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  1. #801
    Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
    The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.

    That is what it should have been in the first place, a single size for the top-level raiding of a given tier.

    Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.
    I understand why there was the 10 vs 25m split, to be as inclusive as possible but in the end a variety of issues simply messed it up.
    Partly the community, partly the fundamental flaw in trying to balance the two.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
    The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.
    The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."


    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.
    Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."
    I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.

    One part in particular that I disagree with:
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."
    The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
    Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
    Making recruitment easier via better tools would be ok. But making/keeping recruitment easy by keeping small numbers, or even making them smaller (e.g. i heard lately from someone, he would want nh/hc to be expanded down to 5 players, because they don't have 10 in their guild) would definitively hurt raiding. On one panel Ian Hazzikostas said explicitly, that they had some mechanics in mind in the past, which they just could not implement for 10 players. Only implementing them for 25 would lead to an unbalanced content. Making different raids for both sizes would be a waste of ressources.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits
    I agree there, it makes their job easier. The question is: Does this result in a better balanced endgame, and in a better experience for the players? I think it will do.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.
    about 1% clear it on HC, less than say 5 does a few bosses in there, how much more exclusive do you want it to be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
    Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
    And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.
    not harder content.
    larger hurdles to get in.
    this wont make content one whit harder.
    but it will reduce the amount of people doing them.
    Those things are Bad.
    making it lol content would be bad, but making it require 20 people is also bad.
    case and point mythic is now 50 people to be truly epic, most peoples computers cant handle that let alone the server but thats the the same thing for 25 as for 10 to 20 so please get it Through your skull It Is A Bad Idea.
    Last edited by goblinpaladin; 2013-11-12 at 10:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    You can link me the legal definition of "rape" all you want. Those are the actual conviction statistics.
    this poster seem incapable of understanding that the legal definition of something is paramount in what is actually considered a crime,
    and consequently who gets convicted.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.
    I very well understand the difference. If you look at the quote I was answering to, it said:
    They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall.
    I was explicitly answering to that, if you read the underlined part you'll understand my post and why it was referring to making it harder / easier to get into.

  6. #806
    Pandaren Monk Akraen's Avatar
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    I was a guild leader during TBC, and let me tell ya, Karazhan made the conversion from 40 to 25 very difficult. Servers completely transformed.

    Our guild struggled because no matter how I shuffled up players, there was an A-Team instantly. Was a lot of drama. We survived well, but so many other guilds didn't.

    I don't think this will be too tough. Healthy guilds with good leadership will survive. Cliques will die. That's going to be healthy for the game

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Damnitbobby View Post
    FLEX 10-25 HEROIC > MYTHIC
    No, no and NO over and over again.

    This would be a total and utter CLUSTER FUCK and would be impossible to tune.

    The ENTIRE reason they are doing this is that they can tune the hardest fights in the game better.

  8. #808
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

    Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.
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  10. #810
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fneelis View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

    Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    If you care so little then why do you even have to make such a comment? Looking up to people is almost as laughable as being a moderator on a forum about games sup with that

    I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.

  12. #812
    bitching about it will change nothing, just accept the changes and move on.
    10man can still do normal raids, if they want to do hc content, they will have to merge or recruit
    25man guilds will have to rotate or downsize

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    They are bitching because this change makes 2/3 of all 10 mans die, horribly in a fire.
    Since the guilds are Dying IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    You can link me the legal definition of "rape" all you want. Those are the actual conviction statistics.
    this poster seem incapable of understanding that the legal definition of something is paramount in what is actually considered a crime,
    and consequently who gets convicted.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyalo View Post
    No. Mythic is the current 'Heroic', but is limited to 20people.

    What is Paragon going to do? Disband?
    Paragon is going to put on their big boy pants, bring back some of their old raiders, recruit a few new ones, and then give Method a run for their money.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by -Tuigan View Post
    If you care so little then why do you even have to make such a comment? Looking up to people is almost as laughable as being a moderator on a forum about games sup with that

    I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.
    He cares so little that in the poll of what heroic raiders think about 20m mythic he voted pro even though he still hasn't completed normal SoO.

