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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    well i do beleive it will be a vaible dot,
    aslong as its even slightly better then a mangle or shred in DPE then its worth it.
    ofcourse it should not be nearly as good as rake
    it wont scale on mastery, but it should scale with haste

    the aoe spreading rake, well there is no other way to interpetate it then MASSIVE NR1 AOE DPS!!

    the passive SR is indeed a bit meh, at most you gain like 40 energy and 5 cp's every 40 seconds..
    AoE Rake is nice. But all other classes have their own immense AoE boosts. Only ours is talent-based so its either some single-target damage boost or this. This isn't really nice.
    And do you really think GC's legacy will allow them Billzord™ to imlpement proper scaling on that Moonfire?
    "WITH RET IN WOTLK, BLIZZARD COMMITTED THE CARDINAL SIN OF MMORGS: THEY BASICALLY PRODUCED A TANK MAGE" ©

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    what proper scaling does it need? all they need todo is change the AGI to nature SP conversion into AGI to all SP conversion
    for the rest if ofcourse already scales on crit / haste
    it will never scale on mastery and it doesnt have to stay usefull becase shred & mangle dont either

    now the only doubt full point is if it will use ranged hit%
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    now the only doubt full point is if it will use ranged hit%
    You run 15% spell hit as long as your hit and expertise capped, so even the hit table won't matter if your at the right melee caps, oh and the fact that there is not more hit and expertise in WoD

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    what proper scaling does it need? all they need todo is change the AGI to nature SP conversion into AGI to all SP conversion
    for the rest if ofcourse already scales on crit / haste
    it will never scale on mastery and it doesnt have to stay usefull becase shred & mangle dont either

    now the only doubt full point is if it will use ranged hit%
    Except it doesn't scale with sources of melee crit (agi) so it's terrible at generating combo points.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  5. #45
    Honestly I think the talents are in a good spot for feral. When it comes to boss DPS, there will generally be a clear winner for single target, so what they are doing this time I really like. Thrash spreads rake for clear winner for AoE situations, moonfire for clear winner single target situations (as long as they balance it even reasonably well), and SR being passive for simplification and for soloing. Everyone seems to discount how great a passive SR is for soloing, or simple things like timeless isle, and blizzard is moving towards more and more solo/world content that even raiders want to participate in. Having a talent that is totally useless for raids, but amazing for soloing is honestly fine with me, that way they can better balance the raid talent without worrying about keeping two talents similar in power.

    Though I do echo the fact that the moonfire lv 100 talent will be a slight DPS gain, whereas currently the hunter lv 100 talent gives a straight 10% damage boost in most cases (looking at current WoL, random hunter did 310k DPS, pet did 60k, for 370k total. With talent, hunter does 407k, or ~10% boost over what he did total before). I am sure they will fine tune everything, and all talents don't have to be equal but I would prefer all talents have a significant impact.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by v1perz53 View Post
    Honestly I think the talents are in a good spot for feral. When it comes to boss DPS, there will generally be a clear winner for single target, so what they are doing this time I really like. Thrash spreads rake for clear winner for AoE situations, moonfire for clear winner single target situations (as long as they balance it even reasonably well), and SR being passive for simplification and for soloing. Everyone seems to discount how great a passive SR is for soloing, or simple things like timeless isle, and blizzard is moving towards more and more solo/world content that even raiders want to participate in. Having a talent that is totally useless for raids, but amazing for soloing is honestly fine with me, that way they can better balance the raid talent without worrying about keeping two talents similar in power.

    Though I do echo the fact that the moonfire lv 100 talent will be a slight DPS gain, whereas currently the hunter lv 100 talent gives a straight 10% damage boost in most cases (looking at current WoL, random hunter did 310k DPS, pet did 60k, for 370k total. With talent, hunter does 407k, or ~10% boost over what he did total before). I am sure they will fine tune everything, and all talents don't have to be equal but I would prefer all talents have a significant impact.
    If you compare to the level 90 talents for most classes (which I think is a fair comparison), 10% damage increase for one talent is blatantly over budget. I mean you can easily look at something like Nature's Vigil which ignoring cooldown stackings maths out pretty easily to 4%.

