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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Strear View Post
    Hi, I don't understand the real impact of Divine conviction for us as Rets in PVP.

    Could someone please give me an example ?

    Currently, Templar's Verdict does 275 % Weapon damage + 628.
    Divine conviction would do 250 % as holy damage.

    Could someone give a PVP math example to really understand the impact of the change ?

    Thanks in advance.
    Ok, while this looks like a nerf its a pretty substantial buff. Here are some reasons:

    1. There is no holy resistance in game, it is static the only thing that will reduce its damage is an ability that reduces damage taken via divine protection, shield wall, ice bound fortitude etc.
    2. While it doesn't say +(insert given number here) it will still have this via mastery, right now my mastery increases tv damage by 36% this will also apply to Final Verdict (Conviction talent)
    3. Inquisition increases holy damage done by 30% so for TV that 638 is holy damage so inq increases that around 212 making it hit for 750 extra holy damage. Ex. Lets take my 92k TV crit in pvp (real number) for example and make that lets say 85k crit multiply that by .3 (30%) you get 25.5k add the two together and you get 110, 500 Final Verdict damage instead of 92k.

    And these are just random numbers, however even after the nerf to the initial number you can tell it is a considerably large dps increase.

    I also need to add that I didn't factor in any armor values either as the 92k crit TV is reduced by armor stats as well. So the number above for FV is probably 5 to 10k higher now that it does pure magic damage.
    Last edited by Rennegadelawlz; 2013-11-14 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #22
    Field Marshal Strear's Avatar
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    Thanks Rennegadelawlz, it would effectively hit much harder !

  3. #23
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    Won't this go a long way to fixing TV double dipping on resil. I mean any ability that has a secondary effect calculated off the primary ability gets hit hard by resil. Made me crazy before the massive pve combustion nerf how shit combustion was as it triple dipped!

    Coming from a mages perspective, i dont get scared of rets popping wings for big TV's (granted they hurt when they crit for sure) but normally i will try to shut them down, most of the damage i take comes from ranged abilities and maybe 1 TV if they get close, im far more scared of DKs/Warrior with cds up and all the anti cc/reflects. Rets defo need this, if they are easy for me to control/kite then i should get raped if they manage to get close. Where as atm its seems i die in 3 globals to back to back Oblit/FS crits or one Bladestorm with block on cd.

    Edit: In retro spec you also bring a lot of utility to the party as well, hands are clutch game winners in 3s when used right and out right life savers and having 3 medium druation cc's on all different drs is really nice as well with the new fear talent. Guess its a trade off, if they up'd your damage too much you'd end up like warriors atm. I'm all for it tho, since i just lvl'd a ret alt to 90 and experiencing paladin for the first time in wow, and liking it
    Last edited by villie; 2013-11-15 at 07:07 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    Won't this go a long way to fixing TV double dipping on resil. I mean any ability that has a secondary effect calculated off the primary ability gets hit hard by resil. Made me crazy before the massive pve combustion nerf how shit combustion was as it triple dipped!

    Coming from a mages perspective, i dont get scared of rets popping wings for big TV's (granted they hurt when they crit for sure) but normally i will try to shut them down, most of the damage i take comes from ranged abilities and maybe 1 TV if they get close, im far more scared of DKs/Warrior with cds up and all the anti cc/reflects. Rets defo need this, if they are easy for me to control/kite then i should get raped if they manage to get close. Where as atm its seems i die in 3 globals to back to back Oblit/FS crits or one Bladestorm with block on cd.

    Edit: In retro spec you also bring a lot of utility to the party as well, hands are clutch game winners in 3s when used right and out right life savers and having 3 medium druation cc's on all different drs is really nice as well with the new fear talent. Guess its a trade off, if they up'd your damage too much you'd end up like warriors atm. I'm all for it tho, since i just lvl'd a ret alt to 90 and experiencing paladin for the first time in wow, and liking it
    Rets don't have 3 cc's.

