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  1. #221
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I dont think unbreakable spirit is unviable for ret. The first two tears are pretty set though. Long arm + fist is a must for ret. I hope blizzard rebalance those tiers.

  2. #222
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I'd like to see more changes to the other talents. As it is currently, a lot of the Tier's are straight forward for certain specs. The only exception is T75 and T90 where a lot of it is personal choice. Otherwise there's no real choice for the other Tiers, or there doesn't seem to be any good choices at all. I would definitely remove Pursuit of Justice and Hand of Purity. Those two just felt like worthless choices for any spec Paladin.
    I think you are overreacting.
    For extremely competitive raiding there is always a "take this or GTFO"-talent, the importance is how much you 'nerf' yourself by taking something else.

    My prot-paladin will have Eternal Flame and my Holy spec runs around with Selfless Healer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Duke, I'd expect ret to go more for SS since it's an easy to use absorb that actually has full effectiveness on the caster unlike SH. There's no way it's "SH or GTFO" because SS is simply better than SH unless you're trying for hybrid nonsense (which I don't expect even a hundredth of a percent of ret players to even attempt).
    Good luck finding the hole in your rotation to apply it my free Divine Storms take up all the room.
    Originally Posted by Alpha Patch Notes (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
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  3. #223
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    snip
    You should probably stick to speaking about your view on your spec for your play. I have seen plenty of prot paladins run Eternal Flame and plenty of holy paladins run Selfless Healer and do extremely well. Your whole view on the "This or GTFO" talents are either wrong or very much out of date.

  4. #224
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I'd like to see more changes to the other talents. As it is currently, a lot of the Tier's are straight forward for certain specs. The only exception is T75 and T90 where a lot of it is personal choice. Otherwise there's no real choice for the other Tiers, or there doesn't seem to be any good choices at all. I would definitely remove Pursuit of Justice and Hand of Purity. Those two just felt like worthless choices for any spec Paladin.


    Ret
    T15 - Long Are of the Law or GTFO
    T30 - Fist of Justice or GTFO
    T45 - Selfless Healer or GTFO
    T60 - Clemency or GTFO
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice

    you don't get to chose tier 75 and tier 90 as ret either.
    if you want to be competitive, you pick Zealotry and Holy Prism.
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  5. #225
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    you don't get to chose tier 75 and tier 90 as ret either.
    if you want to be competitive, you pick Zealotry and Holy Prism.
    Unless you aren't doing pvp, in which case you'd be awful for taking those talents
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  6. #226
    Immortal Dukenukemx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Your list has more "anything goes" and "taster's choice" than not and regardless seems horribly inaccurate.
    The "anything goes" basically means the choices have little effect on your spec. For example the T15 talents are somewhat useless for Holy in general, because Holy Paladins don't need to move around much. As does T30 cause the choices are pretty irrelevant, with the exception of PvP. As Prot the choices for T30 are extremely irrelevant. Hence Fist of Justice with a question mark.

    The "taster's choice" are T75 and T90, which seem to have a lot more thought put into those talents then any other. Since any spec can make good effective use with any of those talents, depending on the situation. They're still far from perfect, but I do end up switching them around more often.

    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I dont think unbreakable spirit is unviable for ret. The first two tears are pretty set though. Long arm + fist is a must for ret. I hope blizzard rebalance those tiers.
    Unbreakable spirit isn't bad for PvE, but it makes so little difference. Clemency can make a big difference, especially in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Holy is not entirely stuck with EF now that SH lets judgment grant HoPo and EF doesn't benefit from mastery. I would have expected you to know that given how much of a discussion has gone on about it in the Holy thread.
    I haven't been keeping up with Holy, but I guess Holy now has a choice? Or is it that SH is so good that there's no choice again?
    If you would like to refute the math Theck did over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/25/dousing-the-flame/ pretty much proving that EF is better than SS for prot (especially with 4pT16), be our guest.
    I'm not refuting the math but like Eternal Flame for Holy, Sacred Shield was the best choice for some time. And since the nerf, the choices are nearly identical, with EF being the slightly better choice. That's the problem with a lot of the choices, is that when you can use math to prove one choice is better then another then there's really no choice.

    Blizzard developers need to work more on incomparables for talent choices. Anytime you can sit down and compare talents through math then you didn't do a good job with making talents.
    Last edited by Dukenukemx; 2013-11-19 at 08:29 PM.

  7. #227
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    Unless you aren't doing pvp, in which case you'd be awful for taking those talents
    of course I was speaking strictly from PVP perspective.
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  8. #228
    Couple of things:

    1) "Anything goes" is far from a small effect on spec. The Level 15 talents have quite different effects on movement speed which is not a non-trivial thing. The Level 30 talents have different effects in PvP and even perhaps World mob fighting which is an aspect of the game and should be treated as such. Not everything has to revolve around Raid situations.

    2) Unbreakable Spirit is not "unviable" by any means, even in a raid situation it is my "default" talent pick for all 3 specs if you do not need the other talents. 1:40 cooldown on Bubble is nothing to sneeze at.

    3) Unfortunately with a class that has 3 specs for 3 roles, and specs that need to be viable in PvE, PvP, World, and even to a degree soloing capabilities, you're just not going to have all 3 talents be "equally good" for every spec, every role, AND every situation. That's not going to happen and the only way to even try to force it would be to make the talents all equally shitty and useless.

    The fact that 3 talents do 3 different things will intrinsically mean "one talent will be better" in any specific given spec/situation. Get over it.

