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  1. #1

    Which spec for SoO HM at (pretty) High iLvl

    Hi !

    I'm sorry if a similar thread already exists, but I searched a bit, and didn't found it.
    With my guild we're actually facing Garrosh in Normal difficulty and once he'll be dead, we'll begin HM slowly.
    But now I've got around 560 iLvl with 3/4 T16 and I'm still in Arcane, and I don't know if I should change my spec for Higher dps or for some fights in HM, because some of my guildmates are already doing much more dps than me (Palret, Warrior, Warlock, Hunter, Shaman) even if we are almost at the same iLvl.
    (My Armory: /character/la-croisade-ecarlate/Lucialuna/simple )
    Is there something wrong with arcane that I can't dps that much, Or is there something wrong with me ?

    Thanks for answering.

    (P.S: If you need more information, feel free to ask me)

  2. #2
    Hi.

    Your ilvl might be the same as your fellow raid members, but it's what item you have at a high ilvl that counts. You still have a flexible weapon, the 522 valor trinket, and no 4set, which will all be a factor in you having lower DPS. If you can get a new weapon, 4set and a better second trinket you should notice a big difference.

    As for switching specs, you don't want to switch to fire unless you have 4set and plenty of crit, or you'll find it underperforms.

  3. #3
    I checked your logs http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...?s=4792&e=5077 and there a many things that you could improve:

    - bomb uptime is only 48.3% which is really low, it should be more than 90%
    - you didn't pre pot and didn't use a pot later in the fight either
    - you used Alter Time, Arcane Power and Mirror images only ONCE during the whole fight

    If you want to stay arcane then check out the arcane mage guide here on mmo-champ and try to be better with your cooldown usage and bomb tracking. Other than that, I think frost would be great with your current gear or once you have the 4-piece set bonus and over 40% crit, then fire becomes really strong as well.
    Last edited by Raggamasta; 2013-11-08 at 03:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Thank you for the quick answer.

    About the Weapon and the trinket, (and also the 4rth t16) do you think I can get a significant upgrade in Raid Finder or Flex ? Or can I just have it in normal/hero ?
    And also for the switching spec, Should I start searching for "Fire" stuff with lot of crit now ? And what about Frost spec ?
    Last question; is MrRobot still good at this Level, or is it just good when you're a bit more "Casual" ?

    To Raggamasta:
    I knew there was something wrong about me too.
    In the log you watch for example, if LB uptime were 90%, Which pourcentage of global dps should it be ?
    And for the pots and CD, I don't really know when to use it, because if the BL is in less than 3 min, I don't want to use it, and I'm also a bit unlucky sometimes when I don't have Procs for Proj, so I have to wait (sometimes pretty long). Do you have some advices about that or Add-Ons that can help me ?
    Last edited by Lucialuna; 2013-11-08 at 03:40 PM.

  5. #5
    Weak Auras 2 for trinket & enchant procs
    Combustion helper or Scorchio to track bombs

    There are other add ons out there but I mainly use these.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucialuna View Post
    Thank you for the quick answer.

    About the Weapon and the trinket, (and also the 4rth t16) do you think I can get a significant upgrade in Raid Finder or Flex ? Or can I just have it in normal/hero ?
    And also for the switching spec, Should I start searching for "Fire" stuff with lot of crit now ? And what about Frost spec ?
    Last question; is MrRobot still good at this Level, or is it just good when you're a bit more "Casual" ?

    To Raggamasta:
    I knew there was something wrong about me too.
    In the log you watch for example, if LB uptime were 90%, Which pourcentage of global dps should it be ?
    And for the pots and CD, I don't really know when to use it, because if the BL is in less than 3 min, I don't want to use it, and I'm also a bit unlucky sometimes when I don't have Procs for Proj, so I have to wait (sometimes pretty long). Do you have some advices about that or Add-Ons that can help me ?
    Mr. Robot is a fine resources as long as you set the stat weights correctly. Not so important for Fire since they are basic, but since there are a couple arcane builds you'll want to make sure they are set appropriately.

