Blizzards response on number 20 for Mythic

[Xjev]

Not on frontpage yet, so here we go:

(Source, check blue tracker!)

Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).

We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.

We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.

I think it makes a lot of sense, and was a brave move from Blizzard.

[Xeones]

People know this, there is just a few people making a big stink.

[Deleted]

Except players simply didn't get benched till gquit when 25 mans transitioned to 10. Many actually quit during the long end patches (ICC and DS) and when the next expansion came, you didn't have nearly enough active players left in guild to run 25 man. Then you had the choice to either run 10 man or recruit 10-15 people.

[Blueobelisk]

I thought the post was excellent.

[Vereesa]

Not on frontpage yet, so here we go:

(Source, check blue tracker!)

...when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.

I think it makes a lot of sense, and was a brave move from Blizzard.

Bolded part is what matters here. I doubt people will even remember this going into T18 next expansion.

[Deja Thoris]

Yeah, bringing a priest to mass dispel the shield off meng the demented or a warrior to shattering throw it is compelling and cutting edge gameplay.

Having dbm scream "spellsteal now" or "BoP" x with a debuff now will really add another level of complexity and excitement to encounters.


That post is just them covering their behinds to try to calm the shitstorm they made. They are of course well within their rights to make that shitstorm but *shrug*, if you get excited by those examples then meh.

[Alzu]

It's good of them to have made this change. That post just made me respect their thought processes behind raid and encounter design even more.

[shaak]

Yeah, bringing a priest to mass dispel the shield off meng the demented or a warrior to shattering throw it is compelling and cutting edge gameplay.

Having dbm scream "spellsteal now" or "BoP" x with a debuff now will really add another level of complexity and excitement to encounters.

That post is just them covering their behinds to try to calm the shitstorm they made. They are of course well within their rights to make that shitstorm but *shrug*, if you get excited by those examples then meh.

Oh shut up, if you don't like what Blizzard is doing to improve their game, leave. Nobody likes a whinger.

[theburned]

Yeah, bringing a priest to mass dispel the shield off meng the demented or a warrior to shattering throw it is compelling and cutting edge gameplay.

Having dbm scream "spellsteal now" or "BoP" x with a debuff now will really add another level of complexity and excitement to encounters.


That post is just them covering their behinds to try to calm the shitstorm they made. They are of course well within their rights to make that shitstorm but *shrug*, if you get excited by those examples then meh.

I actually liked the razuvious encounter purely because it gave me a spot into naxx 25's even when I was new at the game, I enjoyed the fight too. (though stuff like this would give blizzard more fun stuff to do as tanks if they want to utilize it, and I think they've realised that tanking has started to get boring from just swapping debuffs all the time, active mitigation has helped a little, but they still need fun stuff to do, e.g. painting on twins. Having encounters where the warlock enslaves a demon and uses it to tank while the actual tank goes into some realm and does a small gauntlet would be just the kind of variation raids need.
Though spellsteal mechanics has always been on boss fights, just not all of them, there is at least a couple on spoils, so meh, just differs the decent players from the bad ones.

[Durandro]

Also means they can add in mechanics that don't punish melee dps, add in kiting mechanics (since its easy to not have a class capable of kiting multiple adds in a 10 man group), potentially have three tank fights (the 3rd tank could be, as mentioned before, a Mage or Warlock depending on the encounter, or maybe even a Rogue that needs to use its tools to stay alive) and combat class stacking issues more effectively (idea off the top of my head having a 'cap' to the amount of a certain spell school an enemy can take in a certain time frame before it becomes immune for a few seconds).

Not to mention they can finally design encounter rooms around raid sizes. Spreading out in 25 man was always a pain in the ass.

[Fanatik]

What they really should do is just make a patch 5.5 that brings flexible raids to normal and heroic SoO so 10 mans can begin the process of scaling to 20+.

[Deja Thoris]

Oh shut up, if you don't like what Blizzard is doing to improve their game, leave. Nobody likes a whinger.

