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  1. #21
    High Overlord zen0x's Avatar
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    This is somewhat unrelated but didn't they say they'll get rid of DoT snapshotting? Isn't DoC pretty much useless in that case?
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  2. #22
    Blademaster boochicken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    This is somewhat unrelated but didn't they say they'll get rid of DoT snapshotting? Isn't DoC pretty much useless in that case?
    That's a fair point, I remember someone saying something about snapshotting making the skill cap for classes like Aff Locks too high, but I don't recall if they specifically said they were removing it. Snapshotting adds that level of thinking to a lot of classes that would be sorely missed if they took it out, they would be better off adding more abilities to the short list of those that already dynamically update (like mushroom efflo).

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Huh? You get Predatory Swiftness from Ferocious Bite as well. You wouldn't get less DoC charges because Savage Roar is a passive?
    Bite is not always a 100% substitute to get the proc. In some cases it is a waste or even a dps loss.

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Huh? You get Predatory Swiftness from Ferocious Bite as well. You wouldn't get less DoC charges because Savage Roar is a passive?
    It makes it to where you cant "sit" 4 charges of it- one will always be spent on FB, for 3 charges. Still, thats not really a change. The 4th charge would normally be used on mangle/shred though.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Huh? You get Predatory Swiftness from Ferocious Bite as well. You wouldn't get less DoC charges because Savage Roar is a passive?
    You can't Ferocious Bite nearly as aggressively as you can Savage Roar, and Ferocious Bite also costs double the energy (and way more than double if you look at post SotF costs).

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  6. #26
    Dreadlord Arian21's Avatar
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    They need to balance FB for pve. I mean to make it better without it making you press it every 5 combos .
    On Topic. I hate the Moonfire talent . I'd never take it over the other two except if they find some way for it to scale with feral mastery

    "Also let's not forget it's a spell which means it scales with spell haste and spell crit which are not really that good in the feral point of view"

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by babuka View Post
    This is somewhat unrelated but didn't they say they'll get rid of DoT snapshotting? Isn't DoC pretty much useless in that case?
    I talked to one of the designers at blizzcon in charge of this change. He said they are removing DoT snapshotting when it comes to stats. But when it comes to things like Savage Roar and DoC they will still improve the damage of the DoT for the full duration.

  8. #28
    High Overlord zen0x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    I talked to one of the designers at blizzcon in charge of this change. He said they are removing DoT snapshotting when it comes to stats. But when it comes to things like Savage Roar and DoC they will still improve the damage of the DoT for the full duration.
    That makes sense, although removing snapshotting of stats makes the decisions for feral rather easy. Guess that's what they are aiming for anyway.
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  9. #29
    Snapshotting is fine if you have one or two controlled things that you need to line up, but it becomes problematic when you factor in too many different procs/variation. For example, if only SR, DoC, and maybe TF snapshotted, that would be reasonably fair to control, with a sizeable DPS increase with good play. But when you have tailoring cloak enchant, dancing steel, mastery trinket proc, agi trinket proc, agi pot all as possibilities, it leads to too much variance in DPS depending on if you get lucky or not, regardless of your own skill. And historically, a large DPS skew leads to balancing so that the high end is not OP, leaving the low end feeling undertuned.

    A fair compromise in my mind would be to have DoTs snapshot percentage increases and proc mastery changes (really only trinkets that I can think of), but dynamically update with changes in agility/attack power. Reward for good play while bringing up the low end.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    Feral (Savagery)
    •Passive
    •Savage Roar is now passive.
    This actually gives us one free finisher every 30-33 seconds. Two finishers per minute. Roughly 15-20 finishers per decent bossfight.
    And then there are hunters. They sacrifice 10-15% of their damage coming from the pet for permanent 30% boost. That equals some 15% flat damage bonus, and it also makes easier for them (lolwut) to ignore the possibility of pet's death.
    Some 15% flat damage boost for hunters
    Some 2-3% total damage boost for cats.
    U surprised?
    U must be da new here, mon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    Feral (Bloody Thrash)
    •Passive
    •Thrash now also spreads Rake to other damaged enemies.
    Within the four years of raiding_cat lifetime we've been deemed as proper AoE once. ONCE. LK HM, Valkyries. Because that's where a short-timed burst AoE was required. Ever since that day and ever since prior to that day, other classes were dominant.
    Now we get a talent that grants us some AoE damage boost.
    Is it nice? Of course.
    Will it make us #1 for AoE-based encounters? Lolnope.
    Take a good long look at other classes' abilities and notice that nearly all of them got themselves new AoE skills. Don't bother scrolling through DK's if you cherish your sanity.
    So in short, everyone gets a new AoE. Only ours is a talent. What does that mean? That means we can EITHER have single-target damage boost OR AoE damage boost. Cat's famous versatility? Lol nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    Feral (Lunar Inspiration)
    •Passive
    •Moonfire is now usable while in Cat Form, generates 1 combo point, and costs 30 energy.
    This one is my favourite.
    I bet you three out of my eight oil towers that them nutwits at Billzord™ will accidently "forget" to properly code this skill. You see, currently its arcane damage. We druids only get nature spell damage bonus scaling from our AGI. Can you imagine the possibilities of a MINOR SETBACK here? Of course! We're allowing you to use one more DoT in your CaT (we surely don't have enough of those) but we will ACCIDENTLY miss that scaling. So enjoy your new DoT skill dealing next to zero damage. Of course we will fix it. Within some two raid content patches or so. Cats aren't an actual class, anyway. Why bother?




