So with Mythic being 20m only... No pick and choose heroic bosses?

[Thunderball]

I bet you're wrong and that 20 is the number.... Why? because they want MORE people to raid not less. In cutting from 25 to 15 they risk sitting/displacing ten people while in making it 20 they are asking for more people to get involved. Given they are trying to address the lack of social interaction in game it would seem having all those little ten man guilds are being forced to make nice with more people in hopes of growing the community.

People hoping they reduce it to 15 is like are like those who were clinging to the Dark Below rumors...

But there arent any people who wanted to raid and cant. It's ridiculously easy to start raiding now. And there is no point in making challenging content if your players are so lazy that they cant even recruit more people. The years of casualization in raiding have neutered any playerbase that had a passion to raiding and wanted to become better. Competitive raiding is dying because of it, and it's the thing that moved people into raiding. If there are no top guilds there is no raiding. So Blizzard HAVE to challenge the remaining hardcores to make this game last longer. Some of them wont like it and quit, and some will become those people who people look up to when they suddenly want to raid something else other than LFR.

[Outofmana]

I love the guys like you who barely killed any boss in heroic yet would spit on Paragon for playing in a braindead raid size.

You think I didn't raid top10 in the past? Love the failed armory policing. Yes, 10man is super boring to me as a healer, who the hell are you to tell me I'm 'wrong'.

[Deleted]

There's 100 times as many people doing random heroics, what the hell is your point.

and that relates to raiding in exactly no way whatsoever.

You think I didn't raid top10 in the past? Love the failed armory policing. Yes, 10man is super boring to me as a healer, who the hell are you to tell me I'm 'wrong'.

math tells you you are wrong, or more specifically it says that your point of view is less valuable given that 1/4 as many people, presumably, agree with you, more if you factor in non HC raiders.

[shaak]

My opinion overall on Mythic mode, I think it will be a way for blizzard to bring back BC difficulty raiding with less people complaining about heroic modes being too hard, and calling for nerfs. If they had just increased difficulty without changing the name of it, people would go into "heroic modes" thinking they'd be the same difficulty, but by moving heroic mode down to normal mode difficulty, and introducing a new difficulty level called "Mythic", less people will whine about not being able to do it.

I welcome 20 man raiding, and I'm extremely excited to see what they can do without the restrictions for having to cater to both the 10 man and 25 man raid sizes. They will be able to be much more creative with their content. Good call Blizz!

I think the OP's post is trying to get at how the boss lockouts work and if we can skip bosses. (AKA, kill immersius, skip protectors H and kill it on normal, H norushen...bad example but you get it.)

I'd love to know this as well, since it would mean you HAVE to do X boss if it's significantly harder than Y boss as long as it comes before it.
(I tweeted GC about it, maybe we'll get a response)

They said it will be a seperate lockout, you turn mythic mode on before you enter the instance. So no you won't be able to skip boss (a) and do it on heroic mode, and do boss (b) on mythic mode.

I don't think that the 25 man people are understanding here. There are way way more 10 man heroic guilds (and players)

Wow Progress
10 Mans with at least 3 heroic kills: 18,957
25 Mans with At least 1 heroic kill: 4,692

So 25 mans all have to drop 5 people - That means there are 23,460 players looking for new guilds.
All ten mans would need to recruit 10 people - That means they need 379,140

So you don't need to do math to see the disparity of players. Essentially this means that blizzard is killing off ten man heroic guilds; they are not going to be able to adapt to this change.

If it was 15 man on the other hand the number work out better to even out the players in the existing scene... 15 is really the BEST option for maintaining guilds/friendships which is really why the "heroic" 10 man guild exists for.

I wonder where all those people who get dropped from 25 man guilds will go? Oh wait, they can all head to the 10 man guilds who will be looking for players.
And even if a 10 man guild can't find enough players to build a 20 man roster, merge with another guild. If this problem is going to be as prevalent as you seem to think it will be, many 10 man guilds will have the same problem. Find one that is recruiting, talk to the GM/recruitment officer, see if you can work something out.

Stop whining about having to recruit more people, the same complaints happened when we went from 40 mans down to 25 mans, and now it feels completely normal. The sky isn't falling. I repeat, the sky isn't falling.

[Deleted]

Why didn't they just make it 50 man? 25 is almost a 5 man dungeon group and everyone that doesn't like 50 should play Pacman instead because you are clearly not social enough for an MMO. Also that way 25 mans can just merge into 50 man guilds. Or if you start recruiting now you'll have a team ready for the expansion.

After all, getting more players is probably easier than dropping a few of your BFFs.

[weakdots]

Why didn't they just make it 50 man? 25 is almost a 5 man dungeon group and everyone that doesn't like 50 should play Pacman instead because you are clearly not social enough for an MMO. Also that way 25 mans can just merge into 50 man guilds. Or if you start recruiting now you'll have a team ready for the expansion.