    Your bomb damage is going to depend on the fight. As arcane, sometimes it'll be your highest damage spell (on stuff like Galakras). It shouldn't be so high on a fight like Iron Jugg or Malkorok though since those are primarily single target fights. This can be extended to Dark Shamans as well if you do the 3 tank strat since that turns it into what is essentially a single target fight.

    As for your trinkets, you will find a significant upgrade with the Flex multistrike trinket (off Dark Shamans) or the BBoY (off Garrosh). Only weapon upgrades will come from Normal / Heroic.

    I'm not sure how amazing 4pc is for arcane. I didn't fuck around enough with it to see - maybe Voltaa has done more work on it since I last checked the arcane PvE thread and figured out how essential it is - if it is at all. For fire though it's pretty manditory. If you were going to go fire I'd replace either your legs or shoulders for normal tier since both shoulder/legs are BiS tier slots (chest is the off set you go for).

    If you want my opinion, I think Fire is the best for progressing in Heroic. Arcane/Fire do similar DPS depending on the fight, but the range of mobility you get from Fire via. Scorch is amazing. It's also just less shit to pay attention to, allowing you to focus on perfect mechanics execution. I played Fire all through ToT and normal SoO and then tried Arcane and found it to be seriously restricting. This lead to me focusing more on my positioning then on incoming boss abilities, which is bad. As a disclaimer, I also had very little Arcane experience. I'm sure for people like Voltaa this isn't really an issue since RoP is prolly second nature to him by now.

    I personally wouldn't play Frost.

    On your CD usage - If you're delaying them so long that you end up missing an entire CD worth of them (i.e. you could have gotten 4 but you sat on them so long you only got 3 uses) then you are waiting too long. Proper tracking of your procs will help you get the best use out of these in a timely manner.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-11-08 at 04:49 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I personally wouldn't play Frost.
    Reading your name + this comment of yours just makes me laugh XD

    In all honesty, OP, I've actually found my Frost DPS to be noticeably higher than my Arcane DPS despite, like, everyone claiming Arcane to be higher, and I've tried everything I could to improve it. I'd personally say play what you enjoy the most unless you're required of a certain "role" because you'll most likely perform best at whichever spec you enjoy the most, and all 3 have never been closer in any other tier.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Reading your name + this comment of yours just makes me laugh XD

    In all honesty, OP, I've actually found my Frost DPS to be noticeably higher than my Arcane DPS despite, like, everyone claiming Arcane to be higher, and I've tried everything I could to improve it. I'd personally say play what you enjoy the most unless you're required of a certain "role" because you'll most likely perform best at whichever spec you enjoy the most, and all 3 have never been closer in any other tier.
    I second that comment. Switching to frost increased my DPS by a lot. (10K-50K) depending of the fight. I might be more comfortable as frost than arcane i guess. Trying fire again, just to compare.
    Last edited by Moronordon; 2013-11-08 at 05:26 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Reading your name + this comment of yours just makes me laugh XD

    In all honesty, OP, I've actually found my Frost DPS to be noticeably higher than my Arcane DPS despite, like, everyone claiming Arcane to be higher, and I've tried everything I could to improve it. I'd personally say play what you enjoy the most unless you're required of a certain "role" because you'll most likely perform best at whichever spec you enjoy the most, and all 3 have never been closer in any other tier.
    It's because Arcane is significantly harder to play, especially in a heroic environment, than frost. Going from Fire/Frost where you have tons of freedom of motion to arcane, where you are confined into a box you have to manage, is probably one of the hardest things a DPS class can be asked to do.

    Arcane is better - If you are good at it. I sure as hell am not right now. It'd prolly take me 2-3weeks more weeks of solid practice to get a feel for it and for it to flow like fire does for me right now. It's why I recommended fire. It's better DPS than frost and not terribly difficult.

    It's pretty ridiculous to go from playing frost full time to arcane, trying it out for a raid or two, sucking, and concluding frost is just better for you. Is it really, or did you just not give the proper time to learn how to play arcane as well as you played frost?
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-11-08 at 06:28 PM.

