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  1. #1

    Conviction, the death of warriors and dks

    The new level 100 talent conviction chabges Templars Verdict to Final Verdict which deals 250% weapon damage as holy danage which will be buffed by mastery and inq. Pure holy damage means pure plate penatration can you say best melee in game?

  2. #2
    this talent raises a few questions.

    1st of all: whats left of physical damage Ret has if he takes said talent?
    2nd: will the physical damage debuff from judgement remain(relevant at all for ret) ?

  3. #3
    Well look at tier 15 set bonus which has a chance to make your next tv all holy damage. It is currently the best 4 piece even from tier 16 until you get heroic. Because it has such a high dps increase what matters about physical damage any ways all we really have is TV CS and auto attack.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I expect it to shift to like 50% Holy / 50% Physical. 100% Holy is way too OP in PvP

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Requite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I expect it to shift to like 50% Holy / 50% Physical. 100% Holy is way too OP in PvP
    If they do that, they may as well remove the talent.
    Great Uther's ghost, it's chasing after us! Squire, do something! Throw rocks at it! I have no plan!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Requite View Post
    If they do that, they may as well remove the talent.
    this
    if they want to keep it pure holy. they might just nef the % so instead of 250% id be like. 175% or something

  7. #7
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    1st of all: whats left of physical damage Ret has if he takes said talent?
    Auto-attacks (which isn't exactly a negligible source) and Crusader Strike. Not that physical damage really matters, in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    2nd: will the physical damage debuff from judgement remain(relevant at all for ret) ?
    It's not just the paladin's damage, it's all physical damage taken by the target. So I'm not seeing how that becomes irrelevant, regardless of how much actual physical damage is dealt by the paladin themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I expect it to shift to like 50% Holy / 50% Physical. 100% Holy is way too OP in PvP
    The whole point of the talent is that people really liked the ToT PvE set bonus, and have been requesting it be put in the to spec somehow. If it's anything less than 100% Holy damage, nobody is going to be satisfied with it.

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Invictus9001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I expect it to shift to like 50% Holy / 50% Physical. 100% Holy is way too OP in PvP
    ^QFT. None of the talents shown should even be remotely thought of as final, and one should totally expect radical numbers alterations/changes.

    #InvitedToWarlordsOfDraenorBeta

  9. #9
    Mastery dont buff it, the mastery just deal a percentage off its damage, and not just TW, many other spells too, and besides there is not many other solutions to fix TW crap dmg(pvp)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Auto-attacks (which isn't exactly a negligible source) and Crusader Strike. Not that physical damage really matters, in the long run.
    I am fearing what it will cost us in the ling run, to have so much armor-bypassing damage.
    Because it will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    It's not just the paladin's damage, it's all physical damage taken by the target. So I'm not seeing how that becomes irrelevant, regardless of how much actual physical damage is dealt by the paladin themselves.
    and said debuff is provided by at least 3 or more classes if need be.
    Which is kinda sad.
    I loved it when classes had more unique parts to them in buff/debuff department.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    The whole point of the talent is that people really liked the ToT PvE set bonus, and have been requesting it be put in the to spec somehow. If it's anything less than 100% Holy damage, nobody is going to be satisfied with it.
    it does not scream "100 tier talent" tho.
    none of 3 talents scream that for Ret, tbh.

    Spec passive?
    Feth yes!
    but a talent?
    dont make me laugh with cynism and disregard to creativity.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    I and said debuff is provided by at least 3 or more classes if need be.
    Which is kinda sad.
    I loved it when classes had more unique parts to them in buff/debuff department.
    We need Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice debuffs back.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    We need Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice debuffs back.
    One can dream, friend.
    One can dream.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Another solution if people want 100% Holy Damage is to reduce the up-front damage by some and convert that to a DoT that does not lot lose ticks if you do TV->CS->TV.

  14. #14
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    I am fearing what it will cost us in the ling run, to have so much armor-bypassing damage.
    Because it will.
    If I remember correctly, you usually look at things from a PvP perspective (correct me if I'm wrong). A lot of the comments I've read over the years talk about Ret paladins being easily kited (I barely played PvP when my account was active, so I can only base this off of what I've read). If we deal mostly Holy damage, wouldn't that mean that our time-on-target windows (which would be small due to kiting) be worth more damage?

    So the end result would leave Ret paladins as the enemy you need to kite, or they beat your face in.

    I don't know how the other classes rank in kiting ability, though. If they're so good at it that they can still contribute to the arena/BG match that's still going on while dealing with the paladin, that's more of a problem with that other class, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    it does not scream "100 tier talent" tho.
    none of 3 talents scream that for Ret, tbh.

    Spec passive?
    Feth yes!
    but a talent?
    dont make me laugh with cynism and disregard to creativity.
    If it were a spec passive, it would have to be in the form of the proc from the PvE set bonus. Having it as a full-on Holy damage nuke just because is pretty crazy. I mean, you figure you've got the damage from the ability itself (modified by Inquisition), and then the damage from our mastery (also modified by inquisition and stats). I don't remember the exact math (and I'm not digging through anaxie's thread to find it, I don't have my spelunking gear), but it scales pretty wildly with gear acquisition. It's definitely something that's worth the power of a talent.