    Also, I'd like point out that ret' utility is shared with Holy, which accidentally brings better heals, since ret' offheal is nonexistent these days due to ret being the weakest and obvious tunnel target.
    Last edited by Storm the Sorrow; 2013-11-15 at 07:42 PM.
    Sure as sure

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Rets don't have 3 cc's.
    ??? HoJ BL EisAPOV? I'm assuming you dont think rets should take anything apart from fist? I was using them to great effect with my DK mate the earlier today in arena, took fear since he was playing with asphixiate, my gear was so bad i pretty was the cc bot most of the time and did damage during wings. Worked really well, but i know what your saying was hard getting the fear off being tunnelled.

    I do understand that at high ratings things are very different, im a fire mage and breaking 2k is not easy, and i've never manage above 2.2k yet as fire only frost. I can only sympathize as also being the victim of the pain train.

    My point was Conviction looks really nice for rets and i hope it goes ahead!! But the sticking point will be you have to lose summit to gain, which i believe is your viewpoint too?

    Apologies for any mistakes i make about the class, i'm new to it, always thought paladin forums would be more approachable tho?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    ??? HoJ BL EisAPOV? I'm assuming you dont think rets should take anything apart from fist? I was using them to great effect with my DK mate the earlier today in arena, took fear since he was playing with asphixiate, my gear was so bad i pretty was the cc bot most of the time and did damage during wings. Worked really well, but i know what your saying was hard getting the fear off being tunnelled.

    I do understand that at high ratings things are very different, im a fire mage and breaking 2k is not easy, and i've never manage above 2.2k yet as fire only frost. I can only sympathize as also being the victim of the pain train.

    My point was Conviction looks really nice for rets and i hope it goes ahead!! But the sticking point will be you have to lose summit to gain, which i believe is your viewpoint too?

    Apologies for any mistakes i make about the class, i'm new to it, always thought paladin forums would be more approachable tho?
    It's pretty easy to cast fears as ret in actually meaningful brackets on actually high ratings, sure as sure.



    And, no more giving up something. Enough is enough.
    Last edited by Storm the Sorrow; 2013-11-15 at 08:59 PM.
    Sure as sure

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    Mastery dont buff it, the mastery just deal a percentage off its damage, and not just TW, many other spells too, and besides there is not many other solutions to fix TW crap dmg(pvp)
    Sigh..

    Holy TV after inquistion was roughly a 120% buff to the base damage so 250% *2.25.

    Mastery therefore will deal MEGA damage and since HoL is increased off Inq it will double dip and increase itself again.

    If our FINAL tier bonus would of been Holy TVS I would be doing 1.2 Million Crits with thoks and somewhere along the lines of 1.5 Mil Hand of lights with 80% mastery.

    Yes Holy TV strikes + our mastery is retarded.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by villie View Post
    Won't this go a long way to fixing TV double dipping on resil. I mean any ability that has a secondary effect calculated off the primary ability gets hit hard by resil. Made me crazy before the massive pve combustion nerf how shit combustion was as it triple dipped!

    Coming from a mages perspective, i dont get scared of rets popping wings for big TV's (granted they hurt when they crit for sure) but normally i will try to shut them down, most of the damage i take comes from ranged abilities and maybe 1 TV if they get close, im far more scared of DKs/Warrior with cds up and all the anti cc/reflects. Rets defo need this, if they are easy for me to control/kite then i should get raped if they manage to get close. Where as atm its seems i die in 3 globals to back to back Oblit/FS crits or one Bladestorm with block on cd.

    Edit: In retro spec you also bring a lot of utility to the party as well, hands are clutch game winners in 3s when used right and out right life savers and having 3 medium druation cc's on all different drs is really nice as well with the new fear talent. Guess its a trade off, if they up'd your damage too much you'd end up like warriors atm. I'm all for it tho, since i just lvl'd a ret alt to 90 and experiencing paladin for the first time in wow, and liking it
    Correct % damage mods increase /decrease hit ret harder then any class because ALOT of our attacks are split into primary and secondary damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Pve or Pvp they are shitty in either. We havent had a Ret in our 25man for 5 years as melee are already behind compared to range to begin with and with Holy,Prot doing so well, they can do the utility that a Ret would do. We are only 10/14H but look at Anaxie, i dont even think he is raiding and my old friend from Eternal Reign, a former top ret, was sat for progression. It isnt just pvp.
    What, Ret is fine. I just have bad trinket drop RNG and coins. I'm one of the strongest dps on Single target / Huge add fights. This is with a 30K dps handicap from having a pathetic trinket like skeers where the proc is pretty much unnoticeable.

