Competitive games with simple rules but steep learning curve

[May90]

Hello everyone.
First of all, this post will not be short, so, if you want to get the main idea, please read the bold list below.

Due to shortage of my free time since recently, I cannot afford to play more than, say, 1-2 hours a day except for weekends. I'd like to "specialize" on some competitive game, but such complex games as Starcraft 2 or even League of Legends require more than that to achieve any serious level of play.

I'd like to find some really simple game, but, despite that, highly competitive with practically unlimited potential for self-development. A game that doesn't require insane 200 APM, memorizing hundreds of builds and so on.

An example of such game would be Photon Cycles map in Starcraft 2. There you and other players are moving on 2D plane leaving discrete line behind you and whoever touches any line dies. The last standing player wins a round. The first player to win a fixed number of rounds wins the game. You have to do only 2 actions in this game: change direction of your motion by moving mouse left-right and shortly boost your speed by pressing mouse button. The rules are extremely simple and even 3 years old child will get into this game immediately; however to master it you need a LOT of practice: you need incredible mouse precision, a lot of tricks to catch opponents nearby, dodge opponents' tricks, then, on the next level, do a series of tricks, and so on, and so on. The new players' rounds last for 40 seconds or so, but masters can play for many minutes and still hang in there.
Unfortunately, it's simply a Custom map which is lost behind competitive ladders and such, and thereby it also doesn't have any ladder system, so a good player has to play with noobs most of the time. Not even mentioning the fact that you have to sit in a lobby for many minutes to collect even several players.

I'd like to find something similar, but with a large competitive scene, with pro players, with tons of guides and tips from veteran players and so on. I'll try to summarize the preferences in the next list:

- Simple, very simple rules, not demanding a big APM and easy to get into for new players, but hard to master. Possible to master without everyday 6 hours practice but rather with a long time of playing 1-2 hours a day. Preferably not too intensive and not causing exhaustion.
- Serious competitive scene, with pro players, guides from veterans, Youtube commentators (if possible), ladder (if possible).
- [Really preferred] 1v1 or FFA game, or at least with small teams like 2v2. Not like 5v5 in LoL where your success mostly depends on the other players than on your skill.
- Not FPS or MMO. Just hate these genres, that's all.

Now, about some games I've tried or heard of.
Hearthstone and Magic: The Gathering: These games seem like the thing. Yet I just don't like card games very much. Is Hearthstone worth trying?
Starcraft 2, Age of Empires 2 HD, Warcraft 3 and other RTS games: Too complex to master without everyday hard practice. Demands a very good mechanics, i.e. APM, knowing countless builds, etc. Requires to stay 100% focused during all the game which is very stressful.
League of Legends, DOTA, etc.: Still requires knowing all the heroes and items. Also the games are strictly large team-based, so you can be very good but still keep losing due to bad teammates.
Age of Empires Online: Never played it, only saw some Youtube videos. Does it require high APM in order to play in the highest ranks, or is it more about general strategy?
Chess: To get into professional level, you have to spend 20 years of hard everyday work, and still the result is not guaranteed. In my teens I almost got into Masters, but that game was freaking irritating. This game is a great example of what I am NOT seeking.

Still, the mentioned games are not exactly what I'm looking for. It would be great to have a VERY simple game where you, say, don't even have to use your keyboard, but still have an infinite room for improvement. Something like... I don't know, Monopoly Online? Pacman Online? Elastomania Online? QWOP Online? Something like one of these.

Thanks guys in advance! <3

[Valeron]

so card games, mobas, rts, fps, mmos, and chess are all out

I can't think of any video games or any game in general that will fill your request if you remove the above

maybe pick up a sport instead

[May90]

so card games, mobas, rts, fps, mmos, and chess are all out

I can't think of any video games or any game in general that will fill your request if you remove the above

maybe pick up a sport instead

Well... Card games are not necessarily out. I actually loved the Etherlords game back in 2001 or so, and that game is very close to MtG. But MtG itself... I don't know, not my thing. Hearthstone however looks quite interesting. Is it also hard to master? Are there top players, popular tournaments, etc.?

RTS are not out as well, as long as they don't require large APM and memorizing builds. If there are even such, of course...

[Valeron]

hearthstone is pretty fun, that might fit your bill

one thing that I have against card games is how much luck/rng is involved with it, but if you don't mind that then that might be a good choice

[May90]

hearthstone is pretty fun, that might fit your bill

one thing that I have against card games is how much luck/rng is involved with it, but if you don't mind that then that might be a good choice

I'm OK with the luck factor, as long as it isn't too big (like heads and tails). I guess, a better player will consistently win more often than the worse player in Hearthstone, right?
Speaking of the luck factor, it seems it is also very big in MOBA games, unless you play in an arranged team. When you play in random team, even on the highest level, there is a plenty chance that someone in your team is either too bad for his rating or league and got promoted only thanks to his luck with teammates. There is a big chance that someone will take your favorite hero (in case of LoL) and you will have to settle with some hero you don't feel too comfortable with. I think, every team game is very luck-based, unless the teams are arranged.