    Is it a simple talent? Definitely. Is it potentially boring because it's simple? Yeah, I can see that. But it's definitely worth the power a level 100 talent should bring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    We need Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice debuffs back.
    Blech, no thank you. Judgement doesn't need to be three different abilities again.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    If I remember correctly, you usually look at things from a PvP perspective (correct me if I'm wrong).
    Yes I do, you are correct.
    PVE is for pus... for dragonslayers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    If we deal mostly Holy damage, wouldn't that mean that our time-on-target windows (which would be small due to kiting) be worth more damage?
    full-in holy damage would require us to lose something as a trade-off and as a means of balance.
    It's Blizzard we're talking about.
    They dont give Rets a candy without taking a finger off of Ret's hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    So the end result would leave Ret paladins as the enemy you need to kite, or they beat your face in.
    And Ret are pretty much the easyest ones to kite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    I don't know how the other classes rank in kiting ability, though. If they're so good at it that they can still contribute to the arena/BG match that's still going on while dealing with the paladin, that's more of a problem with that other class, I would think.
    problem with the paladin class it the fact that paladins require a gakking lot of talents to become even remotely close to a proper melee.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    If it were a spec passive, it would have to be in the form of the proc from the PvE set bonus. Having it as a full-on Holy damage nuke just because is pretty crazy. I mean, you figure you've got the damage from the ability itself (modified by Inquisition), and then the damage from our mastery (also modified by inquisition and stats). I don't remember the exact math (and I'm not digging through anaxie's thread to find it, I don't have my spelunking gear), but it scales pretty wildly with gear acquisition. It's definitely something that's worth the power of a talent.
    Think it through: I have Current glad weapon and almost top gear.
    I deal 25-30 non-crit TV's(HoL proc not included) atm to Warriors and Priests alike.
    TV deals close to no damage w/o cooldowns and crits.



    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Is it a simple talent? Definitely. Is it potentially boring because it's simple? Yeah, I can see that. But it's definitely worth the power a level 100 talent should bring.
    One can argue.
    But it is better than the other two, which are plain pathetic from where PVP Ret stands.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Another solution if people want 100% Holy Damage is to reduce the up-front damage by some and convert that to a DoT that does not lot lose ticks if you do TV->CS->TV.
    Like we had in Wotlk... We had a rolling dot from our different attacks (can't remember the name, Righteous Vengeance or something like that)

    Edit: Found it: http://www.wowwiki.com/Righteous_Vengeance
    Last edited by NovaIzHere; 2013-11-14 at 10:49 AM.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Strear's Avatar
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    Hi, I don't understand the real impact of Divine conviction for us as Rets in PVP.

    Could someone please give me an example ?

    Currently, Templar's Verdict does 275 % Weapon damage + 628.
    Divine conviction would do 250 % as holy damage.

    Could someone give a PVP math example to really understand the impact of the change ?

    Thanks in advance.

  18. #18
    Maybe death knights will finally get their pure shadow damage scourge strike back too, then we can call it even. Warriors are fine regardless.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Yes I do, you are correct.
    PVE is for pus... for dragonslayers.



    full-in holy damage would require us to lose something as a trade-off and as a means of balance.
    It's Blizzard we're talking about.
    They dont give Rets a candy without taking a finger off of Ret's hand.



    And Ret are pretty much the easyest ones to kite.


    problem with the paladin class it the fact that paladins require a gakking lot of talents to become even remotely close to a proper melee.




    Think it through: I have Current glad weapon and almost top gear.
    I deal 25-30 non-crit TV's(HoL proc not included) atm to Warriors and Priests alike.
    TV deals close to no damage w/o cooldowns and crits.




    One can argue.
    But it is better than the other two, which are plain pathetic from where PVP Ret stands.
    Pve or Pvp they are shitty in either. We havent had a Ret in our 25man for 5 years as melee are already behind compared to range to begin with and with Holy,Prot doing so well, they can do the utility that a Ret would do. We are only 10/14H but look at Anaxie, i dont even think he is raiding and my old friend from Eternal Reign, a former top ret, was sat for progression. It isnt just pvp.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Pve or Pvp they are shitty in either. We havent had a Ret in our 25man for 5 years as melee are already behind compared to range to begin with and with Holy,Prot doing so well, they can do the utility that a Ret would do. We are only 10/14H but look at Anaxie, i dont even think he is raiding and my old friend from Eternal Reign, a former top ret, was sat for progression. It isnt just pvp.
    well, just to be frank, I have to admit: mechanic-wise and dps-wise, Ret is in top shape compared to past 8 years of utter pathetic garbage it was.
    Number-tweaking aside, Ret is great in PVE.

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