  10. #10
    So, you said that Fire should be pretty good right ? Until when ? Even when I'll be full BiS ?
    And I asked MrRobot and he said that I have a lot of good pieces (I excluded Heroic and Warforged items except Ordos) and If I go for reforge and others gems/enchants I'll have 40% crit.
    Then, Should I go for Fire right now ? Or when I'll have my 4rth T16 ? Or Later with more crit ?

    Thx again for your answers guys.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucialuna View Post
    So, you said that Fire should be pretty good right ? Until when ? Even when I'll be full BiS ?
    And I asked MrRobot and he said that I have a lot of good pieces (I excluded Heroic and Warforged items except Ordos) and If I go for reforge and others gems/enchants I'll have 40% crit.
    Then, Should I go for Fire right now ? Or when I'll have my 4rth T16 ? Or Later with more crit ?

    Thx again for your answers guys.
    I don't think fire is ever bad. A quick look through raidbots shows arcane as actually being higher on damn near every fight, but we'll see how that lasts as the data from pre-arcane nerf sets in and as people get more gear and closer to full BiS. Maybe I'll just have to switch to arcane as my gear improves. Hm.

    If you're in SoO heroics you probably have enough crit to play fire. Just get the 4pc and you can switch. But if you already have a lot of experience playing arcane, why not just stick with it, get better, and not even worry about re-tooling yourself? Unless you don't think you can improve as arcane anymore. Then by all means switch to the easier spec.

    Someone posted a bit earlier up about your current mage play which I neglected to read before. Switching to fire will not solve your DPS problems, hell with a low bomb uptime it'll probably make them worse due to low pyromaniac uptimes resulting from that. So if you do switch, don't expect any magical increase until you tighten up your basic mage play.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-11-08 at 07:33 PM.

  12. #12
    The problem isn't your spec, you need to master the basics first.

    ~ Get more comfortable playing arcane / frost / fire ( whichever you want to play, I'd recommend arcane or fire, whichever your gear is optimized for )
    ~ Improve your bomb uptimes
    ~ Track your procs to get better damage out of snapshotting your bombs
    ~ Minimize your movement to maximize your damage.
    ~ Use AMR ( ask mr robot ) instead of randomly reforging shit.
    ~ Always prepot and flask / food buff.

  13. #13
    Lucialuna just go frost and watch your dps improve tenfold.

  14. #14
    Fire and Frost is easier to maximize damage with, especially Frost as it's a lot less RNG and doesn't require any ramp-up. Plus Frost and Fire are movement-friendly, reactive and allow focusing on boss mechanics. You will likely do similar overall damage across all specs if you play them good. Choose the one you'll be comfortable with and will be able to master.

    As Frost you need to do basic stuff like manage bomb uptimes, catch good Alter Time opportunities, plan when to use Frozen Orb, know which adds can be Deep Frozen and Elemental Freeze'd. Basic stuff. As a bonus you have instant add burst with no ramp up and powerful 2 target cleave. If you're not sure about Arcane - your gear will allow easy transition to Frost, which is very good for various additional tasks - priority adds killing, AOE'ing down with Orb, hacking at Nazgrim in defensive stance with elemental, etc. Also it's the easiest (and subjectively the most fun) mage spec to perform well with, plus you don't really need 4pc set bonus and can grab heroic offset pieces right away.

    As Fire you watch bomb uptimes very closely due to Pyromaniac, especially on non-stacked multitarget, seek opportunities for proper Combustion set-ups, which will preferrably also allow the Combustion dot run its full course and/or be spread to additional targets. Basically you try to maximize Combustion effectiveness every 1.5 min and have a ramp-up rotation otherwise - you try to cast instant Pyros with Fireball when you already have Hot Streak + Heating Up buffs. It makes high priority target switching (those that won't live long) a little problematic if RNG isn't in your favor. Medium free 3-4 target cleave and unlimited movement as a bonus. If your mind is set more towards the future and potential damage - try Fire, it's very gear-dependant and scales amazingly with luck and gear (get 4pc ASAP) and will probably outperform Frost and maybe even Arcane at BiS (but that's irrelevant for progression). As Fire you'll have to make sure Pyromaniac is always applied and get used to setting up Combustions. You don't actually do much between Combustions, the whole rotation is easily auto-piloted, so you can 100% focus on boss mechanics and move any time you want with Scorch, which allows you to feel comfortable while still learning the fights and performing various additional tasks afterwards.

