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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    This is true for doing anything world first.

    Someone wont win any olympic gold medal without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont win an oscar without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont wint be nobel price without dedicating his life to it. Being the best in the world at something OBVIOUSLY takes dedication and time. This is true for anything in life. I'm not sure what your trying to prove here? That you could beat Paragon if you just dedicated enough time to it? That you could run the 100 meters as fast as Usane Bolt if you just practiced enough and dedicated enough time to it?
    I don't think an usain bolt metaphor works very well here. That implies that getting to the level of someone to be able to beat someone else requires training, rather than time. Heck, I can't think of any sports metaphor that would accurately describe it. Basicly what I mean is, if something requires 200 hours to do, then obviously the guys able to dedicate 80 hours a week will be done far quicker than the guys able to dedicate 40, 20, 10 and so forth. It's part of being highly ranked, and no guild, no matter the skill, can substitute the amount of raid hours for "pure skill" to maintain their ranking - there simply isn't a big enough difference between them =P.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    There are several. I am counting 5 right now, that finished under top 20 world 25 man that raid 5 days/20-22hours a week. A 20 hour raid schedule is becoming a common thing with guilds in the top 50. There are 3-4 day (15 hour) guilds that have already cleared SoO on heroic. You only have 10 or so guilds that raid over 6 days a week, and some of those guilds actually got beat by 4-5 day guilds.
    now remove all of them that "say" they raid 5 days a week, but in reality add a 6th day or extends a few hours / start early every night. You're down to none :/.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    he raids 25 man, something a cursory reading of what i he has said revealed to you.
    i saw a HC Garrosh first kill where 8 people died.
    sure i would not in any way shape or form perform better, but 8 people died but when you are playing in lol 25 man mode (not serious here) that doesn't matter.
    9 people died in paragon's garrosh kill. Lol 10 man can be solo'd xdxdxd.
    We have no context for when or how those people died in that 25 man, need to add that if you're going to use it as an example =P.
    (and yes, I know full well that the boss was at 1% when the 9 people died on paragon's kill, but that's kind of the point :P).

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawler24 View Post
    Didn't read the whole discussion so sorry if this has been said already. Reading your posts and looking at your sig indicates to me that you really never raided at the very cutting edge. Just bringing dps parses into the discussion and drawing conclusions on the performance of those players is just a sign you should probably raid 2 weeks with a real top guild during progression to realize what seperates good from great dps. And it's certainly not top parses.

    There isn't even a question if those players are able to execute a pefect rotation at that level. What seperates them is what I call smart play, and that includes a myriad of little things, things most players don't even think about and those things have nothing to do with dps output. It's about staying alive, keeping others alive and improvising on the spot.

    I raided #5-#10 25 world for years and what held us back from ranking higher was not time invested or anything like that it was players who would rank great but had no clue or ability to bring anything else to the table, didn't adapt to unforseen events in a bossfight, forgot about half their abilities which had nothing to to with numbers and made wrong decisions when Plan A failed. Really smart players a VERY hard to find, and this is what Paragon i.e. always seperated from most other guilds. They had and have those in abundance, people who react right in crucial situations, see the whole picture of a fight, people who understand all parts of the fight in detail and not just their 5 button rotation.

    Those people interestingly tend to be not interested at all in WoL ranks.
    I haven't no, but maybe someday =P? I doubt I'd find it hard to be part of such an enviroment. There is a clear difference between some raiders skills in terms of reaction to specific events or things going wrong, and if you can field an entire dreamteam of those players, then yea, you've got a dreamteam. That said, I find it hard to believe that there are a much bigger concentration of those players in the top end, atleast in 25 man. Perhaps in 10 man? Either way, in 25, a big criteria is always both output + avialability (spell?). Meeting those two (being great at dps/healing, having the time to spend on progress) AND being a smart thinker is the sacred trifecter.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-11 at 06:27 PM.

