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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    I really wasn't using it to be mean. I was using it to describe the backlash and the psychological reason people don't want this to happen. You're too blinded by "losing power" to even see that your rebuttal to me re-posting the blue was your ego yet again saying "no you're emasculating me." The fact will remain that percentage wise nothing has changed. The numbers will be smaller, the engine will continue on, and we can only hope that the designers will have learned from this experience.
    More personal insults,
    you're a little ball of passive aggressive fury aren't you?
    All I'm saying is that developers shouldn't take the easy way out and punish the fan-base, and this annoys you all so much?

  2. #82
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irralis View Post
    That's actually 9 quintillion. Switching from 32-bit integers to 64-bit ones has a lot of not nice complications though. You basically have to drop support for 32-bit architectures, which wouldn't be a big deal if people weren't still running 32-bit copies of XP. The network protocol has to change to accommodate it, which means more bandwidth (it's a huge increase in the case of the server). The database implications of such a change make me cringe. And that's on top of rewriting and bug-testing large portions of the engine, huge amounts of development time for a change you literally will not see. But the far biggest problem is that they'd switch anything damage or health related to a bigger integer to prevent this happening again in the future. Imagine everywhere you see a damage, healing, or health number, and think about it taking up twice as much memory as it is now. I hate the item squish, I don't want to see it, but it beyond necessary.
    I think I'm just going to bold the last line of this and just watch the thread for now. This is almost exactly how I feel about the squish and it gives a real answer that I cannot provide. It's not about an "easy answer" or a "hard answer" it's about the "right answer" for the game and that answer is that the squish is necessary and it is the most efficient way to fix the problem at hand.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
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  3. #83
    I mean, my Obliterate crits for like 300.000 damage, I hardly have time to read the whole number in the time it shows.
    ... if you can't read a 6 digit number in an instant; it isn't the number that is the problem. There are addons that can shorten that for you to '300k' and later '3m' so your brain can process a smaller base number. It isn't uncommon; since scientific notation exists for that very reason. 3*10^5 (300,000) is fine with me as well, but I bet some wouldn't like that because maths.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93sika View Post
    And it is quite easy to understand that nobody wants to get mega-nerfed - but imagine that your computer (well maybe not yours, cause it may be terrific and a super engine of a beast) will start lagging from being unable to calculate these numbers fast enough - that'll 'cause server lag for everyone else (a very tiny amount of lag) and if 1000 players do that type of thing to everyone else online, you know what it's going to feel like playing- very very laggy! :-)

    I don't want to see smaller numbers, but for some people their computer along with the server instability caused by these messy numbers might just make things far worse than previously experienced in raids etc. =(
    NO ONE's PC is that crappy. No one's PC has problems with basic numerical calculations. Even the shittiest of PCs from 15 years ago were still more powerful than what they used to plan and go to the moon with. Hell, watch calculators 30 years ago were powerful enough to handle these calculations in milliseconds.

    There is no lag from the numbers; there is lag however, from your addons.

    Not to mention, lag experienced by player X does not affect all the players around them.

    What has happened in the past though, was an addon a group of raiders had, lagged out players/the raid from communication issues; but that wasn't server lag either, that was client lag related to the addon.

    The only time you come into server lag is through overloading; and that isn't from the numbers themselves, but the quantity of more memory intensive groupings; massive amounts of players. Ex: when some slick people would crash a server by intentionally leading extremely large raids on a capital (100+); a later example of this is world boss server crashes from people hopping server instances to zerg them. Now; I feel this is an issue that needs to be addressed. In a game bragging about (and virtually merging for) large communities and player interaction goals; you cannot have an infrastructure that is so weak that a couple hundred can lag/crash the server (Dalaran ... hence why Crystalsong Forest went unused and Argent Tournament was moved to northern Icecrown instead). That is a serious issue and I have no idea how it should be fixed because I'm not a computer hardware/software engineer.

    But trust in this; if you have a 1000 players in a condensed area; it isn't omg 1m crit! that lagged it and crashed it, it was the quantity of people (because people were crashing servers with less even back in wrath with 5-10k numbers). Coincidence does not mean correlation.