    And yeah it's definitely nice for soloing. It would be a godsend for levelling to 100, too bad it's a level 100 talent.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  7. #47
    Also these talents look like leveling award. Because active talents are blizzard's design.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    yes blizzard wants active talents, yet druids always get the passive ones
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  9. #49
    I don't post here normally since my druid is only in his late 30's and is not my main, but I stopped by to say I would love if the passive Savage Roar was something we got while leveling, rather than at max level. Would make questing nicer, IMO. That said, if I keep playing WoW(I am undecided) and decide to finish him(he's one of my potential choices for the "instant lvl 90" if I do keep playing), I will still probably take it as my druid will be a very casual toon and passive SR is just a very convenient feature.

  10. #50
    Stormcoll, you can check way of rogue.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    no dont, rogue's suck
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ontis View Post
    Ah, the cutiness of those who fail to properly read others' posts. Did I say that passive roar is trash? No. I explained why its far less effective than other classes' talents in terms of flat percentage efficiency and that about does it.
    NO LVL100 DRUID TALENT WILL EVER GIVE US 15% DAMAGE GAIN.
    Simple as that.
    And if you honestly believe that Moonfire dot will be released as a proper and viable DoT, if you honestly believe that we might claim the "top AoE" title this time, well... You must be new here.
    It's early on and most of the talents they presented for all classes won't go through or be changed majorly. Do you really believe that they will let hunters get 15% from one talent. It will make it almost as mandatory as a feral in catform, which they don't want.

    I think they should remove the savage roar-talent to first tier instead of giving it at lvl 100. Find it a boring talent, and i can't see myself using it.

    trash/rake will make aoe rather passive instead of running around keeping rake up on some targets.And less lackluster. Seems like a nice change.

    Moonfire is interesting, with its dot, but i admit i somewhat like big numbers. The more dots we have running, the less each of them will hit for, to balance it.
    So with that we would have SR, rake, trash, rip, moonfire, FF.
    I'm pretty sure i would pick that talent on singletarget, unless it's broken and isn't a gain. It seems like a fun idea, and give us some ranged damage-ability too.

    Overall i find them interesting enough.
    Last edited by Terridon; 2013-11-18 at 12:14 PM.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  13. #53
    The other thing that's nice about moonfire talent is its synergy with DoC talent as moonfire is a spell and shouldn't consume DoC charges, which means we'd have a way to gen CPs without having to use mangle/shred and use a DoC charge, ensuring that pretty much every rip/rake is buffed by Doc with much less effort than is needed today.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by felcommander View Post
    The other thing that's nice about moonfire talent is its synergy with DoC talent as moonfire is a spell and shouldn't consume DoC charges, which means we'd have a way to gen CPs without having to use mangle/shred and use a DoC charge, ensuring that pretty much every rip/rake is buffed by Doc with much less effort than is needed today.
    But it's far less efficient at generating CP than any other generator, even if it does proc Primal Fury, because it will almost definitely still use our spell crit chance, not our melee crit chance.

    Also I would be a bit surprised if DoC is completely untouched going into the next expansion, they clearly expressed interest in overhauling it in 5.4 but reverted the change (for now) due to the backlash.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    But it's far less efficient at generating CP than any other generator, even if it does proc Primal Fury, because it will almost definitely still use our spell crit chance, not our melee crit chance.

    Also I would be a bit surprised if DoC is completely untouched going into the next expansion, they clearly expressed interest in overhauling it in 5.4 but reverted the change (for now) due to the backlash.
    I agree, but pretty much everything is speculation at this point, if we're going to talk about how things might be changed then why even talk about the level 100 talents because there is no way they make it live in their current forms. I'm just saying it would be a dps gain to be able to generate that last CP to get off a trinket proc/tf/doc rip by using moonfire, assuming moonfire doesn't consume the Doc charge.