I'm not whinging, I'm stating my opinion. Crawl back under the bridge.

I actually liked the razuvious encounter purely because it gave me a spot into naxx 25's even when I was new at the game,

Its good that it got you a look-in. On the other hand, it meant your raid team had to bring the class and not the player, that fundamentally flawed to me.

[Safyra]

Honestly, as a bif fan of this game and raider since the begining, i am very excited with changes blizz made recently. Raid difficulty increased dramaticly from vanilla/tbc. Just as they stated in this paragraph we miss some sort of fun in some encounter with various classes. (like lock tanking Illidan demon form)

[brunnor]

While I like the idea of 20mans, I wish they'd keep things at 25man so there is no new tuning problems that arise. They have their basic sense of how 25man raids work already with adds and stuff, its kind of dumb to kill all of that just to make it 20mans.

That and I'd prefer not to drop people in my guild.

[willemh]

Hmm, I wonder how this will work in encounter design tho. Will they really create loads of mechanics for each boss just for mythic mode and then remove those mechanics from heroic/normal mode because they cant assume the classes are present in those modes? That would be allot of effort put into mythic encounter design which goes to complete waste in heroic/normal flex modes.

Talking about rooms and stuff aswell, will they really create different environments in mythic mode when those same environments also need to work in 10man flex mode? I somewhat doubt this.

How much will they be able to utillise their freedom they would get in 20man mythic, when they have to keep in mind 10man heroic/flex anyway? Thats what I wonder.

[shaak]

I'm not whinging, I'm stating my opinion. Crawl back under the bridge.

You are whinging, you're crying about Blizzard taking away bragging rights from 10 man. You may be stating your opinion, but your opinion is stupid.
The time required to read anything you have to say is a complete waste, do everyone a favour and stop talking.

Infracted; Don't post just to attack another poster.

[Deja Thoris]

You are whinging, you're crying about Blizzard taking away bragging rights from 10 man. You may be stating your opinion, but your opinion is stupid.
The time required to read anything you have to say is a complete waste, do everyone a favour and stop talking.

I never said we had bragging rights. My stance is its a format I enjoy. If you don't like what I have to say put me on ignore like I've just done to you.

[Fiana]

More balanced encounters is definitely worth all the problems with recruiting.

If they'll return hard encounters with 3-4 tanks + some ranged tanks/kiters involved the game would be much better then it was for the last 2 expansions.
10man raiding was really limiting boss mechanics.

This change is probably the first not-casual-oriented change in the last few years, I'm happy that it's happening.

The only thing I'm afraid of is that they may make mythic difficulty significantly easier and all the changes would be for nothing.

[Mibzo]

What they really should do is just make a patch 5.5 that brings flexible raids to normal and heroic SoO so 10 mans can begin the process of scaling to 20+.

I like this idea, but it might be alittle late for that? Or is it just me?

[Dracodraco]

Hmm, I wonder how this will work in encounter design tho. Will they really create loads of mechanics for each boss just for mythic mode and then remove those mechanics from heroic/normal mode because they cant assume the classes are present in those modes? That would be allot of effort put into mythic encounter design which goes to complete waste in heroic/normal flex modes.

Talking about rooms and stuff aswell, will they really create different environments in mythic mode when those same environments also need to work in 10man flex mode? I somewhat doubt this.

How much will they be able to utillise their freedom they would get in 20man mythic, when they have to keep in mind 10man heroic/flex anyway? Thats what I wonder.

Make mechanics that exist in both modes, but are more punishing on Mythic.
An example -
Imagine if spirit kings had shield in both norm+heroic. In norm, hitting it etc would do nothing, just immune to dmg for 10 sec. Mass dispell not needed.
In heroic, causes caunterattack each time you hit the boss, tight enrage etc (just like it is now). Mass dispell needed.

Another -
Shamblers on lich king normal+heroic both had enrage, but it was only really threatening on heroic, and needed hunters to tranq shot.

BoP's have already been mentioned by themselves.

Really, shouldn't be a big issue.