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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    ^ Blizzard hasn't been kind to half dps/heal specs. S Priest, Ret, Bal Druid, Ele Shaman all had their offheal options severely limited in this expac. If they want to balance around it, then why bother with a .5 dpser when you can just manmode the healers and burn through faster with a full dps? This game doesn't really support....uh...support classes.
    did you figure it out all by yourself?
    Sure as sure

  2. #242
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.
    Wouldn't it be awesome if they made a Mythic fight where you actually need to use such a thing?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Try to boil everything down to a negative catch phrase all you want. We're still going to spend countless hours making Warlords of Draenor the most epic expansion possible.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    ^ Blizzard hasn't been kind to half dps/heal specs. S Priest, Ret, Bal Druid, Ele Shaman all had their offheal options severely limited in this expac. If they want to balance around it, then why bother with a .5 dpser when you can just manmode the healers and burn through faster with a full dps? This game doesn't really support....uh...support classes.
    The core problem with the Seal of Faith talent is that the entire design of 50% dps /50% healing is that such a spec is 100% useless for mythic raiding.

    Classes that have been successful while doing multiple roles at once were usually excelling at their primary role and the secondary contribution came at close to no cost and massive raid benefit. Some classes of that sort this expansion:

    1)Disc Priest. Disc priests are by far the best healers number wise and also provide some damage. The class is more like 125% healing / 35% dps. If the class would do half of what it does right now in healing, none would use it.

    2)Prot Paladins. Prot paladins were one of the best tanks of MoP. In some encounters, like Wind Lord Mel'jarak a prot paladin was doing significantly more dps then the highest dpser, more healing then the highest healer while taking the least damage of all the tanks. When we were doing the unkilled version of Twins HC in the first week in T15, our prot paladin was doing 100k hps without any sacrifice whatsoever. If prot paladins took double the damage of other tank classes to compensate or did far less dps then them...

    3)Balance Druids. Through Heart of the Wild->Tranq+Rej spam I've seen balance druids do insane healing numbers.While at a small cost for the duration this proves invaluable at encounters like Lei Shen HC 25 allowing you to drop a healer and still survive the last phase. Not only does the Balance Druid not lose much(lets say he does 95% of his dps instead of the full 100%), he allows 1 full extra dps to join in place of the healer.

    Right now the talent would have a purpose if there is massive downtime before raid damge, you switch to Seal of Faith, do some dps and then you use something like Light's Hammer and switch back to Insight. The problem is Disc does all this much better and even with the empowerment Light's Hammer would still be outhealed by Healing Rain. Plus it comes with the awesomeness of Seal Switching=2 gcds of doing nothing.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wouldn't it be awesome if they made a Mythic fight where you actually need to use such a thing?
    No, it wouldn't.
    Sure as sure

  5. #245
    Brewmaster Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    No, it wouldn't.
    Your opinion on boss fights would seem to hold little weight on the matter since you've already said multiple times you dont pve.

    And it would be interesting, but I dont know that Id enjoy doing it myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    Your opinion on boss fights would seem to hold little weight on the matter since you've already said multiple times you dont pve.

    And it would be interesting, but I dont know that Id enjoy doing it myself.
    I don't, but I did.
    I don't need to have multiple kills of Garrderp HC 25 to give my opinion some weight am I.

    Half-dps/half-heal spe is godawful idea.
    That's the bottom line.
    Sure as sure

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    3)Balance Druids. Through Heart of the Wild->Tranq+Rej spam I've seen balance druids do insane healing numbers.While at a small cost for the duration this proves invaluable at encounters like Lei Shen HC 25 allowing you to drop a healer and still survive the last phase. Not only does the Balance Druid not lose much(lets say he does 95% of his dps instead of the full 100%), he allows 1 full extra dps to join in place of the healer.
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-12-02 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    why, that's a nice idea infact!

    Too bad this Seal of Faith just doesnt belong in tier100 though.
    I would suggest they make a Seal-related tier, with Seal of Purity, Seal of Faith and Seal of Something Else so we could pick a proper seal depending on the situation at hand.
    Sure as sure

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This is surely the best model. Anything else just feels OP, hence prot paladins getting a nerf, atonement getting a nerf etc.

    The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.

