Back to the old numbers!

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

Just throwing this in there.

What's up with the uber-big damage numbers in WoW these days?
I mean, my Obliterate crits for like 300.000 damage, I hardly have time to read the whole number in the time it shows.
Not even starting about the healthpools of the players and especially bosses!

With the upcoming expansion the level cap will probably be increased to 95 or even 100.
I can only imagine the numbers going up to 800.000 damage to maybe over a million! Thats 1.000.000!

While I can somehow imagine it being satisfying, I would love to see the 'vanilla-numbers' back! 2.500 crits!
When the tanks had 10k hp, and it was much!

I'm not sure this would even be technically achievable with the current state of the game, all npcs/creatures/players and spells/items would have to get their damage and HP lowered by a percentage, and possibly other stats would have to be altered as well.

But it would sure be cool in my opinion!
With every new expansion the healthpools and damages increase by that much, the numbers are just insane. And it gets worse every expansion.

Just my 2 cents
I would love to hear what you guys think!

[MerinPally]

What you're describing is the "item squish" as it's known and it's been discussed for a long time now. If it's going to happen the popular opinion is it'll be announced tonight at blizzcon for the next expansion. If not tonight then probably won't happen at all.

[LeperHerring]

I would love to hear what you guys think!

I don't understand why people care about this. You do 1M dps? So what? The mob is going to have 1M+ hp. Does it matter if it's 10, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M ?

[Bigbazz]

The next expansion would see much higher than 1million, at the start of MOP my executes could crit for 1million before it was nerfed. 1million is probably a number that a bunch of classes see regular, Fury Warriors using Stormbolt for example. For sure 1million will be a relatively small number in the next expansion without a number squish.


I prefered the way it was in TBC personally, biggest crits perhaps hitting 4-5k fully raid buffed. So long as they scale everything back properly then the only impact it will have in game is a visual one.

[cityguy193]

Without an itemsquish, people's PCs will start slowing if they have to calculate bigger and bigger numbers continually. Its needed for the longevity of the same. If we keep increasing at the rate we are, next expac we can expect 4 million DPS by the last tier of content. Imagine fighting a world boss with 39+ other people, and they are doing an action per second that needs continual buff, weapon damage, etc calculations. When you start doing that will huge numbers, some computers cant really handle that.

[TyrantWave]

Give me one example EVER where you needed to know exactly how much your Obliterate hit for, or it would cause a wipe. And you needed to know the exact second you did it.

Why are the numbers insane? Do you not understand larger numbers, or what?

"It used to be 10k!" Yes, and we've levelled considerably since then.

At the start of Wrath you were hitting for 2k dps. At the end, 8k. A 4x increase.
Cata ranged from ~10k to ~40k. Again, a roughly similar increase.
At the start of MoP it's 50k. Ends at 200k for most people. A 4x increase.

If your entire argument for the squish is "I don't like big numbers", then it's a null argument because other people don't like randomly being given smaller numbers.

(Note: I know why Blizzard are proposing the squish. That's a different reason entirely - I still don't agree with it, but I know it)

Without an itemsquish, people's PCs will start slowing if they have to calculate bigger and bigger numbers continually. Its needed for the longevity of the same. If we keep increasing at the rate we are, next expac we can expect 4 million DPS by the last tier of content. Imagine fighting a world boss with 39+ other people, and they are doing an action per second that needs continual buff, weapon damage, etc calculations. When you start doing that will huge numbers, some computers cant really handle that.

That's not how computers work. Calculating 1,921,762,345 - 21,023,784 takes exactly the same amount of time as 3 - 2.
Not to mention, all the calculations are done server side.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why people care about this. You do 1M dps? So what? The mob is going to have 1M+ hp. Does it matter if it's 10, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M ?

Things get out of control for my tiny brain with these huge numbers!

On a more serious note: I get your point, you don't seem to care about it. So my opinion is that mainly for the overview of things it would be nicer to have smaller numbers

[Deleted]

no to item squish, if you can´t handle big numbers then you should maybe revisit some math class for 10year olds.

[Deleted]

Honestly I feel they should just add "K" or "M" to every number. "Your obliterate hits for 1294K" instead of "Your obliterate hits for 1294362".

[Vhalerius]

That's not how computers work. Calculating 1,921,762,345 - 21,023,784 takes exactly the same amount of time as 3 - 2.
Not to mention, all the calculations are done server side.

Boom, there goes Item Squishing.
It's needless and makes you feel weak, the last expansion you were doing 50k now you're getting lucky with 3k?
Wow that's progress right there let me tell you.
All the shit we've done, how many times we've saved the world, and you want to make us weaker? That's just stupid.

