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  1. #1
    High Overlord Drweird's Avatar
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    Moonkin DPS Mechanics for certain fights

    Hey,

    So my guild has asked me to go moonkin for Tuesday's raid. My armory is -- http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cules/advanced. I know I'm where I should be at on reforges and stat priorities (though if anyone does see a glaring issue there please don't hesitate to let me know).

    Where my questions lie are in talents and fight mechanics. I plan on using Inc and HotW on every fight and am pretty confident in my ability to carry out single target abilities. It's the short lived AOE in this tier that seems to cripple my dps.

    1) Heroic Immerseus -- do you guys just unload on him until he gets the shield and then hurricane the adds? Then rinse and repeat? This fight confuses me dps wise in the parts that you are actually targeting Immerseus for. The blobs seem rather straightforward. Again any walkthrough help would be appreciated.

    2) Any other real fight with short lived AoE situations -- IE Spoils of Pandaria and Galakras? What are your guys' tactics here? I'm trying very hard to maximize my damage and failing.

    Cheers,

    Brocules

  2. #2
    Hey this is Silyc from your guild (Syless from Dsylxeic), go ahead and add me to your battletag hopefully I can give you some advance on what I do. Cylus#1879

  3. #3
    High Overlord Drweird's Avatar
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    Thanks man. Had no idea there was someone on Drenden who could be of help. When would you be available to chat?

  4. #4
    Immerseus, I just unload on him and hurricane small adds

    Spoils i just multidot absolutely everything, but outside of large crate mobs, nothing is worth re-dotting. Sparks are not as great to multidot since they die quick however, but they need to go down so i just swallow and dps loss.. doesnt stop me from being top dps anyways.

  5. #5
    I'll be on for a few hours tonight if you can hop on.

  6. #6
    hurricane is dps loss. what you really want to do on hc immerseus is be hybrid, and like it or not but your shrooms are quite effectiv here, and tons times better then hurricane [generally people say shrooms are bad because you use 3 global cooldowns by spawning 3 shrooms, and 1 global cooldown for trigger them, so the 200k burst or 300k not sure, isn't worth 4 sec to use on, but if you had them up before encounter starts then it's 1 global cooldown and not 4!. and immerseus is quite slacky aswell that you just do nothing, so ye! remember this]

    when immerseus is down just put shrooms for where your guild is collecting adds [Edit: if you have a holy paladin, ask him to use Threat aura, rightious fury or w.e it's called, I am not a paladin player just know what they can do. This way when he is healing raid he will have aggro. adds deals no dmg, and he is plate user so ye, easy to collect add where the off-tank can easily tank them all], and simple destroy them, ofc you could hurricane when they are all stacked but do you really have the time to stand where you are standing and channel a spell? i guess not. in my guild we decided to ignore the concept of DPS on immerseus, and just do it right, we are currently 25m guild with 2 (3 with os) boomkins who really don't give a crap about dps, and actually also heals during the encounter. so for immerseus as long as it dies forget about rest of what to do or what shouldn't happend.


    in other fights, heart of the wild 100%. no other talents, and stick with incarnation, if someone says FoN is better for single target, he should go play for a better guild with more progress as FoN is just bad.

    as a boomkin you really just want to keep your NG up and dot while NG is up, and do your basic eclipse rotation. the only moment i use hurricane is on slims on dark shamans, but really we have 3 hunters with barrage so it really doesn't matter, and the billion adds on nazgrim before First attempt.


    DPS increasing you say? for certain fights. that would be your lunar vs solar openings

    you either wanna do lunar opening for single target or solar opening for aoe.


    lunar opening :
    start pre lunar 75 energy + have shrooms out under the boss.
    pre pot
    starfall
    wrath (hit lunar eclipse)
    incarnation
    dots
    and just do normal playstyle til you hit 0 energy
    CA + dot + detonate
    and then just play as a boomkin, this is lunar opener.

    Solar - Aoe fights, same as above start with 75 pre solar. and shrooms out.
    during pull time, pre pot, astral communion for hit eclipse!
    starfall + Starsurge
    CA + Incernation
    Dot's and spam starfire/starsurge btw when dotting multi dot since this is aoe opener. this is also where you detonate shrooms.

    when you are done with CA effects etc, you will find yourself close lunar, and you basically just keep uptime with your nature's grace and starfall

    source : excellent moonkin, just need hc garrosh !.