    They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
    That's just a weaker Heart of the Wild 2.0 (much weaker since Rets don't actually have tranq to pop+holy paladins don't have any damage outside of holy shock+denounce(no dots/aoe)) that lasts 20 seconds. Extra pat on the back for also being 1 expansion behind druids.

    The current version of the talent is even worse, as its effectively an option Disc+Mistweavers get for free that you need to pay a lvl 100 talent for and that will be worse .

    The problem remains however that the current plan which is
    Celestalon ‏
    Seal of Faith intended to turn you into a half and half role. Tank/Heal for Prot, DPS/Heal for Ret, Heal/DPS for Holy.
    just doesn't work in Mythic - where it matters. And this brings back my previous post, you wouldn't use Disc Priests if they did half of another healer's hps and you wouldn't use Prot Paladins if they took double the damage/did half the dps. The bonuses(extra dps from the disc and extra healing from the Prot) came for free and the class itself excelled at its role and was more like 125% at it(+35% at the "bonus").
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-12-02 at 10:28 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    just doesn't work in Mythic - where it matters. And this brings back my previous post, you wouldn't use Disc Priests if they did half of another healer's hps and you wouldn't use Prot Paladins if they took double the damage/did half the dps. The bonuses(extra dps from the disc and extra healing from the Prot) came for free and the class itself excelled at its role and was more like 125% at it(+35% at the "bonus").
    Back when Judgment of Light healed the raid and Judgment of Wisdom gave free mana, it really didn't escalate out of hand until it started scaling, at which point Ret/Prot also topped heal charts while giving the raid infinite mana (which Warlocks already had in BC, and SPriests could do but only to a group). Of course, this was back in 3.0, but it goes to further prove your point. I didn't really raid much this expac, but from what I had read I thought Atonement got gutted after Cata, and didn't know at all about the Balance Druid thing. Thanks for the info.

  11. #251
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    Back when Judgment of Light healed the raid and Judgment of Wisdom gave free mana, it really didn't escalate out of hand until it started scaling, at which point Ret/Prot also topped heal charts while giving the raid infinite mana (which Warlocks already had in BC, and SPriests could do but only to a group). Of course, this was back in 3.0, but it goes to further prove your point. I didn't really raid much this expac, but from what I had read I thought Atonement got gutted after Cata, and didn't know at all about the Balance Druid thing. Thanks for the info.
    No atonement became good in MoP. Atonement wasn't even good in cata except the first tier when it was abused on Heroic Halfus until it was nerfed.

  12. #252
    /cast necro

    What do you guys think about the blue tweets about seal of faith?

    >Hiya! Quick Question, so you have fistweaving, and atonement. Any plans for a paladin (seems a natch) or druid version in WoD?
    >>Druids already have it in Dream of Cenarius. Seal of Faith is doing that for Paladins, though in a different way. (Source)

    >Seal of Faith=terrible talent, scrap it
    >>I suppose that's better feedback than none at all, but reasoning and thoughts would be even better. (Source)

    >Unless you give holy a reliable baseline dps HP generator. /4
    >>Assume you have access to all of the spec's builders/finishers that you want. (Source)

    >Holy does not have a reliable dps builder.We have to spec SH for Judgment to grant HP&crusader strike is not reliable
    >>How is Crusader Strike not reliable? (Source)

    >We don't have melee mechanics immunity for one.
    >>OK, what if you did, with Seal of Faith? (Source)

    >I'd spec the talent to gain said immunity and use Insight anyway.
    >>I sincerely doubt that you'd give up your other lvl 100 talents for that. Could make it only work while active. (Source)

    >Can seal swap dance if required on dangerous mechanic. Besides lvl 100 talents for H Pala = bad/situational
    >>Let's try to back up a step. Don't get stuck in 'how' nitpicking. Feedback on the general intent of the talent? (Source)

    >The biggest issue is that, as a paladin, DPS-based healing doesn't feeling natural.
    >>How so? It'd be new functionality that you're not used to, but that could be said for anything. (Source)

    >Talenting into Stance Dancing just sounds horrible period in both feel and power.
    >>The intent is no dancing. It's a committed thing. (Source)

    >You can't really expect a healer not to dance, too many variables in a fight
    >>You can expect them not to dance if they aren't able to. (Source)

  13. #253
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    With those new tweets, honestly looks like the blues are completely idiotic, or are looking to completely gut dps-healing specs (Disc, fistweaving) to bring them in line with the druid and paladin talented versions.