    I've played a lot of MMOs. The numbers mean little outside of evaluating yourself, or building yourself up. Whether I did 200k in WoW or I do 50 elsewhere; it is speed of kill, mechanics of fight, and execution that matter in the game. In general though; once I reach certain plateaus in a particular game, I prefer not to degrade.

    You will see this sentiment every xpac. It was actually quite prevalent in Cata. End of Wrath you might have been doing 20-30k. As you leveled up, your gear worsened because of stat value changes. You'd end up slowly doing less and less damage as you approached 85. Your 60k burst at end of wrath ended up being 20k, and your sustained 30k ended up being 15k ... until you could start gearing up. In fact, the numbers didn't go up that much by Dragon Soul; now, by the time everyone was fully geared, especially heroic raiders and legendary holders, they could do some sick shit; but average players were only slightly to moderately more powerful than they were in full ICC gear progressing through DS (normal).

    I'm not currently playing, but what were people doing at the end of DS? Between 1-200k dps? What are people doing now? 2-3x that? About right comparatively in scaling. That would mean between 1-2 million at the end of next xpac; but so what? Just turn the damn numbers off.


    Here is why. An item squish is pointless unless it comes with a level squish. The same inflation you worry about with raw damage/healing numbers is the same issue new players are going to have with leveling to 100+. These two things would be best to be done together. The level squish needs to not be conservative; vanilla 1-30 at the HIGHEST. 5 levels per xpac. Squish the ilvl at this time, and squish it to the ground.

    Have ilvl progress at chlvl pace until the most current xpac, where you give room for progression, but make it as linear as you still can (impossible, but don't have the gaps as huge as they are today). So; MoP gear would be scaled down to ilvl 50. First tier new xpac would be ilvl 55. Then, have a 1 ilvl difference between the various difficulties, so LFR 52, Flex 53, N 54, H 55; next tier LFR 54, Flex 55, N 56, H 57, 3rd (last?) tier LFR 56, Flex 57, N 58, H 59. This sets up for the next xpac allowing heroic raiders to still get better gear at the end of 1st tier without pushing ilvl out of sync with character level.

    This does break one of their agendas though. They have always made greens in new xpac starting areas extreme upgrades, rendering your raid gear useless (which I don't like). I understand though. They have to tune the content. They need to be able to assume an appropriate gear level to tune for. They can't tune the starting zone for N/H ilvl, because some will be coming through in questing gear which is immensely underpowered. So they set up rewards that eliminate everyone's gear, and the next zone can be tuned assuming everyone is on a 'level' playing field. BUT, that only adds to the inflation.

    If they squished how I proposed, they'd have a reasonable idea of how to tune the content because the gear progression is linear. The upgrade path is clear. There is less emphasis on 'farming' dungeons and scenarios outside of choice to do so, or to catch up a slot or two, for a stat priority change, interesting proc on a trinket, or for transmog/gold/currency.

    You would feel like the awesome last tier gear you earned had some value. You wouldn't be replacing it until you progressed on the new tier. You'd still be able to use quest rewards, etc for transmog or maybe a trinket was interesting enough to try out. But gear progression is mostly linear, so questing is purely for story and advancing your character's level. The overall gear progression remains the same. You farm your raids for the length of the patch to try and replace all of your gear. Just like in vanilla, you are wanting that extra 5 dps from this piece or combination of pieces. It is about getting BiS, to be the best your can in not only execution but potential output as well.


    ... at least if you are going to ask for an ilvl squish, put some thought and effort into your argument past 'I dun liek big numbers'

  4. #84
    Field Marshal Portdealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    Boom, there goes Item Squishing.
    It's needless and makes you feel weak, the last expansion you were doing 50k now you're getting lucky with 3k?
    Wow that's progress right there let me tell you.
    All the shit we've done, how many times we've saved the world, and you want to make us weaker? That's just stupid.
    ...no one is getting "weaker" with an item squish. All the NPCs, mobs, players. bosses...EVERYTHING is getting reduced. It isn't getting weaker, because players will still have the exact same advantage over everything, it is just in smaller numbers for easier management. Being powerful has nothing to do with large numbers, because in the end, they're just numbers. It isn't like after a squish a level 8 will have as much hp/do as much damage as a level 80. Everyone will still scale up, just at a much smaller scale.

