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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    No, because having a high ping can easily be solved by buying a proper internet connection and has nothing to do with the format. However, the higher organisation difficulty is something that defines 25man and cannot be solved. It's the increased amount of players that CAUSE the higher organisation difficulty, its the mode itself that CAUSES it thus making that mode harder to complete thus increasing its difficulty.
    Not really. It's the DNS servers that matters most. The internet connection helps a bit, but it's not the main thing. It's not like you magically get closer to the server from switching internet connections
    If you don't know how interwebs works you might not comment on it ^^

    You can get a connection that is closer to backbones, thus giving you a better ping. Fiber is pretty good at that, but it's not really something you see from the providers. You have to find out on your own
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  2. #622
    Mechagnome lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post

    I dont think anyone argues against the fact that australian players have a harder time on bosses because of their server location? This is just a fact. I dont see how this influences 10 more then 25 tho?
    it doesnt, but the fact that 25's are harder to organize doesnt change the difficulty of the encounters.

    but if its too hard to understand, lets take away the "hard" word there and go with 25mans take more time to organize. the difficulty of organizing the two is the same.

    (inbefore argument "more time = harder", but according to that training dummies are the hardest encounters in wow since killing one takes infinite amount of time)

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    I don't know why people are so upset about these changes. Judging from Wowprogress it will affect less than 1% player base.
    Because they're doing it to please an even smaller minority.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    WoW is in decline due to the age but what does throwing gas on the fire and accelerating the process accomplish? 25m raiders are unhindered and get to feel more unique while 10m guilds disband and players quit all together. It's going to be a disaster in EU especially where 10H guilds are vastly more popular due to language barriers on server

    Depending on your server, it's not even possible to double your size. This will just result in 10H guilds flat disbanding with the players quitting or low-med population servers that Blizzard has been trying to fix becoming more desolate and empty than ever with guilds flocking to high pops as the only chance to fill their ranks.

    It was bad enough for server health when 25m guilds were having to do this but now when the majority of raid guilds, the 10s, have to do this as well, queue times will be higher than ever for people on high pops and low pops will essentially wither and die.

    10m guilds run an average roster of 11-14. some even at 15 that do well. recruitment is always cyclical. most of the people worried are already struggling to hold their roster have more than attrition to worry about. likely not clearing the content so they dont have the necessary recruitment access of desirability, may not be on the most appealing server (which is an easy enough fix with xfers and a bit of research) or your current people drive people away with shitty attitudes, terrible personalities etc. 25m rosters run about 30-35 to feel healthy with some raid ready alts. both formats have to recruit/replace/recover with every tier; recruitment is never closed. so from a 25m perspective your worst 5 players probably started to worry and from a 10m perspective the lackluster/worst players are worried they cant find a new home if they have to search or guild as a whole cant attract recruits.

    Sesshou (1:20 nov 9) I don't know about "a lot harder." You seem to be assuming those that do 25m raids have 5 people who no one likes that play at a lower level, so this may shock you, but thats pretty unlikely. Whats really going to happen is either your 5 worst players are actually primarily still with you because everyone is friends with them (I mean generally there is a reason you would keep players around that are at a lower level than the majority of your raid without trying to replace them) or something like A says "lets drop mediocre player C" and then awesome player B says "he's my friend, if he goes I go."
    as other posts indicate, its not always your 5 worst that go packing - people have friends, preferred players and sometimes if X person goes 1-3 may follow (in which case it sucks but it happens) cuz odds are if you havent kicked them or replaced them they are there because of friends or history or dont mind hanging around and being more of a casual slot than a steady one. even on a 25M roster you have people subbed in and out and some see more progression than others. this wont change as a 20. if people dont leave or already havent left you still have a good selection for making swaps/class stacking/ ability use etc. to say WFIO (we're fucked! it's over!) seems a bit irrational especially with approximately 10-12 months notice of such a huge change.

