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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    it doesnt, but the fact that 25's are harder to organize doesnt change the difficulty of the encounters.

    but if its too hard to understand, lets take away the "hard" word there and go with 25mans take more time to organize. the difficulty of organizing the two is the same.

    (inbefore argument "more time = harder", but according to that training dummies are the hardest encounters in wow since killing one takes infinite amount of time)
    Comparisons arnt your strongest point Lappe, im sorry :P. I disagree that 25mans just take more time to organize. It's not only time. A 25man community is just far more complex and problems tend to be far harder to sort with many different subgroups and different opinions. As said before, in 10man its easy to find likeminded people, in 25 you almost never have 25 likeminded people which causes issues that are just far harder and more complex to solve. Leading a 25man guild certainly takes more then leading a 10man, not just time wise. Many people have enough 'leadership' skills to manage a small 10man group, but cannot handle managing a 25man group.

    Just take something as simple as distributing loot. In 10man you need and greed, pass to your fellow raiders and use common sense (in 99% of the 10man raid teams this happens). In 25 man you need to figure out a complex loot system to keep everyone happy and give everyone the feeling they are getting properly rewarded. Which brings even more problems with people trying to game this loot system and pissing off others in the process. Its just far more complex, and 'more time' is certainly not the only thing it takes to manage.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    I kind of wonder about the cata kids complaining about losing their 10m and saying 25s arent affected. you never played through 40s going to 25 or the AQ 20/40s. downsizing from 40 is a pretty big deal. Other guilds benefited but at that time there was 40 or GTFO. at least this time players in 10 can field a ton of people looking for somewhere to raid and not all players left off a 25m are necessarily shitty ones. you can look your app over and see their guild history and ask extensive questions. or you can mass recruit test it out and then decide- especially if you want to field quantity then refine for quality (that doesnt always work but its an option).

    there are guilds better and worse recruiting just fine and people who want to raid will find somewhere to do it.

    You don't get it. 10HC raiders want to raid 10HC, and not shitty 20+man zergfests. I chose this way of raiding because it simply feels more rewarding, more challenging and more intimate than anything I experienced in 25man raiding.

    And Blizzard simply says: fuck you, its going away. Guess what: its the vast 10man hc scene that will go away, and that is everything BUT good for raiding in World of Warcraft.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    You don't get it. 10HC raiders want to raid 10HC, and not shitty 20+man zergfests. I chose this way of raiding because it simply feels more rewarding, more challenging and more intimate than anything I experienced in 25man raiding.

    And Blizzard simply says: fuck you, its going away. Guess what: its the vast 10man hc scene that will go away, and that is everything BUT good for raiding in World of Warcraft.
    you dont get it. 25s are def not zergfests. perhaps your computer cant handle 10 more bodies or you dont like people. if you dont like people then im sure an MMO isnt where you belong.


    from a group of friends perspective i never addressed it being the same thing intimately. although downing a boss, regardless of content size shouldnt matter. you get your acheesement on the screen, your guild gets a kill and you share victory with 9 or 24 other people.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    That first one is... a little disturbing. 10m heroics might be more like current heroics? So it's not exactly the equivalent of 5.x Normal then is it? Unless they go with ideas that have been pitches previously such as adding in the extra heroic mechanics without the huge increase of health/damage which I'd actually be okay with.

    Basically what I read out of that was him saying he feels 10H has just been tuned easier then 25H overall so the feeling of doing the new flex 10H wont change that much. It sort of reminds me of when they posted last tier that they had to nerf 10M normal not because they felt it was to hard but because they felt it was the same difficulty as 25 as 10 man normal groups had a terrible completion percentage because of that.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    you dont get it. 25s are def not zergfests. perhaps your computer cant handle 10 more bodies or you dont like people. if you dont like people then im sure an MMO isnt where you belong.
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    but 25s dont keep people THAT bad. nobody does. also to say 25ms you dont forge friendships is a load of bs. did somebody pee in your pool or not invite you to prom? and 25s certainly arent a zergfest. i will agree with the level of individual responsibility. however given the mechanics which focus 1 player in your 25 being capable of wiping an entire group can balance that out. there were many last tier and a few this tier which technically makes that point moot as well.

  7. #627
    When I think of it now, it just can't work. 20mans are simply not sustainable in current game condition. Such raiding format workend in the past simply because there was a lot of new blood coming to game. Nowadays, even if they manage to get subscriptions to rise, new players will be most likely typical spoiled brats and bigger raid format will only allow then to cause more drama. In the end 20mans will be decaying just as 25mans do now. Oh and don't fool yourself that enough 10mans will even want to step up, leaving alone wheter they would be able to. After this expansion Blizzard will have to either reintroduce 10man hc or scrap 'top' raiding format altogether.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    but 25s dont keep people THAT bad. nobody does. also to say 25ms you dont forge friendships is a load of bs. did somebody pee in your pool or not invite you to prom? and 25s certainly arent a zergfest. i will agree with the level of individual responsibility. however given the mechanics which focus 1 player in your 25 being capable of wiping an entire group can balance that out. there were many last tier and a few this tier which technically makes that point moot as well.
    In our guild, we raid together in basically the same setup for nearly 4 years now. We have annual RL meetings, a couple that recently had their first baby together and noone - literally noone - that we cannot have a good laugh with gets to raid with us. I dare you to show me ONE 25hc raiding guild with this level of social interaction.

    It simply won't happen.