  16. #816
    Nice, i cant freaking wait

  17. #817
    I'm not sure if someone mentioned this before, but forcing 20 man raids on everyone is mostly going to be hurting non-English speaking guilds.

    Over half the 10 man raiding guilds on my server are non-English speaking guilds. We've got a Finnish guild, a Polish guild, a Spanish guild, a Swedish guild, a Turkish guild and so on. I'm pretty sure this is the number one reason 10 man raiding is so exceptionally popular in Europe. Most people are just much more comfortable communicating in their own language.

    It's already pretty damn hard just to find 15 people speaking your language who can share your raiding schedule, are on your skill level, are playing the role you need and just happen to be looking for a guild. Needing to do this for the 25+ people required to run a successful 20 man raiding guild is going to be an absolute nightmare.

    In short, I think forcing 20 man raids on everyone will have significant changes for the worse for the European raiding scene. It will be forcing a lot (and I mean a whole fucking lot) of people out of the raiding game, simply due to language barriers.
    Last edited by Akylios; 2013-11-16 at 12:38 PM.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.
    It is the end of the world for them though in raiding terms. Recruitment will be a huge issue, especially in Europe where y'know, theres more than one language in play. Also, a lot of people enjoy the atmosphere of 10's and will just quit rather than lose that.
    If you think that's crazy then you're pretty blinkered.

    If you take the HC raiding population as the only people to be affected by this then 10's are by far the majority. What service provider in their right mind screws over the majority of a segment to make the experience more pleasurable for the minority? It beggars belief.

    I just can't see how the gains they expect from this outweigh the negatives. Perceived benefits:
    - It ends the 10/25 debate. The whole debate is just a smoke screen and excuse to hurl a few derogatory comments at the other size to stroke your own ego.
    - It makes tuning easier. Granted. Everyone appreciates someone who makes a product on the cheap "because its easier"
    - The much vaunted "unique mechanics". I'm sure that shit will get old quickly. They can do far more with an extra action button than they can with class mechanics. An extra action button lets the raid choose who they feel would be most suited for a task rather than "oh the priest has to do it"

    On top of this, whats the maximum gain they can get from this? Do they think people that have been away from the game for years will flock back to it in droves because 10 man heroics are no longer on the table? They're fucking nuts if they think that will happen.

    Anyway, its a circular debate. I can't wait for all the intelligent "lol recruit iz eezy" and "10 man isn't raiding anyway" rebuttals.

  19. #819
    Can't wait for Mythic raids.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    They are bitching because this change makes 2/3 of all 10 mans die, horribly in a fire.
    Since the guilds are Dying IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
    Of course, doubling the raid size makes at least half of the 10 man guilds redundant; that is to be expected unless there is a huge increase in the amount of people raiding. In fact, it's going to be way more than half that will die.

    -I don't think there will be any significant influx in recruitment from 25 man raiders that got cut moving to 20 man. Almost all of the need to reduce roster size for 25 mans will be absorbed by natural roster churn. A LOT of people quit every expansion.
    -The number of raiding guilds drops significantly with each expansion. In the US in T13, there were 1282 25 man guilds with at least one heroic kill and 17,012 10 man guilds. In the first tier of Cata (as of today), there are only 603 25 man heroic guilds and 5669 heroic 10 man guilds. That means there was a 53% decrease in the amount of 25H raiding guilds and a staggering 67% decrease in the amount of 10H raiding guilds in the transition from Cata to MoP.
    -If we assume the numbers from T14 (which are lower than the numbers in T16 so far but more guilds will hit heroics by the end of the expansion) and the same rate of decay from MoP to WoD, we would be left with a baseline of 283 25 man guilds and 1871 10 man guilds. Assuming that the surviving 25 man guilds just go 20 man with their existing roster churn, we would be left with 936 20 man guilds that emerged from the removal of 10H raiding and 283 20 man guilds that were former 25 man guilds.

    The reality is that it's likely more like 85% of current 10H man guilds will cease to exist by the first tier in WoD.

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