    As Arcane you watch your mana, watch stacks, procs and procs' procs (4pc tier bonus) closely, plan all your movement ahead in order to minimize it. You have all the tools to perform exceptionally well - your bombs do great damage, your AOE does great damage, your burst is great, your sustain is great - you just have to stand still, which is a problem. Arcane Barrage's awesome animation, over the top multitarget damage and exceptional single target damage are your free bonuses. If you like Arcane playstyle and can work around movement restrictions while also executing boss mechanics (or if your raid leader allows you to ignore them to some extent) - stay Arcane, it's a highly versatile spec with very high dps - at your ilvl and at BiS. Just get that 4pc bonus, it's essential.


    /wall of text crits you for 999k damage
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-11-09 at 09:56 AM.

  15. #15
    Thanks for all your advices (and also for the 999k damage ^^).
    Few more questions:

    -Which spec can do the best dps in the fights ? Because I think that If I change now for the best spec (or if I stay in arcane), I should be able to enter in a "really serious mode" and train myself a lot to improve everything.
    If you also can explain me which spec is the best and why, because some people here just say "Frost is the best" or "Just take Fire" and I don't have any proof of what they're saying. Like having some "Realistic dps ranking by spec on SoO fights with 560iLvl stuff/Heroïc stuff/BiS" or something like that.
    -Aren't there some fights that Arcane can't deal with because of some "moving phases" that can't be avoided (For example: Dark Shamans, Nazgrim with the adds, Malkorok with the "void zones") or do you have some tips for those fights that lets you max dps with only few movements ? (considering that I prefer to help with boss mechanics than dps: like going on bombs with invisibility if one can't be taken by the tank on the Iron Juggernaut, or going on the void zones on Malkorok and more ...)
    -Should I consider having 2 differents specs and do 2 differents stuffs in order to be the best on each fight ? In that case, which specs should I take ?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucialuna View Post
    Thanks for all your advices (and also for the 999k damage ^^).
    Few more questions:

    -Which spec can do the best dps in the fights ? Because I think that If I change now for the best spec (or if I stay in arcane), I should be able to enter in a "really serious mode" and train myself a lot to improve everything.
    If you also can explain me which spec is the best and why, because some people here just say "Frost is the best" or "Just take Fire" and I don't have any proof of what they're saying. Like having some "Realistic dps ranking by spec on SoO fights with 560iLvl stuff/Heroïc stuff/BiS" or something like that.
    -Aren't there some fights that Arcane can't deal with because of some "moving phases" that can't be avoided (For example: Dark Shamans, Nazgrim with the adds, Malkorok with the "void zones") or do you have some tips for those fights that lets you max dps with only few movements ? (considering that I prefer to help with boss mechanics than dps: like going on bombs with invisibility if one can't be taken by the tank on the Iron Juggernaut, or going on the void zones on Malkorok and more ...)
    -Should I consider having 2 differents specs and do 2 differents stuffs in order to be the best on each fight ? In that case, which specs should I take ?
    Dude you need to figure some shit out for yourself. Stop relying on other peoples opinions and go find what works for you.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Dude you need to figure some shit out for yourself. Stop relying on other peoples opinions and go find what works for you.
    Stop being an ass - Did you really think your post was adding anything here?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucialuna View Post
    Thanks for all your advices (and also for the 999k damage ^^).
    Few more questions:

    -Which spec can do the best dps in the fights ? Because I think that If I change now for the best spec (or if I stay in arcane), I should be able to enter in a "really serious mode" and train myself a lot to improve everything.
    If you also can explain me which spec is the best and why, because some people here just say "Frost is the best" or "Just take Fire" and I don't have any proof of what they're saying. Like having some "Realistic dps ranking by spec on SoO fights with 560iLvl stuff/Heroïc stuff/BiS" or something like that.
    -Aren't there some fights that Arcane can't deal with because of some "moving phases" that can't be avoided (For example: Dark Shamans, Nazgrim with the adds, Malkorok with the "void zones") or do you have some tips for those fights that lets you max dps with only few movements ? (considering that I prefer to help with boss mechanics than dps: like going on bombs with invisibility if one can't be taken by the tank on the Iron Juggernaut, or going on the void zones on Malkorok and more ...)
    -Should I consider having 2 differents specs and do 2 differents stuffs in order to be the best on each fight ? In that case, which specs should I take ?
    If you are going to commit yourself to perfecting your play there is no reason to switch from arcane - it's average top end is a good bit higher than fire, and way way beyond frost. Just understand you are submitting yourself to one of the hardest specs in the game to play optimally. if you want an easier route, go fire.

    I talked about this up above, but fire is great for it's competitive numbers and superior mobility. Arcane has restricted mobility and higher numbers if you play it well. Frost is currently lower than the other two by a good margin and I wouldn't consider it for serious raiding; although others here disagree - that's their prerogative. But the parses don't lie - frost is consistently beaten by fire and arcane.

    If you want proof you can look at top parses and compare them. You can also just find a random good frost mage and compare them to a good fire mage of equal ilvl/gear in WoL. I've done this a few times and found that fire either wins by a wide margin, or pulls ahead by ~10k DPS. Didn't see frost ever beating fire.

    Dark shamans is actually a really easy fight for arcane if you use the 3 tank strat. Smart placing of runes and use of blink minimizes your movement. Same with nazgrim. I don't think there are any fights that arcane can't deal with atm if you are good at using ice flows and preemptive rune placement.

    You can't really have fire/arcane as two main specs unless you have two different sets of gear gemmed/reforged differently since they use completely different stat weights. You can go arcane/frost and use the hybrid haste/mastery build, which works well for both.

  18. #18
    Again Kenbud misses the point of a discussion forum. Ah well...

    OP, I have been playing frost and gemming/forging none of the three ways presented in the Frost guide post Akraen put up, and I still do solid damage. Katmage actually hit on a good couple of points, and others have mentioned that you will probably do better with a spec you are comfortable playing and enjoy rather than trying to shoehorn yourself into a playstyle you might not like.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucialuna View Post
    So, you said that Fire should be pretty good right ? Until when ? Even when I'll be full BiS ?
    And I asked MrRobot and he said that I have a lot of good pieces (I excluded Heroic and Warforged items except Ordos) and If I go for reforge and others gems/enchants I'll have 40% crit.
    Then, Should I go for Fire right now ? Or when I'll have my 4rth T16 ? Or Later with more crit ?

    Thx again for your answers guys.
    The last logs I checked for Vykina when he was sitting at 574 ilevel he was almost exclusively fire. Fire also has the advantage of being much more highly mobile than arcane.

    Whether you stay arcane or go fire depends wholly on your ability to deal with RoP. If you find your uptime on RoP is anything under 85% consistently, then you are going to do way way better as fire. If you can find a way to keep your RoP uptime north of 90%, then arcane will beat fire on most fights up until that 575-ish ilevel, where they will be pretty much even (possibly a bit higher with fire).

    So really, just check your RoP skill. If it's good to excellent, I'd stick with arcane. If it isn't, go fire.

  20. #20
    If you're going to be seriously moving into Heroics then I'd recommend Fire, the ability to move and DPS with Scorch is amazing for learning fights. Where you don't have to move (i.e Normals) or you know the fights well enough to predict movement then the DPS loss from movement can be minimised but when you're first learning them Fire is amazing. Not to mention that Fire is very strong on every fight in SoO, only one I'd consider Arcane or Frost for would be Immerseus (maybe Galakras and Spoils if your groups cleave is lacking) but that fight is already a joke.

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