  5. #85
    Confirmed item squish.

    Item squish is in effect too! Our tank had around 45k health. I had around 32k health. My Prayer of Healing was landing between 3k to 5k. My Flash Heal was around 2.5k and Greater Heal was about 4k and up. Our item levels still showed up in the 520+ range so my guess is that a hidden debuff of some sort was applied to drastically drop and reconfigure all of our stats down. My red gems showed 8 intellect. I guess this is the solution to the great ilevel bloat!
    Cant place links and images, lol See Wow joystiq

  6. #86
    Biggest problem with item squish is that even though they will lower older content levels, its still going to mess with old content soloing. It cant be avoided.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggie01 View Post
    Confirmed item squish.


    Well ,that's it then . I won't buy the expansion. Don't mess with my soloing.
    Anyway was the worst concept ever.

  8. #88
    Stood in the Fire Fur Play's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vandam View Post
    Well ,that's it then . I won't buy the expansion. Don't mess with my soloing.
    Anyway was the worst concept ever.
    How many times does someone have to post that it won't mess with soloing before these replies stop appearing?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhalerius View Post
    Boom, there goes Item Squishing.
    It's needless and makes you feel weak, the last expansion you were doing 50k now you're getting lucky with 3k?
    Wow that's progress right there let me tell you.
    All the shit we've done, how many times we've saved the world, and you want to make us weaker? That's just stupid.
    The problem is people like you who think numbers = power.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebonj View Post
    How many times does someone have to post that it won't mess with soloing before these replies stop appearing?
    The Megadamage solution don't mess with the soloing. (you are squished 30x times, mobs are squished 30x times).
    The Itemsquish does. (you are squished 30x times , mobs are squished let's say between 10x and 20x times)

  11. #91
    The mega-damage solution doesn't mess with anything because it's not a squish. It's a display change.
    Mega-damage means things like displaying
    3k instead of 3000
    5M instead of 5000000
    2T instead of 2000000000

    Not dividing everything by a fixed value. Mega damage is already in the game and can be done through add-ons as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by irralis View Post
    You basically have to drop support for 32-bit architectures, which wouldn't be a big deal if people weren't still running 32-bit copies of XP.
    That's not true. 32bit systems can deal with 64bit variables, they just take longer to do it. Also, the memory usage is largely a non-issue. WoW doesn't use up half of most modern systems memory now, and this won't increase it significantly. Most of the memory usage is for music, graphics and similar stuff.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-11-09 at 09:57 AM.

  12. #92
    Dont want to look stupid, maybe someone mentioned it here already but arent We going back in numbers because of integer limit ? What if the client may not handle it anymore, I know they broke it up with the gold limit but ...

    And also, it would be really awful to have 154168516516 hp and get damaged for 15416851600 or something similar and now the healer will have to (?calculate?) or choose the right spell to heal you, etc. I am glad we are going back in numbers. Saw screen of 90 or 91 lvl DK from Blizzcon who had ~50K hp.

    EDIT: Remember, they are doing it for us. We demand them to make it easier ... well, not maybe everyone but in the current 7.6mil sub, there are maybe like 5 mil. casual players, maybe more. I would like to see smaller numbers and more difficult content as it was in the beginning of Cata or Mop or Wotlk or BC or Vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The mega-damage solution doesn't mess with anything because it's not a squish. It's a display change.
    Mega-damage means things like displaying
    3k instead of 3000
    5M instead of 5000000
    2T instead of 2000000000
    That would be ... weird? You have 5M HP, boss damage you for 4.9M HP, mob hit you for another 0.05M HP and you got left with 0.05M HP. I know its about preference of people but it would be much easier with siple numbers maybe up to 100K or something like that, or even lower.
    Last edited by Nifelvind; 2013-11-09 at 10:16 AM.

  13. #93
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifelvind View Post
    Dont want to look stupid, maybe someone mentioned it here already but arent We going back in numbers because of integer limit ? What if the client may not handle it anymore, I know they broke it up with the gold limit but ...

    And also, it would be really awful to have 154168516516 hp and get damaged for 15416851600 or something similar and now the healer will have to (?calculate?) or choose the right spell to heal you, etc. I am glad we are going back in numbers. Saw screen of 90 or 91 lvl DK from Blizzcon who had ~50K hp.