[Bigbazz]

Give me one example EVER where you needed to know exactly how much your Obliterate hit for, or it would cause a wipe. And you needed to know the exact second you did it.

Why are the numbers insane? Do you not understand larger numbers, or what?

"It used to be 10k!" Yes, and we've levelled considerably since then.

At the start of Wrath you were hitting for 2k dps. At the end, 8k. A 4x increase.
Cata ranged from ~10k to ~40k. Again, a roughly similar increase.
At the start of MoP it's 50k. Ends at 200k for most people. A 4x increase.

If your entire argument for the squish is "I don't like big numbers", then it's a null argument because other people don't like randomly being given smaller numbers.

(Note: I know why Blizzard are proposing the squish. That's a different reason entirely - I still don't agree with it, but I know it)

I was doing 2k + dps at level 70 in TBC, infact that was there or abouts the requirement to kill Brutallus, SK gaming hunters with legendary bows hit 3k dps during that time. At start of WOTLK I was doing 3.5k in mostly lvl70 gear, after a few bits that was up at 5-6k dps in T7, by time I was Shadowmourne equiped it wasn't unusual to see 20k dps single target at lvl80. 50k+ in Cataclysm in heroic DS gear.

In MOP 200k at the moment isn't that high, I regularely see people do double that. My own character is only LFR/Flex geared and is capable of more than 200k dps, playing Arms (arguably lowest single target spec in game).


Not that it is that relevant, but your numbers are way off.

[cityguy193]

Boom, there goes Item Squishing.
It's needless and makes you feel weak, the last expansion you were doing 50k now you're getting lucky with 3k?
Wow that's progress right there let me tell you.
All the shit we've done, how many times we've saved the world, and you want to make us weaker? That's just stupid.

Do you know why garrosh had to heal himself twice in the raid encounter? Because if they made the 25 man heroic encounter with more than 2.1 billion HP the game would break.
Do you see why this cannot continue? Do you want raids that have bosses that only do this?

Theres more to this problem than you think. Its not enough to say "lol- i like big numbers." Its for the longevity of the game. Its stupid to think its not needed. If the next expansion follows the same trend like every other expansion, where HP and damage is multiplied by ~10 by the last tier of content, then it will be impossible to program raid bosses without this artificial mechanic.

[AeneasBK]

I was doing 2k + dps at level 70 in TBC, infact that was there or abouts the requirement to kill Brutallus, SK gaming hunters with legendary bows hit 3k dps during that time. At start of WOTLK I was doing 3.5k in mostly lvl70 gear, after a few bits that was up at 5-6k dps in T7, by time I was Shadowmourne equiped it wasn't unusual to see 20k dps single target at lvl80. 50k+ in Cataclysm in heroic DS gear.

In MOP 200k at the moment isn't that high, I regularely see people do double that. My own character is only LFR/Flex geared and is capable of more than 200k dps, playing Arms (arguably lowest single target spec in game).


Not that it is that relevant, but your numbers are way off.

No the numbes are pretty average. You killed Brutallus, well done for being representative of a tiny percentage of the playerbase. DPS requirements for Sunwell Plateau was 1500-1700 DPS. DPS requirement for Gruul was about 425-450. Thats a 4x increase.

Well done for doing 3.5k at start of Wrath; MOST people were doing around 1.5-2k and ended up dong about 6-8k by the end.

All this is kinda irrelecant to the topic at hand, but yeah; those numbers aren't "way off" its just your personal experiences are outliers.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you know why garrosh had to heal himself twice in the raid encounter? Because if they made the 25 man heroic encounter with more than 2.1 billion HP the game would break.
Do you see why this cannot continue? Do you want raids that have bosses that only do this?

Theres more to this problem than you think. Its not enough to say "lol- i like big numbers." Its for the longevity of the game. Its stupid to think its not needed. If the next expansion follows the same trend like every other expansion, where HP and damage is multiplied by ~10 by the last tier of content, then it will be impossible to program raid bosses without this artificial mechanic.

Whut? Bosses have only just reached 10x the level they were in WRATH, let alone between the first and last tier of content. OR where are these 100 million HP bosses in t14 25 man?

[Raysz]

Being a Vanilla player myself it would be very weird going back to those numbers as it would feel as I haven't progressed at all in all those years. I wonder how they'll go about doing it.

[lockedout]

What you're describing is the "item squish" as it's known and it's been discussed for a long time now. If it's going to happen the popular opinion is it'll be announced tonight at blizzcon for the next expansion. If not tonight then probably won't happen at all.

Hopefully it doesn't I like 2.5 million chaosbolts.

