Classes that have been successful while doing multiple roles at once were usually excelling at their primary role and the secondary contribution came at close to no cost and massive raid benefit. Some classes of that sort this expansion:
1)Disc Priest. Disc priests are by far the best healers number wise and also provide some damage. The class is more like 125% healing / 35% dps. If the class would do half of what it does right now in healing, none would use it.
2)Prot Paladins. Prot paladins were one of the best tanks of MoP. In some encounters, like Wind Lord Mel'jarak a prot paladin was doing significantly more dps then the highest dpser, more healing then the highest healer while taking the least damage of all the tanks. When we were doing the unkilled version of Twins HC in the first week in T15, our prot paladin was doing 100k hps without any sacrifice whatsoever. If prot paladins took double the damage of other tank classes to compensate or did far less dps then them...
3)Balance Druids. Through Heart of the Wild->Tranq+Rej spam I've seen balance druids do insane healing numbers.While at a small cost for the duration this proves invaluable at encounters like Lei Shen HC 25 allowing you to drop a healer and still survive the last phase. Not only does the Balance Druid not lose much(lets say he does 95% of his dps instead of the full 100%), he allows 1 full extra dps to join in place of the healer.
Right now the talent would have a purpose if there is massive downtime before raid damge, you switch to Seal of Faith, do some dps and then you use something like Light's Hammer and switch back to Insight. The problem is Disc does all this much better and even with the empowerment Light's Hammer would still be outhealed by Healing Rain. Plus it comes with the awesomeness of Seal Switching=2 gcds of doing nothing.
The seal thing isn't there yet. It would honestly work better as something more like HotW. A special seal you activate and for the next 20 seconds you can do lots of dps as a healer or lots of healing as a dps. Forcing ret to do less damage to bank up some spellpower doesn't make sense because then they're also penalised when they need to heal rather than dps. HotW is definitely the best model for this.
They're talking of giving HR and LoD to ret so they must be somewhat serious about this. They just need to lower the punishment.
Last edited by Pasture; 2013-12-02 at 08:48 PM.
Too bad this Seal of Faith just doesnt belong in tier100 though.
I would suggest they make a Seal-related tier, with Seal of Purity, Seal of Faith and Seal of Something Else so we could pick a proper seal depending on the situation at hand.
The current version of the talent is even worse, as its effectively an option Disc+Mistweavers get for free that you need to pay a lvl 100 talent for and that will be worse .
The problem remains however that the current plan which is
just doesn't work in Mythic - where it matters. And this brings back my previous post, you wouldn't use Disc Priests if they did half of another healer's hps and you wouldn't use Prot Paladins if they took double the damage/did half the dps. The bonuses(extra dps from the disc and extra healing from the Prot) came for free and the class itself excelled at its role and was more like 125% at it(+35% at the "bonus").Celestalon
Seal of Faith intended to turn you into a half and half role. Tank/Heal for Prot, DPS/Heal for Ret, Heal/DPS for Holy.
Last edited by Aladya; 2013-12-02 at 10:28 PM.
What do you guys think about the blue tweets about seal of faith?
>Hiya! Quick Question, so you have fistweaving, and atonement. Any plans for a paladin (seems a natch) or druid version in WoD?
>>Druids already have it in Dream of Cenarius. Seal of Faith is doing that for Paladins, though in a different way. (Source)
>Seal of Faith=terrible talent, scrap it
>>I suppose that's better feedback than none at all, but reasoning and thoughts would be even better. (Source)
>Unless you give holy a reliable baseline dps HP generator. /4
>>Assume you have access to all of the spec's builders/finishers that you want. (Source)
>Holy does not have a reliable dps builder.We have to spec SH for Judgment to grant HP&crusader strike is not reliable
>>How is Crusader Strike not reliable? (Source)
>We don't have melee mechanics immunity for one.
>>OK, what if you did, with Seal of Faith? (Source)
>I'd spec the talent to gain said immunity and use Insight anyway.