  2. #782
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmz View Post
    there are several. I am counting 5 right now, that finished under top 20 world 25 man that raid 5 days/20-22hours a week. A 20 hour raid schedule is becoming a common thing with guilds in the top 50. There are 3-4 day (15 hour) guilds that have already cleared soo on heroic. You only have 10 or so guilds that raid over 6 days a week, and some of those guilds actually got beat by 4-5 day guilds.
    oh hai palmz

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    now remove all of them that "say" they raid 5 days a week, but in reality add a 6th day or extends a few hours / start early every night. You're down to none :/.
    [/FONT]
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    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-11-11 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #783
    8 people in 25 = 2.7~ people in 10

    I've seen Garrosh 10 kills with 3 people dead, what's your point?

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I don't think an usain bolt metaphor works very well here. That implies that getting to the level of someone to be able to beat someone else requires training, rather than time. Heck, I can't think of any sports metaphor that would accurately describe it. Basicly what I mean is, if something requires 200 hours to do, then obviously the guys able to dedicate 80 hours a week will be done far quicker than the guys able to dedicate 40, 20, 10 and so forth. It's part of being highly ranked, and no guild, no matter the skill, can substitute the amount of raid hours for "pure skill" to maintain their ranking - there simply isn't a big enough difference between them =P.
    Being a good raider in wow requires training aswell. If you believe anyone can start playing wow during a patch release and raid top-end that week by just spending time raiding your delusional. Becoming a veteran raider that knows all ins and outs of this game requires quite some training. You cant say 'I can run the 100 meters in 20 seconds while training only 1 hour per week and Usane Bolt requires 6 hours training per day to run in 10 seconds, im obviously the best sprinter here'. No, obviously Usane Bolt is the better sprinter here. And obviously someone playing in paragon is the better player aswell, no matter how much time he puts into it, that IS being a better player, being able to dedicate that time needed in it to become the best, while having enough talent to do so.
    Last edited by willemh; 2013-11-11 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Being a good raider in wow requires training aswell. If you believe anyone can start playing wow during a patch release and raid top-end that week by just spending time raiding your delusional. Becoming a veteran raider that knows all ins and outs of this game requires quite some training. You cant say 'I can run the 100 meters in 20 seconds while training only 1 hour per week and Usane Bolt requires 6 hours training per day to run in 10 seconds, im obviously the best sprinter here'. No, obviously Usane Bolt is the better sprinter here. And obviously someone playing in paragon is the better player aswell, no matter how much time he puts into it, that IS being a better player, being able to dedicate that time needed in it to become the best, while having enough talent to do so.
    Yes, but you have to assume that their competition here are just as veteran as they are. It's not a "from scratch" - every guild in the top 100 is filled with experienced raiders who knows the in and outs. Some just spends more, some spends less - thats the entire issue =P.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Yes, but you have to assume that their competition here are just as veteran as they are. It's not a "from scratch" - every guild in the top 100 is filled with experienced raiders who knows the in and outs. Some just spends more, some spends less - thats the entire issue =P.
    You think that in the whole human populations there arnt any people who could run as fast as Usane Bolt either if they put in enough time? Those in the top are dedicated to a goal and deserve all the credit there is, not some grumpy guy saying 'I could do the same if I would just spend time'. That makes no sense.

  7. #787
    Great change for competitive PvE. Brings a little bit of prestige back into raiding. Might actually consider doing some of it after a few expansion break.

  8. #788
    Bloodsail Admiral lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anuhk View Post
    Why do you add that in the end? Can't carry anyone in a world first guild at all, nomatter 25 or 10.

    Can't wait for 20m so we get rid off people like you.
    Because there's always skill differences, even in the top guilds. In 10 mans it tends to be smaller due to smaller amount of players but trust me when I say this, you do carry 1-5 players in 25man (talking from experience)

  9. #789
    Bloodsail Admiral lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post

    The only kind of WoL ranking that interests me personally is comparing speed kills between guilds, everything else is totally irrelevant in my opinion.
    Speed of clears* because speed kills take extra time to set up

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Pearl View Post
    People have been asking for this a long time, 1 raid size.
    Will be pretty boring though, no more hate threads about 10 vs 25 man
    FLEX 10-25 HEROIC > MYTHIC There ya go enjoy lol.