  9. #229
    Unless they give us different talents for each spec.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Unless they give us different talents for each spec.
    Doesn't matter, the point still holds regardless of that. There's only a point where you can make effectively 3 different talent trees (or squares if you prefer now) one for each spec.

  11. #231
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Unless they give us different talents for each spec.
    But do we want that "druid-feeling"?

    I love my paladin because I have all the tools in every spec and almost every spell behaves in the same way.
    No matter what spec I play, it feels as if I am play the exact same character but with a different role in the party.
    That is one of the reasons why I am sad that they removed some of the healing spells in prot/ret, it goes away from that 'paladin-feeling'.
    Originally Posted by Alpha Patch Notes (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
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  12. #232
    Immortal Dukenukemx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Doesn't matter, the point still holds regardless of that. There's only a point where you can make effectively 3 different talent trees (or squares if you prefer now) one for each spec.
    But if you look at the new level 100 talents, it pushes for individual specs. For example the Light Within works totally different for Holy, then it does for Prot and Ret. It also works like that for Seal of Faith. Divine Conviction is just totally different for every spec. They sorta started doing this for talents like Eternal Flame, where Ret and Prot weren't touching it. They had to make exceptions for specs, even though they sorta did this with other classes from the start of MOP.

    No getting around the talents were badly designed, and a lot of them need changes.

  13. #233
    A note regarding Seal of Faith: Celestalon tweeted that they want SoF to be more of a commitment and not to just be swapped to in combat. Ret will also get more heals. Their intent is to let the player play 1/2 heal 1/2 dps (or maybe even tank) if a fight calls for it such as a 10 which might benefit best from having 2 tanks, 2.5 healers, and 5.5 dps.

    Hopefully Ret getting more heals means Holy will get more DPS options too.
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  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    A note regarding Seal of Faith: Celestalon tweeted that they want SoF to be more of a commitment and not to just be swapped to in combat. Ret will also get more heals. Their intent is to let the player play 1/2 heal 1/2 dps (or maybe even tank) if a fight calls for it such as a 10 which might benefit best from having 2 tanks, 2.5 healers, and 5.5 dps.
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.
    Eh, we'll see how it goes. Blizz seems pretty set on making it available for Ret, but it might not work. At least it's just a talent option instead of actually forcing anyone to take it.

    Though it will be interesting to see how they handle the lack of mana with it if it's expected to use cast time heals at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  16. #236
    Seal of faith looks like plenty of fun for hpala. Stacking up faith during downtime in common burst-damage fights, then throw out Lights hammer that ticks for billions, or Holy prism which would be like AoE Lay on hands. I don't know. Give me the Beta already.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.
    ^ Blizzard hasn't been kind to half dps/heal specs. S Priest, Ret, Bal Druid, Ele Shaman all had their offheal options severely limited in this expac. If they want to balance around it, then why bother with a .5 dpser when you can just manmode the healers and burn through faster with a full dps? This game doesn't really support....uh...support classes.

  18. #238
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    ^ Blizzard hasn't been kind to half dps/heal specs. S Priest, Ret, Bal Druid, Ele Shaman all had their offheal options severely limited in this expac. If they want to balance around it, then why bother with a .5 dpser when you can just manmode the healers and burn through faster with a full dps? This game doesn't really support....uh...support classes.
    did you figure it out all by yourself?
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  19. #239
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.
    Wouldn't it be awesome if they made a Mythic fight where you actually need to use such a thing?
    Originally Posted by Alpha Patch Notes (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
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  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    ^ Blizzard hasn't been kind to half dps/heal specs. S Priest, Ret, Bal Druid, Ele Shaman all had their offheal options severely limited in this expac. If they want to balance around it, then why bother with a .5 dpser when you can just manmode the healers and burn through faster with a full dps? This game doesn't really support....uh...support classes.
    The core problem with the Seal of Faith talent is that the entire design of 50% dps /50% healing is that such a spec is 100% useless for mythic raiding.

    Classes that have been successful while doing multiple roles at once were usually excelling at their primary role and the secondary contribution came at close to no cost and massive raid benefit. Some classes of that sort this expansion:

    1)Disc Priest. Disc priests are by far the best healers number wise and also provide some damage. The class is more like 125% healing / 35% dps. If the class would do half of what it does right now in healing, none would use it.

    2)Prot Paladins. Prot paladins were one of the best tanks of MoP. In some encounters, like Wind Lord Mel'jarak a prot paladin was doing significantly more dps then the highest dpser, more healing then the highest healer while taking the least damage of all the tanks. When we were doing the unkilled version of Twins HC in the first week in T15, our prot paladin was doing 100k hps without any sacrifice whatsoever. If prot paladins took double the damage of other tank classes to compensate or did far less dps then them...

    3)Balance Druids. Through Heart of the Wild->Tranq+Rej spam I've seen balance druids do insane healing numbers.While at a small cost for the duration this proves invaluable at encounters like Lei Shen HC 25 allowing you to drop a healer and still survive the last phase. Not only does the Balance Druid not lose much(lets say he does 95% of his dps instead of the full 100%), he allows 1 full extra dps to join in place of the healer.

    Right now the talent would have a purpose if there is massive downtime before raid damge, you switch to Seal of Faith, do some dps and then you use something like Light's Hammer and switch back to Insight. The problem is Disc does all this much better and even with the empowerment Light's Hammer would still be outhealed by Healing Rain. Plus it comes with the awesomeness of Seal Switching=2 gcds of doing nothing.

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