    goodluck
    Last edited by Squirly; 2013-11-24 at 12:13 AM.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirly View Post
    hurricane is dps loss. what you really want to do on hc immerseus is be hybrid, and like it or not but your shrooms are quite effectiv here, and tons times better then hurricane [generally people say shrooms are bad because you use 3 global cooldowns by spawning 3 shrooms, and 1 global cooldown for trigger them, so the 200k burst or 300k not sure, isn't worth 4 sec to use on, but if you had them up before encounter starts then it's 1 global cooldown and not 4!. and immerseus is quite slacky aswell that you just do nothing, so ye! remember this]

    when immerseus is down just put shrooms for where your guild is collecting adds [Edit: if you have a holy paladin, ask him to use Threat aura, rightious fury or w.e it's called, I am not a paladin player just know what they can do. This way when he is healing raid he will have aggro. adds deals no dmg, and he is plate user so ye, easy to collect add where the off-tank can easily tank them all], and simple destroy them, ofc you could hurricane when they are all stacked but do you really have the time to stand where you are standing and channel a spell? i guess not. in my guild we decided to ignore the concept of DPS on immerseus, and just do it right, we are currently 25m guild with 2 (3 with os) boomkins who really don't give a crap about dps, and actually also heals during the encounter. so for immerseus as long as it dies forget about rest of what to do or what shouldn't happend.


    in other fights, heart of the wild 100%. no other talents, and stick with incarnation, if someone says FoN is better for single target, he should go play for a better guild with more progress as FoN is just bad.

    as a boomkin you really just want to keep your NG up and dot while NG is up, and do your basic eclipse rotation. the only moment i use hurricane is on slims on dark shamans, but really we have 3 hunters with barrage so it really doesn't matter, and the billion adds on nazgrim before First attempt.


    DPS increasing you say? for certain fights. that would be your lunar vs solar openings

    you either wanna do lunar opening for single target or solar opening for aoe.


    lunar opening :
    start pre lunar 75 energy + have shrooms out under the boss.
    pre pot
    starfall
    wrath (hit lunar eclipse)
    incarnation
    dots
    and just do normal playstyle til you hit 0 energy
    CA + dot + detonate
    and then just play as a boomkin, this is lunar opener.

    Solar - Aoe fights, same as above start with 75 pre solar. and shrooms out.
    during pull time, pre pot, astral communion for hit eclipse!
    starfall + Starsurge
    CA + Incernation
    Dot's and spam starfire/starsurge btw when dotting multi dot since this is aoe opener. this is also where you detonate shrooms.

    when you are done with CA effects etc, you will find yourself close lunar, and you basically just keep uptime with your nature's grace and starfall

    source : excellent moonkin, just need hc garrosh !.

    goodluck
    Please refrain from offering incorrect advice. It confuses people.
    Firstly mushroom detonate is OFF the gcd, so pre-placed mushrooms don't require any GCD to detonate.
    If played correctly FON can still be an increase over INC/HOTW even with BOI that the OP doesn't have.
    If it's a single target fight, then the decision to start prelunar or IN solar depends on if you're using FON or not, or if you're pre aligning to hit solar at a later time for aoe phases like HC Immerseus.
    As for a multi target solar opener, there is no reason to start in pre solar unless you're running DOC, and even then its debatable depending on trinkets. (What's the use in AC'ing into solar for NG if the first button you press is CA? - Just start in solar).
    If this post wasn't so worrying, it would have been a good laugh.

    @OP You'll find pretty much everything you need to know on the Balance sticky, or head to the Sunfyre fix my dps thread. Try and avoid opening your own threads like these, without Logs, as without those there is no way we can tell you precisely what to work/improve on. And threads like these tend to get flodded with misinformed people like the guy above.


    Vexxe of Old School looking for established and reliable RBG Team to push HOTH PM me.






  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Please refrain from offering incorrect advice. It confuses people.
    Firstly mushroom detonate is OFF the gcd, so pre-placed mushrooms don't require any GCD to detonate.
    If played correctly FON can still be an increase over INC/HOTW even with BOI that the OP doesn't have.
    If it's a single target fight, then the decision to start prelunar or IN solar depends on if you're using FON or not, or if you're pre aligning to hit solar at a later time for aoe phases like HC Immerseus.
    As for a multi target solar opener, there is no reason to start in pre solar unless you're running DOC, and even then its debatable depending on trinkets. (What's the use in AC'ing into solar for NG if the first button you press is CA? - Just start in solar).
    If this post wasn't so worrying, it would have been a good laugh.

    @OP You'll find pretty much everything you need to know on the Balance sticky, or head to the Sunfyre fix my dps thread. Try and avoid opening your own threads like these, without Logs, as without those there is no way we can tell you precisely what to work/improve on. And threads like these tend to get flodded with misinformed people like the guy above.
    It's comical how confused/wrong/out of touch/divided most of the posters have become. Solar opener single target is wrong unless you still have a UVLS for some insane reason. Treants are close, but do not outperform Incarnation. HoTW is without question better above 500 ilvl.

    Kinda pointless trying to correct incorrect behaviors anyway b/c ppl will just argue and continue to do whatever ridiculous habit they've developed rather than improve their play.