  11. #791
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    Please cut back on the X can whore that, this can be done like that, that guild is full Y etc stuff. Stick to pros and cons and general discussion about Mythic 20 man ^^
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  12. #792
    Even tho at this time i have no idea what my guild will do to fix us up (10 man ), i guess we just gotta make the best of it.
    No fucking way i'm going to be doing normals for 6+ months at a time.
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  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanaiya View Post
    LOL, you guys are so clueless. Stop pretending that 25 mans are more difficult. More difficult to put together and organize, yes, but then the actual raid gives you allowances for getting that far. Example: Not having the proportionate amount of Imploding Energy swirls on Malkorok (25 man should have 1-2 more than they do); not to mention many more players to fill the same sized room. My example is that of an easy fight, but then makes it easy to point out details.
    Blizzard tried to balance the two versions of the raid, but in the end nothing beats having 15 more people with all sorts of extra cd's and abilties. 25 man is lenient on an individual players ability while 10 man will better test the skill of the player.
    it has nothing at all to do with fucking skill.

    the select encounters everyone is citing are *broken* in 10m due to their inability to scale.

    They were not designed to be 10M fights. Ever. If they had been, there would not be such a drastic difference in execution of the mechanics.

  14. #794
    Question!!

    since mythic has its own separate lockout does that mean you cant skip bosses like we did in past tier?? (example skipping troll council and go do iron qon)

    i know Soo had nice linear difficulty but previous tiers didnt (im looking at you vizer /shakefist)

    anyways its not a concern but it does make the whole progression interesting :P
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  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    Question!!

    since mythic has its own separate lockout does that mean you cant skip bosses like we did in past tier?? (example skipping troll council and go do iron qon)

    i know Soo had nice linear difficulty but previous tiers didnt (im looking at you vizer /shakefist)

    anyways its not a concern but it does make the whole progression interesting :P
    Theoretically, yes. There is no toggling "normal mode" on and off, so unless they make the boss less linear (think ICC and Ulduar), you will be forced to go in a straight line.
    It also does raise the question, "what about clear ups?"
    It'll probably change the "farming" during progress quite a bit - you'd be doing normal mode the first evening to get everyone tier and trinkets, then straight on to heroic farm, and keep on progressing right untill raid's over mon/tues (depending on US/EU). I'd actually prefer this a lot - how many here has put off 1 hr to clear up 2-3 remaining normal bosses to squeeze in more progress, then end up not getting the kills because of derp? Or on the other hand, putting 2 hrs aside for clearing, then doing it in 1, and wasting an hour? <---- this guy!

  16. #796
    Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
    The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.

    That is what it should have been in the first place, a single size for the top-level raiding of a given tier.

    Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.
    I understand why there was the 10 vs 25m split, to be as inclusive as possible but in the end a variety of issues simply messed it up.
    Partly the community, partly the fundamental flaw in trying to balance the two.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
    The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.
    The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."


    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.
    Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."
    I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.

    One part in particular that I disagree with:
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."
    The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
    Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
    Making recruitment easier via better tools would be ok. But making/keeping recruitment easy by keeping small numbers, or even making them smaller (e.g. i heard lately from someone, he would want nh/hc to be expanded down to 5 players, because they don't have 10 in their guild) would definitively hurt raiding. On one panel Ian Hazzikostas said explicitly, that they had some mechanics in mind in the past, which they just could not implement for 10 players. Only implementing them for 25 would lead to an unbalanced content. Making different raids for both sizes would be a waste of ressources.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits
    I agree there, it makes their job easier. The question is: Does this result in a better balanced endgame, and in a better experience for the players? I think it will do.

  19. #799
    I am Murloc! goblinpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.
    about 1% clear it on HC, less than say 5 does a few bosses in there, how much more exclusive do you want it to be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
    Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
    And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.
    not harder content.
    larger hurdles to get in.
    this wont make content one whit harder.
    but it will reduce the amount of people doing them.
    Those things are Bad.
    making it lol content would be bad, but making it require 20 people is also bad.
    case and point mythic is now 50 people to be truly epic, most peoples computers cant handle that let alone the server but thats the the same thing for 25 as for 10 to 20 so please get it Through your skull It Is A Bad Idea.
    Last edited by goblinpaladin; 2013-11-12 at 10:49 AM.
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  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.
    I very well understand the difference. If you look at the quote I was answering to, it said:
    They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall.
    I was explicitly answering to that, if you read the underlined part you'll understand my post and why it was referring to making it harder / easier to get into.

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