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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FeralSynapse View Post
    Bite is not always a 100% substitute to get the proc. In some cases it is a waste or even a dps loss.
    So you are using SR even though it is at 40+ sec duration to save the energy from having to use a FB?


    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    You can't Ferocious Bite nearly as aggressively as you can Savage Roar, and Ferocious Bite also costs double the energy (and way more than double if you look at post SotF costs).
    Why are you telling me that FB can cost more energy than SR? Are you going to tell me in the next post that Mangle costs less than Shred. I mean wtf?

    Ayway, I guess you never use FB then since the extra energy while still getting the DoC charge is worth losing the damage from FB? Of course not. I know FB costs more energy (if you don't use it at 25) but that guy was basically suggesting that passive SR would be a dps loss for DoC which is ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    Snapshotting is fine if you have one or two controlled things that you need to line up, but it becomes problematic when you factor in too many different procs/variation. For example, if only SR, DoC, and maybe TF snapshotted, that would be reasonably fair to control, with a sizeable DPS increase with good play. But when you have tailoring cloak enchant, dancing steel, mastery trinket proc, agi trinket proc, agi pot all as possibilities, it leads to too much variance in DPS depending on if you get lucky or not, regardless of your own skill. And historically, a large DPS skew leads to balancing so that the high end is not OP, leaving the low end feeling undertuned.
    Reduce the strength of trinkets and completely change BitW. The combination of extremely strong trinkets combined with BitW is what lead to the big variance. I had tries on Malk yesterday when I was at 410k dps with him at 25% and had an insane BitW rip up and another one where I was at 350k something and a sucky BitW rip up with very little change to my play. End result would be a delta of 70k dps or more. That's too much RNG. Reducing strengths of procs would help this. But the snaphotting mechanic is so fun I am sad to see it being removed. It is what causes you to have to react to procs. Without it, everything will be so predictable. Even if it snaps TF you still know exactly when it will happen. Predictable = boring. And we have no other fun procs like mages do. I hope they add some fun mechanic to take snapshotting's place.
    Last edited by inferior2; 2013-11-15 at 01:39 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Why are you telling me that FB can cost more energy than SR? Are you going to tell me in the next post that Mangle costs less than Shred. I mean wtf?

    Ayway, I guess you never use FB then since the extra energy while still getting the DoC charge is worth losing the damage from FB? Of course not. I know FB costs more energy (if you don't use it at 25) but that guy was basically suggesting that passive SR would be a dps loss for DoC which is ridiculous.

    No reason to get offended. I never said I agreed with his point. It does cause your finishers to be more expensive than without, and therefore very slightly less frequent, which isn't ideal but that's not to say it's a DPS loss. It does have an anti-synergy of sorts, but it's not a significant one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Reduce the strength of trinkets and completely change BitW. The combination of extremely strong trinkets combined with BitW is what lead to the big variance. I had tries on Malk yesterday when I was at 410k dps with him at 25% and had an insane BitW rip up and another one where I was at 350k something and a sucky BitW rip up with very little change to my play. End result would be a delta of 70k dps or more. That's too much RNG. Reducing strengths of procs would help this. But the snaphotting mechanic is so fun I am sad to see it being removed. It is what causes you to have to react to procs. Without it, everything will be so predictable. Even if it snaps TF you still know exactly when it will happen. Predictable = boring. And we have no other fun procs like mages do. I hope they add some fun mechanic to take snapshotting's place.
    Most of the fun is because it's fun to do big numbers, having a big delta allows you to do that. But it also really sucks when you do a pull perfectly, get complete shit for procs and do shit DPS because of it.

    I wouldn't say the mechanic is any more "fun" than any other "skill"-based mechanic they could give us, in fact I think they could do better.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-11-15 at 02:21 AM.

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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Most of the fun is because it's fun to do big numbers, having a big delta allows you to do that. But it also really sucks when you do a pull perfectly, get complete shit for procs and do shit DPS because of it.
    This is probably the main reason behind the removal of snapshotting, especially in light of the addition of RPPM mechanics to the game. The core of the problem is that once you add so many variables outside of our control, skill can only take you so far w/o additional and/or external help... or even just luck! That isn't to say that skill won't still play a factor, but the changes should prevent skill from not mattering when luck is not on your side.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    that guy was basically suggesting that passive SR would be a dps loss for DoC which is ridiculous.
    Do you not read? I said *in some cases*. Last time I check some did not equal all. More so, My main point was similar to what Aggix said, it is an anti-synergy. Stop taking everything as a personal attack. We have different opinions-accept it and move on.