  9. #9
    Keyboard Turner
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    If the solar opener isn't viable for single-target, then please explain to me why it's so heavily represented in the current spread for top 10 parses?

    To the OP: depending on your raid comp, you may or may not want to AOE the adds. At times, my raid has 3 warriors, 3+ warlocks and a few shadow priests. By the time I set down my targeting reticule for hurricane, the adds are dead. However, if your comp isn't stacked with classes that provide heavy, on-demand AOE, you could easily delay your CA until you get into solar and AOE the adds. Your mileage may vary.

    On other fights with adds that won't stay up long, the same premise remains true as for what I described for Immerseus. On Spoils, I never AOE, because the small adds die way too quickly. On Galakras, I open with Inc/CA and treat the fight in the same way I would protectors -- multi-dot while NG is up and cycle eclipses accordingly.
    Last edited by Chkchkchk; 2013-11-24 at 10:44 PM.

  10. #10
    So many ppl here that thinks to know everything about the moonkin :S

    1. Solar opener is better than lunar opener if you have RPPM trinkets (i will explain why later)
    2. You don't start already in solar, you start one cast away and when the tank count down you AC into solar.
    You do this because the opener should be like this:
    AC into Solar
    Starfall
    Prepot + Incarnation (starfall dinamically adjusts it's damage with procs and you should prefer to waste a sec of Starfall rather than a a sec of Incarnation)
    Cast Starsurge and Wrath, sometimes you will need to cast a second wrath, to proc your RPPM trinkets
    That's the reason why you AC into solar eclipse, to have the 15% haste from NG while you cast the 2 spells needed to activate your trinkets.
    - activate Celestial Alignment
    - cast Moonfire
    - cast Starsurge and Starfire
    - when you are about to leave CA refresh your DoTs
    Remember to track your active intellect / haste / metagem procs, because it's surely better to refresh dots while you still have 3 sec before CA falls off, but every trinket and haste proc active rather than waiting for CA to be at 0.5 sec, but no more procs active.

    And now the explanation to why solar opener is better:
    Being the RPPM trinkets a 10 sec duration, if you started with the classical Lunar opener and waited to reach 0 energy before activating Celestial Alignment while your nukes (starfire and starsurge) did benefit from potion+both trinkets your dots probably wouldn't, because the proc of one or both trinkets was fallen off already.

    Some could argue that you can pop CA even if you start from Lunar.
    That's partially correct, but you risk to waste starfall because with both openers you end up using 3 starfalls, but with the lunar one you have a new starfall as soon as you cast your first nuke and you have to use it before popping Celestial Alignment.
    With the Solar one, instead, you have your second Strarfall when you pop CA and can wait for the first one to end, the third one is gained moments after CA ends, when entering lunar, and if the second Starfall is still active once again you can wait for it to end.

    The second reason why Solar opener is better is that you skip the weak wrath part at the beginning of the fight.
    With the Lunar opener after CA is gone you enter solar eclipse with 0 procs active and you cast weak wraths + even weaker wraths in post solar.
    With the Solar opener after CA is gone you ususally have a Shooting Stars proc or even more than one that brings you into Lunar almost instantly. Procs won't be active exactly like the Lunar opener, but having a starfall and casting Starfire will surely be way better than casting only wraths (especially if the raid used heroism/bloodlust at the beginning of the fight)

    If you have Purified Bindings of Immerseus you will always want to use Incarnation over FoN because the trinket increases Mastery, and while Incarnation benfits from mastery, Treants don't (and every fight has multiple targets you can dot making Incarnation better than FoN anyway)

    Fappasaurus and Squirly should get a clue about how to DPS as a balance druid before commenting.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-11-25 at 06:26 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    <snip>
    The only problem with what you are saying is that RPPM trinkets are the very first to proc on pull, usually from Starfall. On the other hand ICD ones are usually the problem with "all out" openers and the reason why you might wanna cast before cds.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    So many ppl here that thinks to know everything about the moonkin :S



    Fappasaurus and Squirly should get a clue about how to DPS as a balance druid before commenting.

    Excuse me? lol. How many rank one parses do you have? What's your heroic raiding experience?

    You lose so much from that opener it's ridiculous. I've explained 100 times on this forum that when you open in lunar CA always gets both trinket procs regardless of the SoO trinkets used. Your "mongoloid lol swifty big cooldown 1 button" method is wrong, any experienced person that plays balance and understands the mechanics realized that opening in lunar protects from most bad rng + gains a starfall
    Last time I explain this to the close minded community that choses to even read this forum(for troll race):

    75 pre lunar
    starfall
    pot
    wrath
    Incarnation: Chosen of Elune, during the travel time of wrath
    sunfire
    moonfire
    berserking
    starsurge cast
    starurge procs/starfires to neutral (sometimes 20energy left depending on proc rng)
    starfall wem 1st starfall expiring...
    CA
    moonfire
    rinse/repeat

    moonkin 101
    cancel casts to starsurge, use proper opener, be an engineer/tailor, track trinkets - profit

    If you chose to do your own thing idc, but if you're just going to disregard what I say without at least attempting a better strategy you can gtfo and stop trying to give advice and developing bad habits for new players asking for advice

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Prepot + Incarnation
    Cast Wrath
    And I am the one that needs to get a clue?
    non-staggered use of CDs is not ideal for single target. It was only used for UVLS trinket and to squeeze in 2nd use if you're cutting it close to get 3 off.

