One part in particular that I disagree with:
Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
Making recruitment easier via better tools would be ok. But making/keeping recruitment easy by keeping small numbers, or even making them smaller (e.g. i heard lately from someone, he would want nh/hc to be expanded down to 5 players, because they don't have 10 in their guild) would definitively hurt raiding. On one panel Ian Hazzikostas said explicitly, that they had some mechanics in mind in the past, which they just could not implement for 10 players. Only implementing them for 25 would lead to an unbalanced content. Making different raids for both sizes would be a waste of ressources.
not harder content.
larger hurdles to get in.
this wont make content one whit harder.
but it will reduce the amount of people doing them.
Those things are Bad.
making it lol content would be bad, but making it require 20 people is also bad.
case and point mythic is now 50 people to be truly epic, most peoples computers cant handle that let alone the server but thats the the same thing for 25 as for 10 to 20 so please get it Through your skull It Is A Bad Idea.
Last edited by goblinpaladin; 2013-11-12 at 10:49 AM.
I was explicitly answering to that, if you read the underlined part you'll understand my post and why it was referring to making it harder / easier to get into.They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall.
I was a guild leader during TBC, and let me tell ya, Karazhan made the conversion from 40 to 25 very difficult. Servers completely transformed.
Our guild struggled because no matter how I shuffled up players, there was an A-Team instantly. Was a lot of drama. We survived well, but so many other guilds didn't.
I don't think this will be too tough. Healthy guilds with good leadership will survive. Cliques will die. That's going to be healthy for the game
Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?
Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.
I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.
bitching about it will change nothing, just accept the changes and move on.
10man can still do normal raids, if they want to do hc content, they will have to merge or recruit
25man guilds will have to rotate or downsize
Nice, i cant freaking wait
I'm not sure if someone mentioned this before, but forcing 20 man raids on everyone is mostly going to be hurting non-English speaking guilds.
Over half the 10 man raiding guilds on my server are non-English speaking guilds. We've got a Finnish guild, a Polish guild, a Spanish guild, a Swedish guild, a Turkish guild and so on. I'm pretty sure this is the number one reason 10 man raiding is so exceptionally popular in Europe. Most people are just much more comfortable communicating in their own language.
It's already pretty damn hard just to find 15 people speaking your language who can share your raiding schedule, are on your skill level, are playing the role you need and just happen to be looking for a guild. Needing to do this for the 25+ people required to run a successful 20 man raiding guild is going to be an absolute nightmare.
In short, I think forcing 20 man raids on everyone will have significant changes for the worse for the European raiding scene. It will be forcing a lot (and I mean a whole fucking lot) of people out of the raiding game, simply due to language barriers.
Last edited by Akylios; 2013-11-16 at 12:38 PM.
If you think that's crazy then you're pretty blinkered.
If you take the HC raiding population as the only people to be affected by this then 10's are by far the majority. What service provider in their right mind screws over the majority of a segment to make the experience more pleasurable for the minority? It beggars belief.
I just can't see how the gains they expect from this outweigh the negatives. Perceived benefits:
- It ends the 10/25 debate. The whole debate is just a smoke screen and excuse to hurl a few derogatory comments at the other size to stroke your own ego.
- It makes tuning easier. Granted. Everyone appreciates someone who makes a product on the cheap "because its easier"
- The much vaunted "unique mechanics". I'm sure that shit will get old quickly. They can do far more with an extra action button than they can with class mechanics. An extra action button lets the raid choose who they feel would be most suited for a task rather than "oh the priest has to do it"
On top of this, whats the maximum gain they can get from this? Do they think people that have been away from the game for years will flock back to it in droves because 10 man heroics are no longer on the table? They're fucking nuts if they think that will happen.
Anyway, its a circular debate. I can't wait for all the intelligent "lol recruit iz eezy" and "10 man isn't raiding anyway" rebuttals.
Can't wait for Mythic raids.
-I don't think there will be any significant influx in recruitment from 25 man raiders that got cut moving to 20 man. Almost all of the need to reduce roster size for 25 mans will be absorbed by natural roster churn. A LOT of people quit every expansion.
-The number of raiding guilds drops significantly with each expansion. In the US in T13, there were 1282 25 man guilds with at least one heroic kill and 17,012 10 man guilds. In the first tier of Cata (as of today), there are only 603 25 man heroic guilds and 5669 heroic 10 man guilds. That means there was a 53% decrease in the amount of 25H raiding guilds and a staggering 67% decrease in the amount of 10H raiding guilds in the transition from Cata to MoP.
-If we assume the numbers from T14 (which are lower than the numbers in T16 so far but more guilds will hit heroics by the end of the expansion) and the same rate of decay from MoP to WoD, we would be left with a baseline of 283 25 man guilds and 1871 10 man guilds. Assuming that the surviving 25 man guilds just go 20 man with their existing roster churn, we would be left with 936 20 man guilds that emerged from the removal of 10H raiding and 283 20 man guilds that were former 25 man guilds.
The reality is that it's likely more like 85% of current 10H man guilds will cease to exist by the first tier in WoD.
Personally, I like the idea of 20 man raiding. Because seeing the amount of Heroic 10 Man Guilds right now, compared to myself in a 25 man guild having downed 5/14HM so far, the difficulty is definitely much harder to play. More communication than 10 man guilds. No wonder 10 mans dominate more heroics than 25 man guilds. On ya, Blizz.