

    I preferred Vanilla/TBC when I was capable of caring.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    e·go (g, g)
    n. pl. e·gos
    1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
    2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.
    3.
    a. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
    b. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.

    That isn't a personal attack. It's the argument everyone against the squish is using. It's an egotistical argument saying that they are taking something away from you. Blizzard told people 2 years ago that this would be a problem and even the designers let their egos get in the way of making the decision that was best for the game at the time.

    Again I'll post the blue response to this since people are still claiming that the numbers aren't big enough yet:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    TC: "If we don't do the item squish it's going to require a lot of re-engineering of our combat code to actually support bigger numbers. We're getting really close to the point where the code can't..."
    CS: "Yeah, the code can't compile the numbers"
    TC: "Yeah it can't compile the numbers, so we are testing the item squish internally with the expansion, and I think a good time to launch it would be right before the next expansion so people are already used to it by the time the expansion launches. So, that's the current plan, but we'll see how it works out. I hope we can." (Source)
    When Tom Chilton and Cory Stockton say it's reached the limit (Stockton is the content designer e.g. raid designer btw) then it's reached it's limit.
    But you WERE using it in an insulting manner, you're basically Passive Aggressive Rage : The movie.

    Again, they should have had foresight, the player-base shouldn't pay because of their failings.

    That's all it boils down to.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    All these personal insults, yet I'm the one that's upset.
    Either way, these are the numbers they've given us by giving us these items, they should have thought long-term if they didn't want to either shaft the majority of their player-base or dedicate years of work to something.
    The only thing they can do now it nut up and put those years in, because the fan-base shouldn't be punished for their lack of foresight, before it becomes a problem they'll have the fix up anyway.
    You seem the most upset in this thread. The item squish will happen, since you represent 50% of the player base, you guys can go ahead and leave when you feel powerless.
    All I can think of is two kids fighting in the back seat for each other's toy when it is the same damn batman toy. The result will be the same, no matter how much you bitch for what you want.

  17. #77
    And consider something what for A LOT of people actually does matter: The higher level you get, the more dps you're supposed to do. So it would be kinda silly from Blizzard to introduce a so called 'item squish'. Put your develop time in something more worthwhile please

  18. #78
    It have been posted here before and in a lot of threads similar to this one, but blizzard have been out saying that the engineeringly cant keep up with the high numbers comming in. It would simply have an impact on the game if they dont squish it.
    Personally I am all for the item squish. I would prefer it to be somewhere around WoTLK Ulduar level.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    But you WERE using it in an insulting manner, you're basically Passive Aggressive Rage : The movie.

    Again, they should have had foresight, the player-base shouldn't pay because of their failings.

    That's all it boils down to.
    I really wasn't using it to be mean. I was using it to describe the backlash and the psychological reason people don't want this to happen. You're too blinded by "losing power" to even see that your rebuttal to me re-posting the blue was your ego yet again saying "no you're emasculating me." The fact will remain that percentage wise nothing has changed. The numbers will be smaller, the engine will continue on, and we can only hope that the designers will have learned from this experience.

  20. #80
    Field Marshal irralis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    It won't. The highest possible signed number is 9,223,372,036,854,775,807. That's 9.2 trillions.
    That's actually 9 quintillion. Switching from 32-bit integers to 64-bit ones has a lot of not nice complications though. You basically have to drop support for 32-bit architectures, which wouldn't be a big deal if people weren't still running 32-bit copies of XP. The network protocol has to change to accommodate it, which means more bandwidth (it's a huge increase in the case of the server). The database implications of such a change make me cringe. And that's on top of rewriting and bug-testing large portions of the engine, huge amounts of development time for a change you literally will not see. But the far biggest problem is that they'd switch anything damage or health related to a bigger integer to prevent this happening again in the future. Imagine everywhere you see a damage, healing, or health number, and think about it taking up twice as much memory as it is now. I hate the item squish, I don't want to see it, but it beyond necessary.

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