    10s, in theory, could start building now and running a duo raid roster. 2 raid groups in 1 guild never hurt anyone (except when one is further progressed. then sometimes theres other issues which arise).

    25m guilds dont get to feel more unique. in history prior to cata you had:
    - vanilla 40m raids. try maintaining that roster if you're qq'n about 10 regular raiders and 25s going down to 10s because a 25m roster is harder to modulate. AQ 40 and AQ 20. one raid mode.
    - tbc: still had 1 raid mode, diff sizes again- for those who cared 1 dominant.
    - WOTLK: you had 2 lockouts 10-/25. people were upset that they felt obligated to run both modes to optimize progression in the main raid that mattered because back then, 10m existed but wasnt really "raiding" in perspective of gear as there was a gear difference between 10 and 25.
    - cata: want 10 and 25 to be the same lockout cuz 1yr of icc killed some guilds (esp not killing LK) so bliz said "here 1 gear set, dont have to do 2 raids a week and you can 10 if your guild is crumbling". people were angry that there was 1 gear set and no difference between doing 10 and 25.

    welcome to now, same story just a higher lvl cap.

    Depending on your server, it's not even possible to double your size. This will just result in 10H guilds flat disbanding with the players quitting or low-med population servers that Blizzard has been trying to fix becoming more desolate and empty than ever with guilds flocking to high pops as the only chance to fill their ranks.
    good guilds and even moderate to mid end guilds will attract recruits regardless of server. servers with no 25s or a huge pool of 10s will start poaching/ approaching and building. if you happen to be on a lesser server, high pop isnt your only option. do some research and consider moving as a whole to a medium pop or a server with a few higher rankings or medium rankings with a decent pool to choose from on server.

    with server xfers and crossrealm action it isnt like pre LFG/ LFR queues where you had to /2 LFM.


    from a recruiting perspective; most 25s dont run strictly a 25m tight roster. if you have one AFK,net goes out, cat-on-fire night you'd be boned. many 10s do run a tighter roster sitting at 12-15 and even a solid 10 from reading through the thread. you guys gain 10+ people and 25s shred 10 or so. nobody is going to run JUST 20 bodies. you need subs for fights, afk, class benefits like soaks/ absorbs/ cds etc to make encounters easier or facilitate mechanics (LOL BOP paragons). 25s will lose good players, moderate players, bad players - attrition happens at all levels during different phases of a tier and season. to say you cant or simply wont be able to handle the in-take for recruitment because bodies wont be there seems a bit silly and I don't get it. you will have a plathora of players all over. some may knock on your door others you may hunt down or friend-of-friend them. Some will be stellar and fit your needs. others may lick windows. you trial them. and as you do now, you either sub them or cut them or hope they go away by benching them and not even giving them a casual filler slot.


    the math here seems pretty straight forward. both sides are looking at 10 but from different ends of the gauge.

    then again the level of literacy from people complaining has been pretty clear since 13+ pages have giant text saying "MYTHIC ISNT NEW ITS RENAMED HEROIC AND DIFFICULTIES ARE BEING SHIFTED AROUND".

    the nice thing for 25s is having the flex heroic version allows them to cycle their bench in. you don't solely want to gear only 20 players. you need to think about AFK/ IRL break/ cant afford sub QQ/ internet goes out etc issues. or hey maybe you need 3 pallies for certain fights and 3 priests on another etc. if you dont think about the lifeblood of your raid from CDS, class benefits, AFK etc (whatever size you currently raid) you're gonna have a hard time.

    this explains your recruitment problems— at least to me. it's not the volume of bodies you need to find, it's the way you approach recruiting.


    it's also important to note just because it was announced, doesn't make it carved in stone and final. there's likely other changes and for all intensive purposes could be scratched. think of all the leaked info like ethereals being playable race, pandas being launched in TBC, the mount off Hrag being green, etc etc.


    and further in I also read people complaining about not having enough time or needing enough warning before these changes happen: the xpac is 10-12 months tentatively from now (averaging beta life being 6-8 months). I'm pretty sure just ANNOUNCING 20M is coming NOW is plenty of time to at least start an action plan or discussions amongst your raiding teammates.