>>I sincerely doubt that you'd give up your other lvl 100 talents for that. Could make it only work while active. (Source)
>Can seal swap dance if required on dangerous mechanic. Besides lvl 100 talents for H Pala = bad/situational
>>Let's try to back up a step. Don't get stuck in 'how' nitpicking. Feedback on the general intent of the talent? (Source)
>The biggest issue is that, as a paladin, DPS-based healing doesn't feeling natural.
>>How so? It'd be new functionality that you're not used to, but that could be said for anything. (Source)
>Talenting into Stance Dancing just sounds horrible period in both feel and power.
>>The intent is no dancing. It's a committed thing. (Source)
>You can't really expect a healer not to dance, too many variables in a fight
>>You can expect them not to dance if they aren't able to. (Source)
With those new tweets, honestly looks like the blues are completely idiotic, or are looking to completely gut dps-healing specs (Disc, fistweaving) to bring them in line with the druid and paladin talented versions.
Either way, does not bode well for the healing community in general.
Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.
It's increased flexibility for raid comps in a sense, and even on Mythic that might work better for some groups in WoD since they can now build and tune things while only having to worry about 20 players instead of 10 or 25. We'll have to see how the numbers play out with more true hybrid DPS/heal options.
Although I expect they'll run into some issues with prot if SoF significantly changes its ability to tank either positively or negatively. A lot of tanks would likely jump at the chance to do 30% less damage but also effectively take 30% less damage too since it can be healed up.
Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-12-23 at 04:08 AM.
I can't believe that they're still considering implementing Seal of Faith.
This doesn't bode well for healer changes...I have a feeling that we will continue to see the Wrath of the Disc priest (WoDp)
I think it's nice other healers at least have the option to do dps and healing at the same time. I have no problem with them adding that functionality to more healers.
The only problem I have is that disc priests absolutely destroy everyone else at doing it which shouldn't be the case. I mean you'd think monks most of all would be able to do more dps and healing through dps than disc can. It's kinda ridiculous. The mana efficiency and pure healing throughput is nuts for atonement and needs to be heavily nerfed to be brought in line with say, dream of cenarius. Or all the other healers' versions of atonement should be brought up to disc priest levels of healing and efficiency.
I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.
I don't expect Cata to MOP level changes to class talents, abilities, and whatever, but there's NO way it will just be left as is. Even from MOP Beta, 3 months before launch, to MOP launch IIRC there were many changes.
Its unreasonable that today the highest hps healer(a disc priest) is also doing some additional damage via Attonement at no cost whatsoever. If there was a decent price to pay( for example if your healing+ your damage would equal another healer's healing) it would be far better.
Regarding Seal of Faith. Afaik the talent version from Blizzcon is dead long ago.
I actually think that the druid version is the best version of how healers should dps. Short term burst dps cooldowns where a healer can contribute significantly. I think the disc priest model is the less desirable model personally. I'd rather jump in an contribute dps on key phases than spam a dps spell for half the fight whilst it mindless smart heals.
Maybe I'm alone in that thinking but as far as I'm concerned resto druid dps mechanics > disc priest / mistweaver dps mechanics.
I'm somewhat in agreement with you there Pasture. Spamming a damage spell that smart heals doesn't seem like really fun gameplay once the novelty of being a hybrid wears off. It's not very skillful either.
However, I wouldn't say that relegating DPS+heal to cooldowns is the best way to go overall. Sure it's nice for those times when you need a big burst of healing, but what about steady heals? I'd personally like something more interactive, and SoF has the potential for that since there's some choice in how to go about balancing DPS and healing.
Speaking of cooldowns though, I just put 2 and 2 together with some comments Blizz made... One of the reps said they'd like to cut down on cooldowns, and especially on those CDs that just add more damage (and presumably healing) without doing something interesting otherwise. Given that, and the tweet that holy might just have Divine Favor, Prot has GoAK, and Ret would have AW, I'm inclined to believe our 75 tier will be mostly redone. At the moment only Ret gets anything interesting baseline with AW (HoW being usable), so if they stay true to the notion of making CDs interesting then either they'll have to tweak AW to do something interesting for Holy and Prot or they'll just make AW Ret-only and thus SW cannot be a talent unless it's changed to affect the main CDs for each spec instead of just AW.
Along those lines perhaps Divine Favor will be changed as well since it still is just bigger numbers.