Conviction, the death of warriors and dks

[Morally Grey Storm]

Distaste dragonslayers? why? Is it the 60+ Ilvls of surperior gear and imaginative trinkets, or is it the Exclusive mounts, ability to do everything and kill players in the game world with a flick of the wrist. Fortunately I can obtain full greavious in 2 weeks while grinding out the new PvP mount which while amazing is anything but exclusive. I love being able to have everything while you only get a small taste with none of the benefits.
Cheers friend.

you can obtain all you want, friend, but it won't help with the fact that you have no idea about pvp.
so cheers indeed.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Good thing this is a pve+pvp thread ;o)

good thing I don't give a gak about pve ;0)

I lost track in all the nonsense though. Are you trying to say Final Verdict is minor and/or not worth it in pvp?

I am not trying to say.
I stated it already clear enough that Final Verdict is not worth it as a tier 100 talents since its passive, and that all this Final Nonsence does is make Ret' mainhitter hit almost as hard as other classes' mainhitters hit NOW.

If that does not give you a hint about how godawful Ret is in pvp, then I am truly sorry for you.

[Fredzilla]

Nobody posting in this thread has a clue about lvl 100 scaling and values. The talent concept is amazing, and is the point people have been trying to make. If you want to keep arguing about lvl 90 numbers for a 100 talent in a different expansion, that's fine. Just don't go too offensive on people disagreeing with you

Arguing about 90 numbers for a 100 talent in a diff xpac plus the item squish no less

[Morally Grey Storm]

Why are you getting so offensive when anyone mentions pve then?

am not.

The talent concept is amazing

because passives are great, this talent(effect, that is) is new and exciting, sure.
this post can't hold all the sarcasms i have.

and is the point people have been trying to make

and the point I'm making is this is not worth a tier100 talent point.
spec-passive effect?
sure as all hell, please do!
but as a talent?
seriously?

If you want to keep arguing about lvl 90 numbers for a 100 talent in a different expansion, that's fine.

well I don't.

Just don't go too offensive on people disagreeing with you

I haven't even started to go offensive, sure as sure.

And I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
I'm not fine with people yelling "RET IS FINE SHUT UP FETH YOU"

[Olrox]

Maybe death knights will finally get their pure shadow damage scourge strike back too, then we can call it even. Warriors are fine regardless.

I'd rather have the one that we got in the Icecrown patch where both portions of the damage can crit; so a crit physical portion could lead to a crit shadow portion that's already elevated by the physical being a crit - that was some incredibly fun time for unholy when I was playing it.

On topic - I don't PvP so I can't speak to this talent's usability in that part of the game but I'd love to have a pure-holy TV for my paladin for PvE; if only because the concept is neat (though I suppose in the current WoW where there's no armor penetration and boss armor is largely irrelevant, the type of damage my TV is doesn't really make a shit difference other than what color the damage number is in my MSBT stream) and my paladin's the only alt I maintain (he was my first character)

[Morally Grey Storm]

What's wrong with a passive increasing your damage by lots? Would you rather have a 1% dmg increase which shoots pixie dust out of your wings during Avenging Wrath, or a huge passive damage increase (Which you aren't forced to take anyway, The Light Within may turn out to be the better talent. Nobody knows yet)?

because a boring, bland, re-used passive effect for tier100 talent is a lousy work?
Because said passive doesnt affect your gameplay and rotation in the slightest? Because it's uninspiring?
How about these reasons for starters?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I still have Paladin Rotation Criticisms but if TV went into fully Holy Damage we'd not be hindered by boss's armor and what not. Big PVE buff and PVP Buff as well but I'm not a PVPER. IMO I think a lot of the level 100 Talents aren't that interesting. TO ME anyways. I guess I expected a super Paladin attack at level 100.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The Light Within works similarly to vanilla seals (Different seals give different buffs/effects on judgment), only difference is that the seal is not consumed when judgment is cast.

Why are you not arguing about this talent as well?

Because it is not passive?
Because it actually opens up some possibilities such as seal juggling?
Because it not a fething passive?
I'm not saying LW is good either but it's still better and more interesting than Final Verdict, so just you wait till I bash it aswell.

[Fredzilla]

I hardly think ANY of the talents are interesting right now, per say, not just the 100 ones. When I take SW or LAotL or anything else, it's not really because it's fun or interesting. Just the best choice. If you're going to complain about holy TVs, or either of the other 100 talents, because they aren't interesting, might as well complain about all our other talents too.

[Lothaeryn]

^QFT. None of the talents shown should even be remotely thought of as final, and one should totally expect radical numbers alterations/changes.

even if it was the final version, my assumption is that they will add a form of Holy resist to the game after all these years to accommodate for that change.

250% holy damage on top of inqisition AND mastery buffing it? that would be insanely OP from any level range without some sort of mitigation working against it. Hell, Ret would probably be doing the most damage in boss fights if this were true.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I hardly think ANY of the talents are interesting right now, per say, not just the 100 ones. When I take SW or LAotL or anything else, it's not really because it's fun or interesting. Just the best choice. If you're going to complain about holy TVs, or either of the other 100 talents, because they aren't interesting, might as well complain about all our other talents too.

and complain I did. And I did it with logical conclusions, arguments and proofs.
yet all I got was said manthra of "RET IS FINE SHUT UP FETH YOU", a couple infractions and a few accusations of being a troll/noob/etc.
It's like those fethwipes from Open Libram on official forums, who bash on anyone who raises to voice a different opinion or to point out glaring issues.