    I kind of wonder about the cata kids complaining about losing their 10m and saying 25s arent affected. you never played through 40s going to 25 or the AQ 20/40s. downsizing from 40 is a pretty big deal. Other guilds benefited but at that time there was 40 or GTFO. at least this time players in 10 can field a ton of people looking for somewhere to raid and not all players left off a 25m are necessarily shitty ones. you can look your app over and see their guild history and ask extensive questions. or you can mass recruit test it out and then decide- especially if you want to field quantity then refine for quality (that doesnt always work but its an option).

    there are guilds better and worse recruiting just fine and people who want to raid will find somewhere to do it.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    it doesnt, but the fact that 25's are harder to organize doesnt change the difficulty of the encounters.

    but if its too hard to understand, lets take away the "hard" word there and go with 25mans take more time to organize. the difficulty of organizing the two is the same.

    (inbefore argument "more time = harder", but according to that training dummies are the hardest encounters in wow since killing one takes infinite amount of time)
    Comparisons arnt your strongest point Lappe, im sorry :P. I disagree that 25mans just take more time to organize. It's not only time. A 25man community is just far more complex and problems tend to be far harder to sort with many different subgroups and different opinions. As said before, in 10man its easy to find likeminded people, in 25 you almost never have 25 likeminded people which causes issues that are just far harder and more complex to solve. Leading a 25man guild certainly takes more then leading a 10man, not just time wise. Many people have enough 'leadership' skills to manage a small 10man group, but cannot handle managing a 25man group.

    Just take something as simple as distributing loot. In 10man you need and greed, pass to your fellow raiders and use common sense (in 99% of the 10man raid teams this happens). In 25 man you need to figure out a complex loot system to keep everyone happy and give everyone the feeling they are getting properly rewarded. Which brings even more problems with people trying to game this loot system and pissing off others in the process. Its just far more complex, and 'more time' is certainly not the only thing it takes to manage.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    I kind of wonder about the cata kids complaining about losing their 10m and saying 25s arent affected. you never played through 40s going to 25 or the AQ 20/40s. downsizing from 40 is a pretty big deal. Other guilds benefited but at that time there was 40 or GTFO. at least this time players in 10 can field a ton of people looking for somewhere to raid and not all players left off a 25m are necessarily shitty ones. you can look your app over and see their guild history and ask extensive questions. or you can mass recruit test it out and then decide- especially if you want to field quantity then refine for quality (that doesnt always work but its an option).

    there are guilds better and worse recruiting just fine and people who want to raid will find somewhere to do it.

    You don't get it. 10HC raiders want to raid 10HC, and not shitty 20+man zergfests. I chose this way of raiding because it simply feels more rewarding, more challenging and more intimate than anything I experienced in 25man raiding.

    And Blizzard simply says: fuck you, its going away. Guess what: its the vast 10man hc scene that will go away, and that is everything BUT good for raiding in World of Warcraft.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    You don't get it. 10HC raiders want to raid 10HC, and not shitty 20+man zergfests. I chose this way of raiding because it simply feels more rewarding, more challenging and more intimate than anything I experienced in 25man raiding.

    And Blizzard simply says: fuck you, its going away. Guess what: its the vast 10man hc scene that will go away, and that is everything BUT good for raiding in World of Warcraft.
    you dont get it. 25s are def not zergfests. perhaps your computer cant handle 10 more bodies or you dont like people. if you dont like people then im sure an MMO isnt where you belong.


    from a group of friends perspective i never addressed it being the same thing intimately. although downing a boss, regardless of content size shouldnt matter. you get your acheesement on the screen, your guild gets a kill and you share victory with 9 or 24 other people.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    That first one is... a little disturbing. 10m heroics might be more like current heroics? So it's not exactly the equivalent of 5.x Normal then is it? Unless they go with ideas that have been pitches previously such as adding in the extra heroic mechanics without the huge increase of health/damage which I'd actually be okay with.

