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  1. #241
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wouldn't it be awesome if they made a Mythic fight where you actually need to use such a thing?
    No, it wouldn't.
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  2. #242
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    No, it wouldn't.
    Your opinion on boss fights would seem to hold little weight on the matter since you've already said multiple times you dont pve.

    And it would be interesting, but I dont know that Id enjoy doing it myself.
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  3. #243
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    Your opinion on boss fights would seem to hold little weight on the matter since you've already said multiple times you dont pve.

    And it would be interesting, but I dont know that Id enjoy doing it myself.
    I don't, but I did.
    I don't need to have multiple kills of Garrderp HC 25 to give my opinion some weight am I.

    Half-dps/half-heal spe is godawful idea.
    That's the bottom line.
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  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    3)Balance Druids. Through Heart of the Wild->Tranq+Rej spam I've seen balance druids do insane healing numbers.While at a small cost for the duration this proves invaluable at encounters like Lei Shen HC 25 allowing you to drop a healer and still survive the last phase. Not only does the Balance Druid not lose much(lets say he does 95% of his dps instead of the full 100%), he allows 1 full extra dps to join in place of the healer.
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-12-02 at 08:48 PM.

  5. #245
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    why, that's a nice idea infact!

    Too bad this Seal of Faith just doesnt belong in tier100 though.
    I would suggest they make a Seal-related tier, with Seal of Purity, Seal of Faith and Seal of Something Else so we could pick a proper seal depending on the situation at hand.
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    That's just a weaker Heart of the Wild 2.0 (much weaker since Rets don't actually have tranq to pop+holy paladins don't have any damage outside of holy shock+denounce(no dots/aoe)) that lasts 20 seconds. Extra pat on the back for also being 1 expansion behind druids.

    The current version of the talent is even worse, as its effectively an option Disc+Mistweavers get for free that you need to pay a lvl 100 talent for and that will be worse .

    The problem remains however that the current plan which is
    Celestalon ‏
    Seal of Faith intended to turn you into a half and half role. Tank/Heal for Prot, DPS/Heal for Ret, Heal/DPS for Holy.
    just doesn't work in Mythic - where it matters. And this brings back my previous post, you wouldn't use Disc Priests if they did half of another healer's hps and you wouldn't use Prot Paladins if they took double the damage/did half the dps. The bonuses(extra dps from the disc and extra healing from the Prot) came for free and the class itself excelled at its role and was more like 125% at it(+35% at the "bonus").
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-12-02 at 10:28 PM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    just doesn't work in Mythic - where it matters. And this brings back my previous post, you wouldn't use Disc Priests if they did half of another healer's hps and you wouldn't use Prot Paladins if they took double the damage/did half the dps. The bonuses(extra dps from the disc and extra healing from the Prot) came for free and the class itself excelled at its role and was more like 125% at it(+35% at the "bonus").
    Back when Judgment of Light healed the raid and Judgment of Wisdom gave free mana, it really didn't escalate out of hand until it started scaling, at which point Ret/Prot also topped heal charts while giving the raid infinite mana (which Warlocks already had in BC, and SPriests could do but only to a group). Of course, this was back in 3.0, but it goes to further prove your point. I didn't really raid much this expac, but from what I had read I thought Atonement got gutted after Cata, and didn't know at all about the Balance Druid thing. Thanks for the info.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    Back when Judgment of Light healed the raid and Judgment of Wisdom gave free mana, it really didn't escalate out of hand until it started scaling, at which point Ret/Prot also topped heal charts while giving the raid infinite mana (which Warlocks already had in BC, and SPriests could do but only to a group). Of course, this was back in 3.0, but it goes to further prove your point. I didn't really raid much this expac, but from what I had read I thought Atonement got gutted after Cata, and didn't know at all about the Balance Druid thing. Thanks for the info.
    No atonement became good in MoP. Atonement wasn't even good in cata except the first tier when it was abused on Heroic Halfus until it was nerfed.

  9. #249
    /cast necro

    What do you guys think about the blue tweets about seal of faith?

    >Hiya! Quick Question, so you have fistweaving, and atonement. Any plans for a paladin (seems a natch) or druid version in WoD?
    >>Druids already have it in Dream of Cenarius. Seal of Faith is doing that for Paladins, though in a different way. (Source)

    >Seal of Faith=terrible talent, scrap it
    >>I suppose that's better feedback than none at all, but reasoning and thoughts would be even better. (Source)

    >Unless you give holy a reliable baseline dps HP generator. /4
    >>Assume you have access to all of the spec's builders/finishers that you want. (Source)

    >Holy does not have a reliable dps builder.We have to spec SH for Judgment to grant HP&crusader strike is not reliable
    >>How is Crusader Strike not reliable? (Source)

    >We don't have melee mechanics immunity for one.
    >>OK, what if you did, with Seal of Faith? (Source)

    >I'd spec the talent to gain said immunity and use Insight anyway.
    >>I sincerely doubt that you'd give up your other lvl 100 talents for that. Could make it only work while active. (Source)

    >Can seal swap dance if required on dangerous mechanic. Besides lvl 100 talents for H Pala = bad/situational
    >>Let's try to back up a step. Don't get stuck in 'how' nitpicking. Feedback on the general intent of the talent? (Source)

    >The biggest issue is that, as a paladin, DPS-based healing doesn't feeling natural.
    >>How so? It'd be new functionality that you're not used to, but that could be said for anything. (Source)

    >Talenting into Stance Dancing just sounds horrible period in both feel and power.
    >>The intent is no dancing. It's a committed thing. (Source)

    >You can't really expect a healer not to dance, too many variables in a fight
    >>You can expect them not to dance if they aren't able to. (Source)

  10. #250
    The Lightbringer Manabomb's Avatar
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    With those new tweets, honestly looks like the blues are completely idiotic, or are looking to completely gut dps-healing specs (Disc, fistweaving) to bring them in line with the druid and paladin talented versions.