    Either way, does not bode well for the healing community in general.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  14. #254
    It's increased flexibility for raid comps in a sense, and even on Mythic that might work better for some groups in WoD since they can now build and tune things while only having to worry about 20 players instead of 10 or 25. We'll have to see how the numbers play out with more true hybrid DPS/heal options.

    Although I expect they'll run into some issues with prot if SoF significantly changes its ability to tank either positively or negatively. A lot of tanks would likely jump at the chance to do 30% less damage but also effectively take 30% less damage too since it can be healed up.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-12-23 at 04:08 AM.
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  15. #255
    I can't believe that they're still considering implementing Seal of Faith.
    This doesn't bode well for healer changes...I have a feeling that we will continue to see the Wrath of the Disc priest (WoDp)

  16. #256
    I think it's nice other healers at least have the option to do dps and healing at the same time. I have no problem with them adding that functionality to more healers.

    The only problem I have is that disc priests absolutely destroy everyone else at doing it which shouldn't be the case. I mean you'd think monks most of all would be able to do more dps and healing through dps than disc can. It's kinda ridiculous. The mana efficiency and pure healing throughput is nuts for atonement and needs to be heavily nerfed to be brought in line with say, dream of cenarius. Or all the other healers' versions of atonement should be brought up to disc priest levels of healing and efficiency.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  17. #257
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I can't believe that they're still considering implementing Seal of Faith. This doesn't bode well for healer changes...I have a feeling that we will continue to see the Wrath of the Disc priest (WoDp)
    The tweets that were on the front page posted by Masterik were actually from weeks, if not over a month, ago. It's unlikely many of the 100 talents will make it unscathed from the Blizzcon presentation, which should not be a surprise whatsoever.

    I don't expect Cata to MOP level changes to class talents, abilities, and whatever, but there's NO way it will just be left as is. Even from MOP Beta, 3 months before launch, to MOP launch IIRC there were many changes.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    With those new tweets, honestly looks like the blues are completely idiotic, or are looking to completely gut dps-healing specs (Disc, fistweaving) to bring them in line with the druid and paladin talented versions.

    Either way, does not bode well for the healing community in general.
    Actually, I find it completely reasonable.

    Its unreasonable that today the highest hps healer(a disc priest) is also doing some additional damage via Attonement at no cost whatsoever. If there was a decent price to pay( for example if your healing+ your damage would equal another healer's healing) it would be far better.

    Regarding Seal of Faith. Afaik the talent version from Blizzcon is dead long ago.

  19. #259
    I actually think that the druid version is the best version of how healers should dps. Short term burst dps cooldowns where a healer can contribute significantly. I think the disc priest model is the less desirable model personally. I'd rather jump in an contribute dps on key phases than spam a dps spell for half the fight whilst it mindless smart heals.

    Maybe I'm alone in that thinking but as far as I'm concerned resto druid dps mechanics > disc priest / mistweaver dps mechanics.

  20. #260
    I'm somewhat in agreement with you there Pasture. Spamming a damage spell that smart heals doesn't seem like really fun gameplay once the novelty of being a hybrid wears off. It's not very skillful either.

    However, I wouldn't say that relegating DPS+heal to cooldowns is the best way to go overall. Sure it's nice for those times when you need a big burst of healing, but what about steady heals? I'd personally like something more interactive, and SoF has the potential for that since there's some choice in how to go about balancing DPS and healing.

    Speaking of cooldowns though, I just put 2 and 2 together with some comments Blizz made... One of the reps said they'd like to cut down on cooldowns, and especially on those CDs that just add more damage (and presumably healing) without doing something interesting otherwise. Given that, and the tweet that holy might just have Divine Favor, Prot has GoAK, and Ret would have AW, I'm inclined to believe our 75 tier will be mostly redone. At the moment only Ret gets anything interesting baseline with AW (HoW being usable), so if they stay true to the notion of making CDs interesting then either they'll have to tweak AW to do something interesting for Holy and Prot or they'll just make AW Ret-only and thus SW cannot be a talent unless it's changed to affect the main CDs for each spec instead of just AW.

    Along those lines perhaps Divine Favor will be changed as well since it still is just bigger numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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