[Fredzilla]

even if it was the final version, my assumption is that they will add a form of Holy resist to the game after all these years to accommodate for that change.

250% holy damage on top of inqisition AND mastery buffing it? that would be insanely OP from any level range without some sort of mitigation working against it. Hell, Ret would probably be doing the most damage in boss fights if this were true.

They got rid of all resists (not counting useless racials). Why would they put one back in? Especially one that never existed for players?

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and complain I did. And I did it with logical conclusions, arguments and proofs.
yet all I got was said manthra of "RET IS FINE SHUT UP FETH YOU", a couple infractions and a few accusations of being a troll/noob/etc.
It's like those fethwipes from Open Libram on official forums, who bash on anyone who raises to voice a different opinion or to point out glaring issues.

You saying holy TVs are boring has nothing to do with logic nor do you have any proof to back up said logic-less claim. It's an opinion. It has no bearing on the talent itself, just what you think of it. Your dislike of it does not and will not determine it's usefulness, no matter how hard you try.

Edit: As far as interesting goes, I always enjoyed seeing the largely inflated numbers of the holy TVs last tier. Made me feel better.

[Lothaeryn]

They got rid of all resists (not counting useless racials). Why would they put one back in? Especially one that never existed for players?

Haven't played MoP, wan't aware resists were removed entirely.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It's still a boring, bland and reused concept. So I've pretty much boiled the entire argument down to 2 things.

It's like the issue of these talents being boring, bland and resued has suddenly dissapeared after you've "boiled it down".
But it's not.

[Fredzilla]

The issue is that "boring" in and of itself is a completely subjective term that you are trying to use to dictate it's objective effectiveness (that is, math and the damage increase - which we still can't know at this point anyway).

Stop trying to mix oil and water. It's not going to happen.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You saying holy TVs are boring has nothing to do with logic nor do you have any proof to back up said logic-less claim. It's an opinion. It has no bearing on the talent itself, just what you think of it. Your dislike of it does not and will not determine it's usefulness, no matter how hard you try.

Edit: As far as interesting goes, I always enjoyed seeing the largely inflated numbers of the holy TVs last tier. Made me feel better.

I was responding to your remark about other paladin' talents, not tier100 in particular.
Some reading comprehension would be most welcome.

We could also always raise this lovely point of Ret losing a lot, lot more than two other specs with new talent point system.
Why ~50% of talents are former Ret abilities?
Why did Ret lose so much of it's shared with other spec abilities when Cata came? Why does Holy get to play with Repentance, yet Ret does not get to play with, say Denounce? Where is fairness?
Why did Ret lose all heals but Flash of Light, yet other hybrid healers specs(Enh/Ele Fecal/Boomie) did not?

[Guvguv]

No question ret performs well PVE atm

[Morally Grey Storm]

Them being boring, bland and reused are an opinion.

No.
Some people find even nose-picking to be incredibly fascinating and interesting, so figures.
I agree, each and every person has it's own merits of interesting and fun, but: is this talent bland? Yes it is, since it's just a passive which doesnt change our gameplay in the slightest.
And is this talent reused? Yes it is, we already agreed on that, don't you remember?
It's not even an opinion, it's a fact, since this talent is a reused 4pT15.
Let's call it Final 4pT15 so it's at least honest.

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The issue is that "boring" in and of itself is a completely subjective term that you are trying to use to dictate it's objective effectiveness (that is, math and the damage increase - which we still can't know at this point anyway).

Stop trying to mix oil and water. It's not going to happen.

well if you find passive, reused effect to be fun and interesting, then indeed, I have no point arguing with you anymore.
It's subjective after all, sure as sure.

[Fredzilla]

Try to tone down the insults on my ability to read and comprehend what I'm reading (which I assure you is far beyond adequate). No matter what talents you may have been talking about, your argument is the same, and has the same flaw of trying to determine the objective usefulness of a talent through subjective means (ie: your opinion that it/they is/are boring).

If they didn't reduce the amount of things we had before (especially CDs), and instead just added onto them with talents similar in base mechanics to what we have now, we would be horribly overloaded. The idea of having 5 or 6 different CDs to use is not appealing in the slightest. And "fairness" in this scenario is crap anyway. You don't need most of the spells that holy or prot might have that you don't. Unless you wanna get rid of your 2h and start SoR-ing.

Edit: The only point you don't have is trying to force subjective values on objective things. I never said it was fun. I said it was useful. You were saying it wasn't useful because it wasn't fun. There's a large difference between the two statements.

Edit2: Because I like analogies, square blocks won't go into circle holes.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're now trying to take this off topic and twist the argument to fit your logic.

Am not, was responding to another poster who accused me of something I did not , and who failed to grasp the point of my post.
Sure thing tho, the post you responded to was a bit offtopic, which I am sorry for.

Give up, this has nothing to do with the thread or conviction. If you want to discuss what I quoted, feel free to make a new thread about it. Be sure to put it in general chat as well so every other class can bring their input, because what you want to discuss now is not a ret-spesific thing.

I don't want to discuss what was already discussed.
I just made an example of what I WAS discussing back then, since the other poster made a remark of me not being crusading against ALL the boring reused talents that plague paladin talent tree.
So just lets stop with offtopics and personal bashings shall we?
Or do you want me to go offensive?