What I like about card games (and about any "time per move" game for that matter) is that they lack that rush that is in every real-time game, being it RTS, FPS, MMO or whatever. In Starcraft 2, you have to stay 100% focused all the time, do zillions actions every second, keep track over all the map, units, bases and such. Card games are more of "Thought calmly for a minute and made decision".
Hard to say what I hate about them... But, say, Poker I could never get into. Maybe, exactly since it is too much luck-based.

I'll try Hearthstone in the nearest future. Do you have any other suggestions worth trying?

P.S. I forgot to add that I'm picking among the games that have the visible future. The games that will be still popular in 3 years or so, by the time I become very good in them. Hearthstone looks like it will live for a very-very long time and with multiple reincarnations.

[Valeron]

other card games? there is solforge which is on steam, haven't played it other than the tutorial but it seems pretty nice. Not sure how many other people are playing it. There is Infinity Wars as well, I haven't played that so can't really give you an opinion on it. And then of course Magic the gathering.

Hearthstone is probably the easiest to get into and it has Blizzard polish and ease of play that can be addicting.

[May90]

Very well, you sold me. I'll try Hearthstone on the next week. Have always been a fan of Blizzard, even though WoW didn't appeal to me, so the experience will hopefully be amazing.

[Yunru]

Battlefield sounds a good for you. Is is competitve (ladder), has simple rules (take enemy base / defend yours) and its very easy to learn.

[May90]

Battlefield sounds a good for you. Is is competitve (ladder), has simple rules (take enemy base / defend yours) and its very easy to learn.

FPS have never been my cup of tea. First of all, I'm just terribly bad at them. Then, the whole war theme is also not my first choice. Finally, I'd like something more... arcade-like? Not a simulation of a real battlefield, but something more simple.

[Blackdecker]

Street Fighter?

[Hraklea]

Magic the Gathering is ridiculously expensive, and I find Hearthstone too simple. If you're open to cardgames, I'd suggest you to try A Game of Thrones or Android Netrunner. They should be easy to find in a boardgame store.

But, in general, you want a "hard to master with an infinite room for improvement" game, but then you cried more than once that you don't want to "practice everyday" about RTS, and then you complained about how hard it is to reach chess' professional level. I mean... do you really believe you can get into the professional level of a "serious competitive scene, with pro players, guides from veterans, Youtube commentators (if possible), ladder (if possible)" game without practicing?! How naive can you possibly be?

[Noorri]

Poker. Unlimited potential for improvement, extremely simple on it's face but with unlimited depth, more guides and books then you can imagine and you can even make money playing it.

[Migey]

League of Legends is great tbh. Fits every requirement.You don't need to 'learn' everything either, I never tried but just by playing you get used to and learn everything you need. If you're looking for a game to master and get good at then I have no sympathy for you if you're not willing to put in some legwork, but with LoL you don't really have to as long as you pay attention. Also, if you play with friends, in teams, or get a good ranking then you're generally assured competent teammates.

[Toxigen]

League

Don't need to know as much as DOTA.

[kail]

Scrolls. Its a take of TCG with positioning strategy, made by Mojang.

Otherwise your list of restrictions is rather tough to go through. The only games I can think of that don't need crazy APM or reaction are card games.

No FPS, no MMO, no MOBAs, not sure if cardgames are out of the picture...Pokemon's competitive I guess (ranked stats and all).

[May90]

But, in general, you want a "hard to master with an infinite room for improvement" game, but then you cried more than once that you don't want to "practice everyday" about RTS, and then you complained about how hard it is to reach chess' professional level. I mean... do you really believe you can get into the professional level of a "serious competitive scene, with pro players, guides from veterans, Youtube commentators (if possible), ladder (if possible)" game without practicing?! How naive can you possibly be?

No, I don't mean getting into top 10 players or so. I'd like just to be improving gradually. In Starcraft 2, for example, if you haven't played for a few days for some reason, your mouse precision suffers, reaction slows down, and there is a level (I guess, somewhere in Masters) after which it's virtually impossible to improve at all playing from time to time. I guess, in, say, card games reaction, precision and such things that you need to keep "accelerated" don't matter much, it's more about deep understanding of the game mechanics.
In Chess, for example, you can skip an entire year and then, once you get back, you will play on the same level you played a year ago just after a few games. That is, ignoring Grandmaster level, where you also have to practice all the time...