    Basically what I read out of that was him saying he feels 10H has just been tuned easier then 25H overall so the feeling of doing the new flex 10H wont change that much. It sort of reminds me of when they posted last tier that they had to nerf 10M normal not because they felt it was to hard but because they felt it was the same difficulty as 25 as 10 man normal groups had a terrible completion percentage because of that.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    you dont get it. 25s are def not zergfests. perhaps your computer cant handle 10 more bodies or you dont like people. if you dont like people then im sure an MMO isnt where you belong.
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    but 25s dont keep people THAT bad. nobody does. also to say 25ms you dont forge friendships is a load of bs. did somebody pee in your pool or not invite you to prom? and 25s certainly arent a zergfest. i will agree with the level of individual responsibility. however given the mechanics which focus 1 player in your 25 being capable of wiping an entire group can balance that out. there were many last tier and a few this tier which technically makes that point moot as well.

  11. #631
    When I think of it now, it just can't work. 20mans are simply not sustainable in current game condition. Such raiding format workend in the past simply because there was a lot of new blood coming to game. Nowadays, even if they manage to get subscriptions to rise, new players will be most likely typical spoiled brats and bigger raid format will only allow then to cause more drama. In the end 20mans will be decaying just as 25mans do now. Oh and don't fool yourself that enough 10mans will even want to step up, leaving alone wheter they would be able to. After this expansion Blizzard will have to either reintroduce 10man hc or scrap 'top' raiding format altogether.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by vezxen View Post
    but 25s dont keep people THAT bad. nobody does. also to say 25ms you dont forge friendships is a load of bs. did somebody pee in your pool or not invite you to prom? and 25s certainly arent a zergfest. i will agree with the level of individual responsibility. however given the mechanics which focus 1 player in your 25 being capable of wiping an entire group can balance that out. there were many last tier and a few this tier which technically makes that point moot as well.
    In our guild, we raid together in basically the same setup for nearly 4 years now. We have annual RL meetings, a couple that recently had their first baby together and noone - literally noone - that we cannot have a good laugh with gets to raid with us. I dare you to show me ONE 25hc raiding guild with this level of social interaction.

    It simply won't happen.

  13. #633
    Mechagnome lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Comparisons arnt your strongest point Lappe, im sorry :P. I disagree that 25mans just take more time to organize. It's not only time. A 25man community is just far more complex and problems tend to be far harder to sort with many different subgroups and different opinions. As said before, in 10man its easy to find likeminded people, in 25 you almost never have 25 likeminded people which causes issues that are just far harder and more complex to solve. Leading a 25man guild certainly takes more then leading a 10man, not just time wise. Many people have enough 'leadership' skills to manage a small 10man group, but cannot handle managing a 25man group.
    Likeminded to you seems to be about agreeing on things like politics and such, while to me it means that they're wanting the same thing from raiding. Its not hard to find more players for it, just takes more time and as we're talking about mythic raiding thats what likeminded should mean. Leading difficulty of the two with this perspective is the same, 25mans just take more time.