    EDIT: Remember, they are doing it for us. We demand them to make it easier ... well, not maybe everyone but in the current 7.6mil sub, there are maybe like 5 mil. casual players, maybe more. I would like to see smaller numbers and more difficult content as it was in the beginning of Cata or Mop or Wotlk or BC or Vanilla.
    Smaller numbers won't make content easier or harder.

    If the healer has to think about which spell to use after you get hit 10% of your HP, he's doing something wrong.

  14. #94
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    Without an itemsquish, people's PCs will start slowing if they have to calculate bigger and bigger numbers continually. Its needed for the longevity of the same. If we keep increasing at the rate we are, next expac we can expect 4 million DPS by the last tier of content. Imagine fighting a world boss with 39+ other people, and they are doing an action per second that needs continual buff, weapon damage, etc calculations. When you start doing that will huge numbers, some computers cant really handle that.
    Sure they can, especially if they do everything in scientific notation, which takes a big number like 4000000 and makes it 4E6, where the E represents "10 to the power of". It's dealing damage to a boss, not plotting variables to see how different laws of physics would result in different universes forming.
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  15. #95
    I agree the numbers now do look abit silly.

    And on the point of numbers, I am surprised this level cap has shot to 100 already and they have said there will be more expansions. I always predicted that level 100 would be the end, because just in opinion anything above level 100 would also look silly. I mean level 100 sounds high end, then you hear level 105... It just doesnt sound right IMO

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by DStrukt View Post
    I agree the numbers now do look abit silly.

    And on the point of numbers, I am surprised this level cap has shot to 100 already and they have said there will be more expansions. I always predicted that level 100 would be the end, because just in opinion anything above level 100 would also look silly. I mean level 100 sounds high end, then you hear level 105... It just doesnt sound right IMO
    I wouldn't worry about level looking silly. Level is something that matters when you are leveling. After you reach the cap you are just... max level. In BGs and arena you fight with max level people as well. In raids all bosses are "skull level". You just don't pay attention to it.
    And damage / health / stat numbers are important all the time
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  17. #97
    The Lightbringer Blitzo's Avatar
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    I'd rather they take the time to rework the engine, like they said as it was an option - Then, adjust scaling so this doesn't happen in the future. The jump from Vanilla -> BC -> Wrath was near perfection then BOOM they fuck it up and increase everything 5 fold. Should have been a gradual increase. We shouldn't have been hitting 1m hp for at least another 3-4 expansions down the line. By that time in which a new, renovated engine would have been built.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifelvind View Post
    That would be ... weird? You have 5M HP, boss damage you for 4.9M HP, mob hit you for another 0.05M HP and you got left with 0.05M HP. I know its about preference of people but it would be much easier with siple numbers maybe up to 100K or something like that, or even lower.
    What's weird about that? It's no different from what happens now. Besides, if you drop below 1M, it switches to k anyway. It's in the game right now. Look at health figures in the unit frames. Hell, the players are regularly doing it without thinking about it. Or have you never seen somebody talk about how he does 300k DPS or has 1 million health?

    0.05 is no more simple or complex than 100, so your argument makes no sense.

  19. #99
    It'll be funny to see what the Vanilla gems will have when they do do the squish. 0.5 int waaa so gud.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What's weird about that? It's no different from what happens now. Besides, if you drop below 1M, it switches to k anyway. It's in the game right now. Look at health figures in the unit frames. Hell, the players are regularly doing it without thinking about it. Or have you never seen somebody talk about how he does 300k DPS or has 1 million health?

    0.05 is no more simple or complex than 100, so your argument makes no sense.
    You are right, my argument makes no sense at all because I dont mind it. Its people who Blizzard listen to and have to nerf X things to please Y people to piss Z people.

    When you look at this, its like those WoW private servers / funservers in numbers and levels. Also, there is a crash within the client if you have Druid above 100.

    And TBH, yes. I have seen healers in LFD while leveling who were canceling the cast because their calculating was bad and they would "overheal". Sure, its like 1 of 100.
    Last edited by Nifelvind; 2013-11-09 at 12:47 PM.

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