    @OP it's been a week now since you posted do you plan on enchanting your weapon?

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-11-25 at 06:23 PM.

  13. #13
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Excuse me? lol. How many rank one parses do you have? What's your heroic raiding experience?

    What a stupid comment. How many rank ones do you have? What's YOUR heroic raiding experience? We don't know ANYTHING about your character.

    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post

    75 pre lunar
    starfall
    pot
    wrath
    Incarnation: Chosen of Elune, during the travel time of wrath
    sunfire
    moonfire
    berserking
    starsurge cast
    starurge procs/starfires to neutral (sometimes 20energy left depending on proc rng)
    CA
    moonfire
    rinse/repeat
    Nice job, you forgot your second Starfall before CA. Normally I wouldn't point this out, but since you seem to be under the impression that you are nothing less than perfection.

    Also, with ONLY one target alive you are going to have to get some SS procs to ensure you get through Lunar quick enough for your trinkets still be up by the time you CA, if they proc on the pull. If they proc on the pull, and there's even one other target worth dotting, forget about it you are basically wasting your entire Lunar Incarnation, which will get made up far in the vastly weaker single target damage of Solar Eclipse.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-11-25 at 04:03 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Nice job, you forgot your second Starfall before CA. Normally I wouldn't point this out, but since you seem to be under the impression that you are nothing less than perfection.
    ty for pointing that out, it can sometimes be difficult to translate actual play into words. Kinda important since I was emphasizing this gives an extra starfall lol (ps nice 37 thok, hang it up on the wall for all to see plz)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    What a stupid comment. How many rank ones do you have? What's YOUR heroic raiding experience? We don't know ANYTHING about your character.



    Nice job, you forgot your second Starfall before CA. Normally I wouldn't point this out, but since you seem to be under the impression that you are nothing less than perfection.

    Also, with ONLY one target alive you are going to have to get some SS procs to ensure you get through Lunar quick enough for your trinkets still be up by the time you CA, if they proc on the pull. If they proc on the pull, and there's even one other target worth dotting, forget about it you are basically wasting your entire Lunar Incarnation, which will get made up far in the vastly weaker single target damage of Solar Eclipse.
    its super hard to walk to target dummy and push the buttons i just outlined in exact words (assuming you can remember when to starfall)

    U lose inc time opening in solar as well... this is closest actually to wasting the least amount of it
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-11-25 at 04:04 PM.

  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    ty for pointing that out, it can sometimes be difficult to translate actual play into words. Kinda important since I was emphasizing this gives an extra starfall lol (ps nice 37 thok, hang it up on the wall for all to see plz)
    Uh oh, you got me. My poor play made me do poorly on a boss fight. I'd love to be able to point out your poor parses but since, ya know, we don't even know your character, that's kind of difficult.

    Keep hiding behind some random name though, that's a good strategy to avoid getting exposed.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-11-25 at 06:25 PM.

  16. #16
    @meldon " Fappasaurus and Squirly should get a clue about how to DPS as a balance druid before commenting."

    Why did you and all other guys think they are the one and oly god in this universe? The most posts postet on this forums for moonkins are poisent with this unmannerd behavior. We moonkins should help each other, work together and share new ideas about things that could be a dps increase whats so ever.

    Anytime anyone here asks something in a new post two things happen instantly: 1. the poster gets informed that he should never made a new post and ask his question because his question is already answered in the glory moonkin guild and 2. "gods" come and battle each other and each god makes failures in his explanations and shares wrong information.

    Must that be? Is there not a other way we moonkins be mannerd and lovely to each other? Is it not possible that some people have one specific question that they didnt find answered in the wall of text in the glory moonkin sticky?

    Its sad in which way posts went here...

    And no meldon you are not god: you start in solar because ca activates ns.
    Last edited by Whitestrife; 2013-11-25 at 05:01 PM.

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    @Fapp why would you choose to pop berzerking during Inc alone, and not during inc+ca? o.O


    Vexxe of Old School looking for established and reliable RBG Team to push HOTH PM me.






  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    @Fapp why would you choose to pop berzerking during Inc alone, and not during inc+ca? o.O
    It overlaps the very first application of CA dots.

  20. #20
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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