    If I'm sitting I assure you. It's because I want to sit / Don't give a shit.

    The problem with ret is so much quantity not enough quality on the playerbase.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-11-16 at 12:28 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    The problem with ret is so much quantity not enough quality on the playerbase.
    This, ret hasn't been in a better spot than it is the last 2 tiers.

    Our guild used 1 ret for every progression boss this tier and 2 on several of the bosses. In fact the only reason we didn't use 2 ret paladins is because both me and ostwind were fairly new to the guild (I joined during T14 farm, he joined during T15 farm) so they didn't know how we'd perform during progress. As soon as they saw how rets performed, we dumped pretty much majority of week 2 gear into ostwind for the last 3 bosses.

    The problem with the retribution class is not the quality of the spec, but the quality of the players. There's far less good ret paladins than there are other classes/specs. Retribution takes alot of minmaxing and on-the-fly decisions which isn't everyone's prefered style.

    It doesn't help that to play a ret at a high level doesn't only require good dps, but actively knowing fight mechanics a dps normally wouldn't need to worry about (Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, Emancipate, Hand of Sac, Purity, List goes on and on and on). It's alot to take on compared to, say, learning a warlock or a rogue.



    Gone too off topic from the thread though. I doubt Conviction will kill dks and warriors chances of a spot. They will see the strength of this during 6.0 beta and tune accordingly (and honestly, we have no idea about what class changes may happen. Even if they said major changes wont happen, their definition of major could be MoP Warlock revamp and minor could be, say, changing your mastery)

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by etsumii92 View Post
    This, ret hasn't been in a better spot than it is the last 2 tiers.
    PVe-wise, yes.
    PVP-wise, no.
    and as far as I recall, this thread is about PVP.

    so no, rets are still neck-deep in it.
    we've no actual gap closer, our selfdefence leaves much to wish for, our utility is brough by Holy(who accidentally brings better heals and better CC chains), and there is no reason to bring such an easy tunneled one-trick pony to a comp.
    Sure as sure

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    PVe-wise, yes.
    PVP-wise, no.
    and as far as I recall, this thread is about PVP.

    so no, rets are still neck-deep in it.
    we've no actual gap closer, our selfdefence leaves much to wish for, our utility is brough by Holy(who accidentally brings better heals and better CC chains), and there is no reason to bring such an easy tunneled one-trick pony to a comp.
    Sounds just exactly like the reason above Quantity > Quality.

    Bad rep spec from too many terrible players.

    Oh and this thread will be about whatever I please. Don't make me turn this bitch into a Spiderman thread.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Sounds just exactly like the reason above Quantity > Quality.
    orly?
    I would say the reason is arrogance > levelheadedness.
    All the arrogant fethers who cluck "RET IS FINE SHUT UP FETH YOU" any time someone actually tries to raise a point.

    Oh and this thread will be about whatever I please. Don't make me turn this bitch into a Spiderman thread.
    it's on like Donkey Kong, bring it on.
    Sure as sure

  12. #32
    Obviously none of the talents are final (well, shouldn't be considered final anyway) but the prospect of holy TV excites me very much.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    this talent raises a few questions.

    1st of all: whats left of physical damage Ret has if he takes said talent?
    2nd: will the physical damage debuff from judgement remain(relevant at all for ret) ?
    The physical damage will still be around from white hits. Which is a huge portion of damage.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    PVe-wise, yes.
    PVP-wise, no.
    and as far as I recall, this thread is about PVP.
    This thread is about Conviction, not what you want it to be about. I gave my perspective of ret in current PvE and my opinion about the beta.

  15. #35
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    Ice Lance does pure magic damage and crits for 20% of my health right now... so I doubt Conviction is going to change much lol.
    You, you'll regret what you have done this day, I will make you regret ever being born, you're going to wish you never left your mother's womb, where it was warm and safe and wet, I am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainbow!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ep65rr-9qjQ Full Pilot Episode! Best thing to come out of Adult Swim!