    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Just take something as simple as distributing loot. In 10man you need and greed, pass to your fellow raiders and use common sense (in 99% of the 10man raid teams this happens). In 25 man you need to figure out a complex loot system to keep everyone happy and give everyone the feeling they are getting properly rewarded. Which brings even more problems with people trying to game this loot system and pissing off others in the process. Its just far more complex, and 'more time' is certainly not the only thing it takes to manage.
    According to you 25's arent likeminded at all when it comes to progression. While in fact the hardcore guilds distribute the loot without any complex systems but using common sense.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Luccas View Post
    When I think of it now, it just can't work. 20mans are simply not sustainable in current game condition. Such raiding format workend in the past simply because there was a lot of new blood coming to game. Nowadays, even if they manage to get subscriptions to rise, new players will be most likely typical spoiled brats and bigger raid format will only allow then to cause more drama. In the end 20mans will be decaying just as 25mans do now. Oh and don't fool yourself that enough 10mans will even want to step up, leaving alone wheter they would be able to. After this expansion Blizzard will have to either reintroduce 10man hc or scrap 'top' raiding format altogether.
    25s are still around and well sustained. if you look at wowprogress it is still one of the preferred versions of raiding. 10s are convenient for a lot. 10s are like fast food vs a nice steak restaurant the 25s can bring. just recall in firelands the 10ms doing legendary caster quest vs the 25s. 25s pounded them out quicker but they also had to MAKE MORE than the 10m ever would potentially need in teh perfect world.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    No, because having a high ping can easily be solved by buying a proper internet connection and has nothing to do with the format. However, the higher organisation difficulty is something that defines 25man and cannot be solved. It's the increased amount of players that CAUSE the higher organisation difficulty, its the mode itself that CAUSES it thus making that mode harder to complete thus increasing its difficulty.
    No it can't. I have the best internet connection available. Problem is I'm 9,000km away from Europe. Australians suffer the same problem with the servers they connect to. Once again a person that can't see anything but their own pov.

  16. #636
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    I don't know why people are so upset about these changes. Judging from Wowprogress it will affect less than 1% player base.
    Because a large majority of people who browse the Raids and Dungeons forum are in 10 man guilds that I'd wager either do heroic content or aspire to do heroic content. It's really not hard to understand if you think about it.
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  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    By the sounds of your post, I think you either A. Didn't get recruited to a 25H guild and are pouting. B. Lack basic comprehension of the game C. Trolling, or D. Have never watched Blood Legion or Method raid.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    You never raided progression then. 10 mans can be just as shitty talent wise as a 25 man. Your acting like every ten man guild out there is some great guild when in fact there are just as many scrubs in tens mans (if not more) than 25s. I've raided progression since Vanilla and your generalization is completely false, you're the fanboi here buddy trying to portray your PoV as fact when it's just an opinion.

    20 mans are coming get use to it. Instead of spewing falsehoods in this thread perhaps you should be working towards the good of your guild.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    In our guild, we raid together in basically the same setup for nearly 4 years now. We have annual RL meetings, a couple that recently had their first baby together and noone - literally noone - that we cannot have a good laugh with gets to raid with us. I dare you to show me ONE 25hc raiding guild with this level of social interaction.

    It simply won't happen.
    you'd be surprised. many 25m i've ever been in has done annual meetings or used blizcon as an opportunity. it's foolish to think YOUR group is the only ones out there who could ever do it and base it off the fact of being 10s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid1 View Post
    You never raided progression then. 10 mans can be just as shitty talent wise as a 25 man. Your acting like every ten man guild out there is some great guild when in fact there are just as many scrubs in tens mans (if not more) than 25s. I've raided progression since Vanilla and your generalization is completely false, you're the fanboi here buddy trying to portray your PoV as fact when it's just an opinion.

    20 mans are coming get use to it. Instead of spewing falsehoods in this thread perhaps you should be working towards the good of your guild.
    thank you. /hi5.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by FordStallion View Post
    I raided 25s for probably longer than many of the fanbois here, and I know what its like. Individual skill and responsibility are borderline irrelevant, and most 25s take along a heap of windowlicking keyboardturners just to fill their slots, while still managing to make "progress" because 15 of the 25 players actually do stuff ingame. Its just shitty pve that caters to large-scale guilds with little to no social bonds besides who gets a fucking slot in the weekly zergfest.

    There is no such room for error in 10HC, and I like it that way.
    You are wrong and the reason you are wrong is probably not your fault. The reason you feel that way is that you have not noticed how over the years the fights have gotten more and more into the personal responsibility department so when you went to 10 man you saw that everyone had to play right in order to win whereas if you had stayed with 25H you would realize that change was also happening there just with the added annoyance of needed a way more coordinated strategy in general.

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