After all, getting more players is probably easier than dropping a few of your BFFs.

post of the year. 25mans are all but dead, 10mans are where its at. (paragon 600+ attempts on garrosh, whose playing on the easy mode now?) 15 is the magic number, not 20.

watching a stream of a heroic 25man get first kill on paragons the other night. 3 people die>brez, 5 more people die no one bats an eyelash and go on to kill the boss 10s under enrage. 10man 1 person dies>wipe it up.

[stomination]

Says the 25man Raider -_-

Switching from 10man to 20man is nearly impossible... you either have to recruit 10-12 people which is insane... we were looking for a Shadowpriest basically whole of MOP and didnt find one. Or you fuse with another 10man with a equal Worldranking which is difficult because you first have to find such a guild and 99% of these fusion guilds break up after a short time.

Of course for the 100 remaining 25man HC Raids its nice... just dont open recruitment before the xpac and at the end of the content you always loose a few member so you automatically go down to a good number. Elitist Guilds just have to kick their 5 worst players or have more people on the bench.

15man is ok for both sizes... 10man Raids have to recruit 3-5 people depending on roster, 25man Raids can either split to 2 raids or bench a few more players too (who will probably look for new guilds and fill the rosters of former 10man raids).

WHY DOES BLIZZARD WANT TO DESTROY 10MAN RAIDING? Its the only good thing Cataclysm brought and without the option of 10man Raids the Raiding Community would simply be dead.

25 man guilds would not want to split thier groups into different raids. You take ur strongest into the real raid. Plus that 2nd raid is just another guild inside of your guild who could end up leaving and "poaching" your people as they go.

either way 10 man will have to recruit while 25 man will have to cut ties with ppl and then hope the ppl they kept are sticking around or the better player

[shaak]

Why didn't they just make it 50 man? 25 is almost a 5 man dungeon group and everyone that doesn't like 50 should play Pacman instead because you are clearly not social enough for an MMO. Also that way 25 mans can just merge into 50 man guilds. Or if you start recruiting now you'll have a team ready for the expansion.

After all, getting more players is probably easier than dropping a few of your BFFs.

They've said before they would like to do increased raid size, but they're very limited by processing power. Think about large fights in AV or IoC, there's always 4-5 second lag in those, and thats with everyone spread out, imagine they were all stacked up. Your comment makes no sense as a 50 man raid size would benefit nobody, whereas 20 man is just easier for everybody. Yes it may be slightly harder for current 10 man raiders to find an extra 10 people, or another 10 man guild with similar issues to merge with in order to raid, but you have well over a year to recruit people. Like I said previously, there will probably be many other 10 man guilds having the same issues you have about finding recruits so it will be easy to find people over the next year.

[Deleted]

My opinion overall on Mythic mode, I think it will be a way for blizzard to bring back BC difficulty raiding with less people complaining about heroic modes being too hard, and calling for nerfs. If they had just increased difficulty without changing the name of it, people would go into "heroic modes" thinking they'd be the same difficulty, but by moving heroic mode down to normal mode difficulty, and introducing a new difficulty level called "Mythic", less people will whine about not being able to do it.

for the umpteenth time, its a name change, IT WONT BE ANY HARDER WHATSOEVER!.

The sky isn't falling. I repeat, the sky isn't falling.

going up is harder than going down, 5 people leave a 25 man guild basically every patch, doubling your roster is not remotely comparable.
you cant recruit people now, as what are they supposed to do for 6-8 months?
and may i remind you all the previous times, guilds have went smaller, never larger, and more important than anything, last time they made a change of this nature, wow lost 4-5 million subs, what amount of them was related i don't know but suffice to say its a non zero number.

[shaak]

post of the year. 25mans are all but dead, 10mans are where its at. (paragon 600+ attempts on garrosh, whose playing on the easy mode now?) 15 is the magic number, not 20.

watching a stream of a heroic 25man get first kill on paragons the other night. 3 people die>brez, 5 more people die no one bats an eyelash and go on to kill the boss 10s under enrage. 10man 1 person dies>wipe it up.

Paragon has previously said the main reason 10 man is harder is because they are so far behind 25 man guilds in terms of item level. If you compare their ilvl on their first kill of Garrosh to Method's first kill, it's practically the same with only one item level difference. (Method at 566.65 and Paragon 565.65)

Blizzard also said at a panel they want to be able to put class specific stuff into encounters, where they couldn't do that now because 10 man guilds might not have that class. For example they might want to have a fight where push-back is required for something, they can't do that now because it's a good possibility many 10 man guilds don't have a push-back in their roster.

I know it will get some getting used to, but after the first couple months of raiding at 20 man size you will never look back.