    Chances are for the moonfire thing to work its going to have to be changed a good deal anyway, its AP coefficient is going to have to be fairly high for it to be worth casting, otherwise with all things in consideration at a high gear level (master, melee crit) it probably won't be worth using over even a shred unless it has some short of absurd dpe, and if it does the fact that it doesn't scale with all our stats means that it will be buffed every patch in order to keep it as a dps increase.

    But for now lets just assume blizzard knows what they are doing and balances things correctly (lol?)

  16. #56
    Can't really deduce too much about these talents without knowing more of what they will do with Feral. Removing snapshotting is going to necessitate an overhaul of the spec.

  17. #57
    The Patient Taiknee's Avatar
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    Savagery seems like the best choice for both PvE and PvP. Clear PvE DPS boost (where Bloody Thrash is chosen for AoE fights) and no more having to use a major glyph slot for it in PvP. Lunar Inspiration is most likely not going to be a single-target DPS boost, or barely will be one, because I think it's oriented more towards still being able to do something from range when you can't be in melee range.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiknee View Post
    Savagery seems like the best choice for both PvE and PvP. Clear PvE DPS boost (where Bloody Thrash is chosen for AoE fights) and no more having to use a major glyph slot for it in PvP. Lunar Inspiration is most likely not going to be a single-target DPS boost, or barely will be one, because I think it's oriented more towards still being able to do something from range when you can't be in melee range.
    If it's "the best choice" then clearly the talent tier isn't well-designed. Talents (especially high-tier ones) should be designed around choice and variability and not for giving one talent or PvP, one talent for PvE and one talent to fill the last slot (ie. our current T4/T6 situation).

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    If it's "the best choice" then clearly the talent tier isn't well-designed. Talents (especially high-tier ones) should be designed around choice and variability and not for giving one talent or PvP, one talent for PvE and one talent to fill the last slot (ie. our current T4/T6 situation).
    that ofcourse all comes down to balacing, like when HotW got a passive +6% agi

    never the less it hard for them to make talents that will equaly benefic all 4 specs in both pve and pve.
    its a lot easyer to make hunter talents as in each situation they got to X dmg

    but ours for to increase survive ability, increare healing , increase spell dmg and increase psyscical dmg
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    If it's "the best choice" then clearly the talent tier isn't well-designed. Talents (especially high-tier ones) should be designed around choice and variability and not for giving one talent or PvP, one talent for PvE and one talent to fill the last slot (ie. our current T4/T6 situation).
    I think if you expect them to balance three talents that are all equally useful in a PvE single target fight you are expecting too much. If you have two talents, one will always be better than the other DPS wise unless you give each their own niche (for example, moonfire talent is best DPS on a boss that flies in the air and isn't in melee range for 10 seconds every minute, and there are no adds to kill at that time, whereas savagery is better normally). I would certainly prefer three talents each with situational usefulness, but where that usefulness is clear. For example, savagery for soloing, thrash for AoE fights, and Moonfire for single target max DPS. Each talent is useful, because I do all of those things, but it is also always clear which I should use. That is really the only way to do talents that effect DPS imo, the "totally up to you, all are always viable" talents will always be the random movement/control tiers like T1 or T3 talents.

    With that said, if Savagery ends up being the best single target DPS talent, then that seems to be incredibly lackluster. Taking a random feral druid WoL, I replaced every Savage Roar they cast with a crit Ferocious Bite, and it came out to be a 1% overall DPS gain. And this is certainly an oversimplification, as in reality the benefit will be lower. (I can post the math if anyone is really all that curious, but it is pretty simple to do yourself). Savagery is a convenience talent, wonderful for soloing or fights that are incredibly short, but on real bosses it will not amount to that big of a DPS gain, so I really hope Moonfire talent is stronger.

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