Poker. Unlimited potential for improvement, extremely simple on it's face but with unlimited depth, more guides and books then you can imagine and you can even make money playing it.

I've never got into Poker always thinking it to be boring. Maybe I should try again.

League of Legends is great tbh. Fits every requirement.You don't need to 'learn' everything either, I never tried but just by playing you get used to and learn everything you need. If you're looking for a game to master and get good at then I have no sympathy for you if you're not willing to put in some legwork, but with LoL you don't really have to as long as you pay attention. Also, if you play with friends, in teams, or get a good ranking then you're generally assured competent teammates.

Well, my brother plays this game on a very serious level: not top-100, but somewhere close. He says that without knowing every ability of every hero and every item by heart you will sometimes make terrible mistakes that will cost you the games. Though, there are different opinions I guess...
I had played LoL for 3 months 4-5 games every day. I like its simplicity and, yet, complexity of strategy. My main objection against this game, however, is that it is team-based. Individual skills still matter when we are speaking about consistent results, but still I don't like being screwed by teammates from time to time, even the good once I've played with for a long time. I'm still considering this game though.

Otherwise your list of restrictions is rather tough to go through. The only games I can think of that don't need crazy APM or reaction are card games.

Well, I start thinking the same way. Card and board games seem to be the way to go. Such games as Chess, Checkers, Go and many others are out of line since they have hundreds years of history and such a tough competition that even to get into top-1000 you need decades of hard training. In Chess there are, I believe, somewhere around 50,000 Masters, and yet to get even there you have to train for many years and play countless tournaments (unless you are a genius).

So, from card games, what I'm thinking about right now are Poker and MtG-like games. I'll try Hearthstone soon and will see if it's the way to go.

[Hraklea]

I guess, in, say, card games reaction, precision and such things that you need to keep "accelerated" don't matter much, it's more about deep understanding of the game mechanics... In Chess, for example, you can skip an entire year and then, once you get back, you will play on the same level you played a year ago just after a few games.

I'm sorry, but not playing for a week won't make you a crappy player in SC2, and not playing card games for a year will make you a lot worse.
Also, remember what you said about chess? "This game is a great example of what I am NOT seeking."

What you're seeking doesn't exist.

[May90]

I'm sorry, but not playing for a week won't make you a crappy player in SC2, and not playing card games for a year will make you a lot worse.
Also, remember what you said about chess? "This game is a great example of what I am NOT seeking."

What you're seeking doesn't exist.

Not crappy... But, really, don't you agree that on a high level APM, mouse precision and such things matter very much? No matter how good you are in Starcraft, or RTS general for that matter, your mouse precision will suffer greatly if you do not practice really often. No matter how well you understand the game, you will play poorly. Just look at Sean Plott, former US champion in SC1. He has one of the deepest understanding of the game in the world, and yet his switch from a professional player to a streamer made him just a very good player, not even dreaming of playing anywhere near professional leagues. I'd like to find a game less dependent on such things as mechanics.
As for Chess, yes, I meant what I said. But the reason I played Chess for so long is that mechanically this game didn't require APM or anything like that. Of course, precision of calculations and speed of thought are still important there, but they are far less important than general strategy and understanding of the game, until Grandmasters or so.
If there only was some game like Chess, but with much simpler rules and without 500 years of theory, and, yet, popular enough to be seriously competitive...

[Herecius]

I'm pretty excited about Heroes of the Storm for a moba meeting this definition. The fact that it doesn't have items and instead has item-like buffs that you choose every time your team levels is pretty cool.

Of course, that's also quite a ways off.

- - - Updated - - -

Not crappy... But, really, don't you agree that on a high level APM, mouse precision and such things matter very much? No matter how good you are in Starcraft, or RTS general for that matter, your mouse precision will suffer greatly if you do not practice really often. No matter how well you understand the game, you will play poorly. Just look at Sean Plott, former US champion in SC1. He has one of the deepest understanding of the game in the world, and yet his switch from a professional player to a streamer made him just a very good player, not even dreaming of playing anywhere near professional leagues. I'd like to find a game less dependent on such things as mechanics.
As for Chess, yes, I meant what I said. But the reason I played Chess for so long is that mechanically this game didn't require APM or anything like that. Of course, precision of calculations and speed of thought are still important there, but they are far less important than general strategy and understanding of the game, until Grandmasters or so.
If there only was some game like Chess, but with much simpler rules and without 500 years of theory, and, yet, popular enough to be seriously competitive...

Now you're starting to ask for something that doesn't exist. Anything that can be genuinely, seriously competitive is going to have an enormous amount of theory work behind it involving the breakdown of every possible strategy in that game. If it doesn't have that major theory work behind it, then it isn't a seriously competitive game.

And you can bet that includes card games. Oh god does it include card games...

[Deleted]

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