[TyrantWave]

Do you know why garrosh had to heal himself twice in the raid encounter? Because if they made the 25 man heroic encounter with more than 2.1 billion HP the game would break.
Do you see why this cannot continue? Do you want raids that have bosses that only do this?

Theres more to this problem than you think. Its not enough to say "lol- i like big numbers." Its for the longevity of the game. Its stupid to think its not needed. If the next expansion follows the same trend like every other expansion, where HP and damage is multiplied by ~10 by the last tier of content, then it will be impossible to program raid bosses without this artificial mechanic.

Which is a different complaint for the squish than "Not liking big numbers".

Yes, the engine is currently at its limits. Blizz can either update their engine, or squish the numbers. They've gone with the latter.

[cityguy193]

No the numbes are pretty average. You killed Brutallus, well done for being representative of a tiny percentage of the playerbase. DPS requirements for Sunwell Plateau was 1500-1700 DPS. DPS requirement for Gruul was about 425-450. Thats a 4x increase.

Well done for doing 3.5k at start of Wrath; MOST people were doing around 1.5-2k and ended up dong about 6-8k by the end.

All this is kinda irrelecant to the topic at hand, but yeah; those numbers aren't "way off" its just your personal experiences are outliers.

- - - Updated - - -



Whut? Bosses have only just reached 10x the level they were in WRATH, let alone between the first and last tier of content. OR where are these 100 million HP bosses in t14 25 man?

Lich King: Health (25-player Heroic): 103,151,168 Wrath
Ultraxion: Health (25-player Heroic): 276,314,560 Cata

Sha of pride: Health (25-player Heroic): 1,850,385,280. That is in the billions. Do you see the massive jump?
Thok: Health (25-player Heroic): 1,919,002,752

If those numbers increase even by less than 50%, which is going to happen, every expansion jump basically doubles ilevels, then the game will break.
That is a problem, a gamebreaking problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Which is a different complaint for the squish than "Not liking big numbers".

Yes, the engine is currently at its limits. Blizz can either update their engine, or squish the numbers. They've gone with the latter.

I would be fine with either. But updating an entire game engine take A METRIC CRAP TON of resources. Resources which they might not have, so the cheaper option is to do the squish

Hence why the squish needs to happen, by the next expansion's start.

[Aquamonkey]

TC: "If we don't do the item squish it's going to require a lot of re-engineering of our combat code to actually support bigger numbers. We're getting really close to the point where the code can't..."
CS: "Yeah, the code can't compile the numbers"
TC: "Yeah it can't compile the numbers, so we are testing the item squish internally with the expansion, and I think a good time to launch it would be right before the next expansion so people are already used to it by the time the expansion launches. So, that's the current plan, but we'll see how it works out. I hope we can." (Source)

[Bigbazz]

No the numbes are pretty average. You killed Brutallus, well done for being representative of a tiny percentage of the playerbase. DPS requirements for Sunwell Plateau was 1500-1700 DPS. DPS requirement for Gruul was about 425-450. Thats a 4x increase.

Well done for doing 3.5k at start of Wrath; MOST people were doing around 1.5-2k and ended up dong about 6-8k by the end.

All this is kinda irrelecant to the topic at hand, but yeah; those numbers aren't "way off" its just your personal experiences are outliers.

- - - Updated - - -



Whut? Bosses have only just reached 10x the level they were in WRATH, let alone between the first and last tier of content. OR where are these 100 million HP bosses in t14 25 man?

If you were only doing 1500dps in Sunwell you weren't going to kill anything. Players were hitting 2k dps in Black Temple before Sunwell released, these same people struggled on the enrage to beat Brutallus, you were never going to beat Brutallus with a raid doing 1700dps each, you could carry someone doing that low if you had people (rogues/hunters/warlocks) making up the difference.

And really 8k dps in ICC would mean you were undergeared, that was around about the requirement to beat Festergut 25man Normal mode, at which point if you were in a normal mode progression guild you would be in the previous tiers Ilvl245 gear + whatever you managed to aquire up to that point. You can't base numbers on what non-raiders or puggers are doing at that point in an expansion when making dps number comparisons.

[cityguy193]

TC: "If we don't do the item squish it's going to require a lot of re-engineering of our combat code to actually support bigger numbers. We're getting really close to the point where the code can't..."
CS: "Yeah, the code can't compile the numbers"
TC: "Yeah it can't compile the numbers, so we are testing the item squish internally with the expansion, and I think a good time to launch it would be right before the next expansion so people are already used to it by the time the expansion launches. So, that's the current plan, but we'll see how it works out. I hope we can." (Source)

And blue confirmation to back my argument up .