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by etsumii92 View Post
    This thread is about Conviction, not what you want it to be about. I gave my perspective of ret in current PvE and my opinion about the beta.
    this thread is about PVP and Ret, not what you want it to be about.
    I give you the choice to snap out of it and get back to reality.
    Sure as sure

  17. #37
    I like both the PVE and PVP talk in my thread, and thanks Anaxie, for stopping by. No offense to you other rets in here, i have learned most by myself and I play ret extremely well and competitive but if it weren't for Anaxies Numbers I'd know less.

    Main Point of this is PvP because I would be insane to say that DK/War would be dead in PvP. Having a Holy TV is a massive buff in PvP. Somethings to take from this thread right now (not ending it btw just catching people up)

    1. Conviction Talent making Templar's Verdict to Final Verdict. Is a huge buff to our damage.
    2. This is not a Final Talent, Blizz has an entire year to build and change all these new and currently live talents. It will happen whether we like it or not.
    3. Quantity > Quality. Its because of the Symbol a Paladin Stands for. A bad ret is God awful, when a bad mage can still be mediocre.

    TV when it crits is way more than Ice Lance by an Long shot. Ice Lance isn't that strong unless you have 5 shards up.
    Conviction will make TV make Ice Lance look like a fucking DoT.
    The Fact is DK's and Warriors do good damage. But as PvP as a whole. Rets probably sit in a 3 way tie of Enhance/Ret/Rogue in second place. Warriors are definitely the FotM Class atm moment. Fact is we won't know who sits on top in 6.0 we might be terrible we might be Tier 1. Conviction opens up ideas for Ret DPS in pvp and pve in 6.0. I love all the comments on my thread thank you again. Keep it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Oh and this thread will be about whatever I please. Don't make me turn this bitch into a Spiderman thread.
    Thanks Anaxie, I love Spider-Man. My favorite Marvel Hero. However try not to go too off topic. :P Unless you wanna argue about who is better Venom or Carnage. XD

    Just messing, sorry for contributing to my own thread change. Lawlz

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    I like both the PVE and PVP talk in my thread
    why would you make a PVP-related name then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    Having a Holy TV is a massive buff in PvP. Somethings to take from this thread right now (not ending it btw just catching people up)
    No it's not.

    Even if we had a one-shot ability on 10 second cd, it wouldnt help the fact that we suck in self-healing, self-defence, proper melee tools, and unique utility departments.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    1. Conviction Talent making Templar's Verdict to Final Verdict. Is a huge buff to our damage.
    2. This is not a Final Talent, Blizz has an entire year to build and change all these new and currently live talents. It will happen whether we like it or not.
    3. Quantity > Quality. Its because of the Symbol a Paladin Stands for. A bad ret is God awful, when a bad mage can still be mediocre.
    1. No it's not.
    2. Sure as sure it's not. There are myriads of way for Blizz to screw us over yet again.
    3. arrogance >levelheadedness, because feth common sense and logic, that's why


    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    TV when it crits is way more than Ice Lance by an Long shot.
    yeah, those 50k crits, with a ~20% chance to crit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    Conviction will make TV make Ice Lance look like a fucking DoT.
    No it will not, you're exxagerating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    The Fact is DK's and Warriors do good damage. But as PvP as a whole. Rets probably sit in a 3 way tie of Enhance/Ret/Rogue in second place.
    I'm fairly certain Fecal druids would feel insulted upon hearing this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    Fact is we won't know who sits on top in 6.0 we might be terrible we might be Tier 1.
    if you'd applied some common sense, you'd know that rets are never tier 1, lest Blizz is daring a disaster(remember pre-WotLK).
    Sure as sure

  19. #39
    Granted this talent does look great but has any one math out the other talent where we get +10% AP when we judge?

    +10% Ap which would increase the damage of all our attacks VS boosting the dmg of one attack

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    this thread is about PVP and Ret, not what you want it to be about. I give you the choice to snap out of it and get back to reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennegadelawlz View Post
    I like both the PVE and PVP talk in my thread
    That escalated quickly ;o)


    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodrayne of Lothar View Post
    Granted this talent does look great but has any one math out the other talent where we get +10% AP when we judge? +10% Ap which would increase the damage of all our attacks VS boosting the dmg of one attack
    No point, beta isn't even here and we know nothing about how our stats are at lvl 100.

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