  9. #629
    Bloodsail Admiral lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Comparisons arnt your strongest point Lappe, im sorry :P. I disagree that 25mans just take more time to organize. It's not only time. A 25man community is just far more complex and problems tend to be far harder to sort with many different subgroups and different opinions. As said before, in 10man its easy to find likeminded people, in 25 you almost never have 25 likeminded people which causes issues that are just far harder and more complex to solve. Leading a 25man guild certainly takes more then leading a 10man, not just time wise. Many people have enough 'leadership' skills to manage a small 10man group, but cannot handle managing a 25man group.
    Likeminded to you seems to be about agreeing on things like politics and such, while to me it means that they're wanting the same thing from raiding. Its not hard to find more players for it, just takes more time and as we're talking about mythic raiding thats what likeminded should mean. Leading difficulty of the two with this perspective is the same, 25mans just take more time.

    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Just take something as simple as distributing loot. In 10man you need and greed, pass to your fellow raiders and use common sense (in 99% of the 10man raid teams this happens). In 25 man you need to figure out a complex loot system to keep everyone happy and give everyone the feeling they are getting properly rewarded. Which brings even more problems with people trying to game this loot system and pissing off others in the process. Its just far more complex, and 'more time' is certainly not the only thing it takes to manage.
    According to you 25's arent likeminded at all when it comes to progression. While in fact the hardcore guilds distribute the loot without any complex systems but using common sense.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Luccas View Post
    When I think of it now, it just can't work. 20mans are simply not sustainable in current game condition. Such raiding format workend in the past simply because there was a lot of new blood coming to game. Nowadays, even if they manage to get subscriptions to rise, new players will be most likely typical spoiled brats and bigger raid format will only allow then to cause more drama. In the end 20mans will be decaying just as 25mans do now. Oh and don't fool yourself that enough 10mans will even want to step up, leaving alone wheter they would be able to. After this expansion Blizzard will have to either reintroduce 10man hc or scrap 'top' raiding format altogether.
    25s are still around and well sustained. if you look at wowprogress it is still one of the preferred versions of raiding. 10s are convenient for a lot. 10s are like fast food vs a nice steak restaurant the 25s can bring. just recall in firelands the 10ms doing legendary caster quest vs the 25s. 25s pounded them out quicker but they also had to MAKE MORE than the 10m ever would potentially need in teh perfect world.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    No, because having a high ping can easily be solved by buying a proper internet connection and has nothing to do with the format. However, the higher organisation difficulty is something that defines 25man and cannot be solved. It's the increased amount of players that CAUSE the higher organisation difficulty, its the mode itself that CAUSES it thus making that mode harder to complete thus increasing its difficulty.
    No it can't. I have the best internet connection available. Problem is I'm 9,000km away from Europe. Australians suffer the same problem with the servers they connect to. Once again a person that can't see anything but their own pov.

  12. #632
    Over 9000! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    I don't know why people are so upset about these changes. Judging from Wowprogress it will affect less than 1% player base.
    Because a large majority of people who browse the Raids and Dungeons forum are in 10 man guilds that I'd wager either do heroic content or aspire to do heroic content. It's really not hard to understand if you think about it.
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  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    By the sounds of your post, I think you either A. Didn't get recruited to a 25H guild and are pouting. B. Lack basic comprehension of the game C. Trolling, or D. Have never watched Blood Legion or Method raid.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    You never raided progression then. 10 mans can be just as shitty talent wise as a 25 man. Your acting like every ten man guild out there is some great guild when in fact there are just as many scrubs in tens mans (if not more) than 25s. I've raided progression since Vanilla and your generalization is completely false, you're the fanboi here buddy trying to portray your PoV as fact when it's just an opinion.

    20 mans are coming get use to it. Instead of spewing falsehoods in this thread perhaps you should be working towards the good of your guild.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    In our guild, we raid together in basically the same setup for nearly 4 years now. We have annual RL meetings, a couple that recently had their first baby together and noone - literally noone - that we cannot have a good laugh with gets to raid with us. I dare you to show me ONE 25hc raiding guild with this level of social interaction.

    It simply won't happen.
    you'd be surprised. many 25m i've ever been in has done annual meetings or used blizcon as an opportunity. it's foolish to think YOUR group is the only ones out there who could ever do it and base it off the fact of being 10s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid1 View Post
    You never raided progression then. 10 mans can be just as shitty talent wise as a 25 man. Your acting like every ten man guild out there is some great guild when in fact there are just as many scrubs in tens mans (if not more) than 25s. I've raided progression since Vanilla and your generalization is completely false, you're the fanboi here buddy trying to portray your PoV as fact when it's just an opinion.

    20 mans are coming get use to it. Instead of spewing falsehoods in this thread perhaps you should be working towards the good of your guild.
    thank you. /hi5.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    You are wrong and the reason you are wrong is probably not your fault. The reason you feel that way is that you have not noticed how over the years the fights have gotten more and more into the personal responsibility department so when you went to 10 man you saw that everyone had to play right in order to win whereas if you had stayed with 25H you would realize that change was also happening there just with the added annoyance of needed a way more coordinated strategy in general.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    By the sounds of your post, I think you either A. Didn't get recruited to a 25H guild and are pouting. B. Lack basic comprehension of the game C. Trolling, or D. Have never watched Blood Legion or Method raid.
    Because Method or Blood Legion are an adequate representation of the normal 25man hc raiding guild. Lolz.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholydevil View Post
    if you had stayed with 25H you would realize that change was also happening there just with the added annoyance of needed a way more coordinated strategy in general.
    personal responsibility is in both modes. one has more battle rezzes but it's balanced by the amount of "allowable deaths"

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    personal responsibility is in both modes. one has more battle rezzes but it's balanced by the amount of "allowable deaths"
    I am agreeing what I am saying is that the strategy though for a lot of early bosses was fairly straitforward and there was often only one mechanic or two you had to worry about provided it wasn't a final boss.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    Because Method or Blood Legion are an adequate representation of the normal 25man hc raiding guild. Lolz.
    Doesn't matter, you spoke in generalizations, I offered a counterpoint.

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