- - - Updated - - -

for the umpteenth time, its a name change, IT WONT BE ANY HARDER WHATSOEVER!.



going up is harder than going down, 5 people leave a 25 man guild basically every patch, doubling your roster is not remotely comparable.
you cant recruit people now, as what are they supposed to do for 6-8 months?
and may i remind you all the previous times, guilds have went smaller, never larger, and more important than anything, last time they made a change of this nature, wow lost 4-5 million subs, what amount of them was related i don't know but suffice to say its a non zero number.

It was just a theory of mine, I think it'd be awesome if they did bring back that difficulty of raiding.

And like I said, if all 10 man guilds are having trouble recruiting it will be easy to find a similar progression guild and merge with them. If 10 man guilds are as hardcore as all 10 man raiders seem to think, this shouldn't be an issue for them as this is a regular occurrence for 25 man guilds.

Wow has been steadily declining in subscribers since the end of Wotlk, going from Wrath to Cata was their biggest decline in subscribers, they did not make "a change of this nature" so I have no idea what you're talking about with that. People have just found other games they enjoy playing, for example League of Legends, the "most played game in the world" according to a 2012 Forbes, which was released in the end of 2009, incidentally a year before Wow's subscriber count started dropping. Don't go and start blaming Wow's subscriber drop on changing raid sizes, because while there may have been some people leave Wow because of it, there is no evidence to back this claim up.

[Deleted]

And like I said, if all 10 man guilds are having trouble recruiting it will be easy to find a similar progression guild and merge with them. If 10 man guilds are as hardcore as all 10 man raiders seem to think, this shouldn't be an issue for them as this is a regular occurrence for 25 man guilds.

Wow has been steadily declining in subscribers since the end of Wotlk, going from Wrath to Cata was their biggest decline in subscribers, they did not make "a change of this nature" Don't go and start blaming Wow's subscriber drop on changing raid sizes, because while there may have been some people leave Wow because of it, there is no evidence to back this claim up.

25 man guilds regularly merge with who?, other 25 man guilds?
besides 10 =/= 25 most 10´s have their own clique and lacks the support to handle 20 people, it is a big deal.

At the end of Wotlk they made it so 10 and 25 had the same loot.
it is widely agreed by anyone who was there that, it was what killed a majority of 25 man guilds, i can dig up blue posts agreeing with me if you like. i can also find blues agreeing with the statement that it drove people away in Cata.

[shaak]

25 man guilds regularly merge with who?, other 25 man guilds?
besides 10 =/= 25 most 10´s have their own clique and lacks the support to handle 20 people, it is a big deal.

At the end of Wotlk they made it so 10 and 25 had the same loot.
it is widely agreed by anyone who was there that, it was what killed a majority of 25 man guilds, i can dig up blue posts agreeing with me if you like. i can also find blues agreeing with the statement that it drove people away in Cata.

Yes, other 25 man guilds, take Exorsus for example. If 10 man guilds aren't prepared to give up their "cliques" to remain in the competitive raiding scene, there's always the option of staying at the new heroic level (equal to current normal level) since you will be able to have any raid size you want from 10-25, while the hardcore guilds can move onto Mythic.

Feel free to find this post, I'd be surprised if it's true.

[Deleted]

Yes, other 25 man guilds, take Exorsus for example. If 10 man guilds aren't prepared to give up their "cliques" to remain in the competitive raiding scene, there's always the option of staying at the new heroic level (equal to current normal level) since you will be able to have any raid size you want from 10-25, while the hardcore guilds can move onto Mythic.

Feel free to find this post, I'd be surprised if it's true.

i cleared normal Garrosh in the fourth reset, i don't wan to raid 20 man, what content am i supposed to do, farm normals for 5 months?

We heard from A LOT of players in Cataclysm that they didn't have enough to do and got bored. It's a tough sweet spot to hit.
25´s disappeared raiding took a hit and people left. satisfied or do you want me to dig up the one about raiding declining too?

[shaak]

i cleared normal Garrosh in the fourth reset, i don't wan to raid 20 man, what content am i supposed to do, farm normals for 5 months?

We heard from A LOT of players in Cataclysm that they didn't have enough to do and got bored. It's a tough sweet spot to hit.
25´s disappeared raiding took a hit and people left. satisfied or do you want me to dig up the one about raiding declining too?

I'd prefer the source

[Aleksej89]

Personally i love the new raid system, some sacrifices will be made but we finally have gotten a system that CAN work with a bit of polish.

Currently (and in the previous few expansions) the entire raid scene between 10 and 25 man guilds has been a chaotic disgrace...

[DarkTZeratul]

20 people means they can design raids with the assumption that you will have at least one of every class. That's considerably less likely with only 15.

[Spotnick]

And you think they will have enough for the 20 man mystic? Either way those guilds will most likely stilled be screwed.

Oh for sure they will, that's not even a question.. probably 75% of all the 10 man heroic guilds will disband in the next 8 months.

That is a given. Smart people will prepare and act now, and there will be a huge pool of players available to form new guilds and recruit.

Plus I am sure you'll have returning players who gave up because 25 man was dying.