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    Last edited by FeralSynapse; 2013-11-15 at 03:29 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post

    Most of the fun is because it's fun to do big numbers, having a big delta allows you to do that. But it also really sucks when you do a pull perfectly, get complete shit for procs and do shit DPS because of it.
    Snapshotting by itself doesn't cause that much RNG, it is the extreme strengths of RPPM trinkets that are. Change BitW, don't make any more insane RoR-esque trinkets, put proper dot strengths in the standard UI. Done.

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    I wouldn't say the mechanic is any more "fun" than any other "skill"-based mechanic they could give us, in fact I think they could do better.
    Big numbers are fun but I am talking about a class being mechanically fun to play. If you would get a fire mage TBC style rotation but still do big numbers, would it still be fun? Now, of course it won't be that bad but just turn off your trinket proc addons and go do a single target rotation ignoring the fact that snapshotting exist. How insanely boring. I bet you could /castsequence the whole rotation without losing much... For me, playing is fun when there is some RNG and you have to react to things that happen (procs). Snapshotting is the only significant thing that fulfills this for feral druids.

    You are talking about some other skill mechanic they could give us. Of course they could but they haven't said anything about it, they even said they didn't want to do big changes to classes. What we know is that snapshotting will be removed and that is the situation we can discuss. Rest is speculation. With statements like "warlocks skill ceiling is waay to high" I'm scared they will just remove snapshotting and keep us as we are and balance us around that. And in comes the +-5% delta between perfect play and decent play.


    Quote Originally Posted by FeralSynapse View Post
    Do you not read? I said *in some cases*. Last time I check some did not equal all. More so, My main point was similar to what Aggix said, it is an anti-synergy. Stop taking everything as a personal attack. We have different opinions-accept it and move on.

    *Note: She....is not to fond of he.
    I guess you would say that Treants are "not viable with DoC tbh." since they don't synergies with DoC but SotF do? Oh wait, Treants + DoC is #1 single target talent combination.

    I know you tried to make a point about synergy. I'm making the point that synergy doesn't matter since it doesn't account for the actual strength of the talent itself. Without knowing more about the numbers of the other talents statement like "I would write this talent off as not viable with DoC tbh." is very silly.

    Sorry about making assumptions about your gender.
    Last edited by inferior2; 2013-11-15 at 03:56 AM.

  16. #36
    It's alright Infer-I really don't take it to heart. I should be used to it now to be honest (gender thing). It comes back to play style I guess. I can't see making savage roar passive being that much of a gain for anyone-that should be the least of your problems as a feral.

    I don't expect these talents, in their current form, to make it to live.

    Side Comment: Is it true that they are doing away with positional requirements as well? It would be nice to see Mangle -Bear only and Shred-Feral only.

  17. #37
    Most ferals here are RoRO-junkies.
    Bite = trash? Passive Roar = trash? Moonfire does not scale with mastery = trash? Treants > SoTF? Bloody Thrash = OP? Dot snapshots = fun?
    Your conclusions are invalid.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i dont use RoR, (never dropped for me )
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by mmokri View Post
    Most ferals here are RoRO-junkies.
    Bite = trash? Passive Roar = trash? Moonfire does not scale with mastery = trash? Treants > SoTF? Bloody Thrash = OP? Dot snapshots = fun?
    Your conclusions are invalid.
    Ah, the cutiness of those who fail to properly read others' posts. Did I say that passive roar is trash? No. I explained why its far less effective than other classes' talents in terms of flat percentage efficiency and that about does it.
    NO LVL100 DRUID TALENT WILL EVER GIVE US 15% DAMAGE GAIN.
    Simple as that.
    And if you honestly believe that Moonfire dot will be released as a proper and viable DoT, if you honestly believe that we might claim the "top AoE" title this time, well... You must be new here.
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  20. #40
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    well i do beleive it will be a vaible dot,
    aslong as its even slightly better then a mangle or shred in DPE then its worth it.
    ofcourse it should not be nearly as good as rake.
    it wont scale on mastery, but it should scale with haste.
    i think they just give us direct agi to SP conversion instead of agi to nature SP

    the aoe spreading rake, well there is no other way to interpetate it then MASSIVE AOE DPS!!
    but as i said in my original psot it gives us 0 dps on normal single target fights

    the passive SR is indeed a bit meh, at most you gain like 40 energy and 5 cp's every 40 seconds..
    Last edited by Elunedra; 2013-11-15 at 12:11 PM.
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