    Either way, does not bode well for the healing community in general.
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  11. #251
    It's increased flexibility for raid comps in a sense, and even on Mythic that might work better for some groups in WoD since they can now build and tune things while only having to worry about 20 players instead of 10 or 25. We'll have to see how the numbers play out with more true hybrid DPS/heal options.

    Although I expect they'll run into some issues with prot if SoF significantly changes its ability to tank either positively or negatively. A lot of tanks would likely jump at the chance to do 30% less damage but also effectively take 30% less damage too since it can be healed up.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-12-23 at 04:08 AM.
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  12. #252
    I can't believe that they're still considering implementing Seal of Faith.
    This doesn't bode well for healer changes...I have a feeling that we will continue to see the Wrath of the Disc priest (WoDp)

  13. #253
    I think it's nice other healers at least have the option to do dps and healing at the same time. I have no problem with them adding that functionality to more healers.

    The only problem I have is that disc priests absolutely destroy everyone else at doing it which shouldn't be the case. I mean you'd think monks most of all would be able to do more dps and healing through dps than disc can. It's kinda ridiculous. The mana efficiency and pure healing throughput is nuts for atonement and needs to be heavily nerfed to be brought in line with say, dream of cenarius. Or all the other healers' versions of atonement should be brought up to disc priest levels of healing and efficiency.
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  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I can't believe that they're still considering implementing Seal of Faith. This doesn't bode well for healer changes...I have a feeling that we will continue to see the Wrath of the Disc priest (WoDp)
    The tweets that were on the front page posted by Masterik were actually from weeks, if not over a month, ago. It's unlikely many of the 100 talents will make it unscathed from the Blizzcon presentation, which should not be a surprise whatsoever.

    I don't expect Cata to MOP level changes to class talents, abilities, and whatever, but there's NO way it will just be left as is. Even from MOP Beta, 3 months before launch, to MOP launch IIRC there were many changes.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    With those new tweets, honestly looks like the blues are completely idiotic, or are looking to completely gut dps-healing specs (Disc, fistweaving) to bring them in line with the druid and paladin talented versions.

    Either way, does not bode well for the healing community in general.
    Actually, I find it completely reasonable.

    Its unreasonable that today the highest hps healer(a disc priest) is also doing some additional damage via Attonement at no cost whatsoever. If there was a decent price to pay( for example if your healing+ your damage would equal another healer's healing) it would be far better.

    Regarding Seal of Faith. Afaik the talent version from Blizzcon is dead long ago.

  16. #256
    I actually think that the druid version is the best version of how healers should dps. Short term burst dps cooldowns where a healer can contribute significantly. I think the disc priest model is the less desirable model personally. I'd rather jump in an contribute dps on key phases than spam a dps spell for half the fight whilst it mindless smart heals.

    Maybe I'm alone in that thinking but as far as I'm concerned resto druid dps mechanics > disc priest / mistweaver dps mechanics.

  17. #257
    I'm somewhat in agreement with you there Pasture. Spamming a damage spell that smart heals doesn't seem like really fun gameplay once the novelty of being a hybrid wears off. It's not very skillful either.

    However, I wouldn't say that relegating DPS+heal to cooldowns is the best way to go overall. Sure it's nice for those times when you need a big burst of healing, but what about steady heals? I'd personally like something more interactive, and SoF has the potential for that since there's some choice in how to go about balancing DPS and healing.

    Speaking of cooldowns though, I just put 2 and 2 together with some comments Blizz made... One of the reps said they'd like to cut down on cooldowns, and especially on those CDs that just add more damage (and presumably healing) without doing something interesting otherwise. Given that, and the tweet that holy might just have Divine Favor, Prot has GoAK, and Ret would have AW, I'm inclined to believe our 75 tier will be mostly redone. At the moment only Ret gets anything interesting baseline with AW (HoW being usable), so if they stay true to the notion of making CDs interesting then either they'll have to tweak AW to do something interesting for Holy and Prot or they'll just make AW Ret-only and thus SW cannot be a talent unless it's changed to affect the main CDs for each spec instead of just AW.

    Along those lines perhaps Divine Favor will be changed as well since it still is just bigger numbers.
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  18. #258
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Im not sure how good it'll be for holy but Seal of Faith sucks for ret. I've already set my eyes on Final Verdict but id also like some alternatives.

  19. #259
    Keep in mind they are trying to make it be half DPS and half healing for Ret, so of course they have to take its DPS down. -30% from SoF and maybe -5-10% from not having SoT up, and then -10-15% at least from using heals instead of DPS abilities at times. If you're going into it with the mindset of a DPS then the talent probably isn't for you.
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Along those lines perhaps Divine Favor will be changed as well since it still is just bigger numbers.
    If I had to rank our cooldowns in interest.

    HA > Favour > Guardian > AW.

    HA is the basis of how all cooldowns should be. It actually alters how you play while offering a numbers boost. It's just better.

    I actually like Favour because haste + crit still feels different to play even though it's really just numbers.

    Guardian and AW could both go. They're just number boosts.

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