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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Devs can't force players to stop using a losing strategy. "Derp, we are Alliance, lets all rush mid in EotS and try to get the flag. I'm sure leaving DR undefended won't come back to bite us in the ass, DERP"
    I've played this game for several years now with time on both factions. Losing strategies, general "derpage" have been in this game since forever and on both sides for that matter. That said there's still a reason, presently, BG's on alliance outside AV/IOC are worse now than they have ever been. Also in the past, it was generally more possible for 1 skilled player to help turn the tide substantially, not so true anymore.

    Not only is "The Lion Roars" being a total failure a symptom of the problem, it is in fact a cause. While attempting it, eventually, I got to the point where I brought my shaman in to just AFK and hope that we did well (of course, we didn't). Once behind it was just yeah, AFK so I don't get deserter (I NEVER AFK bgs, at least not while they weren't a 2% win rate for alliance) . It got me to the point of actually thinking about botting the BG's something I would NEVER have come CLOSE to considering otherwise. The point is that character should never be in a BG to begin with. I have toons I do PvP on, that is not one of them. I do not give a shit to fill my bag space and spend hours getting "PvP gear" outside of two wins I'm never, ever going to use.

    But instead I am FORCED to contribute to the problem. I don't get why that quest, truly a cancer on BG's, just hasn't been fucking obliterated yet. I also think Alliance players deserve 2 secrets in compensation per week wasted on that quest, but that's me.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-11-14 at 12:40 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
    But, that's the thing, has that comment been proved? Because going by my (admittedly) anecdotal evidence I don't think either side wins more then the other (ok, maybe in AV [apparently not, see below]). Case in point (the anecdotal evidence), as an alliance member I have a 55-75% winning percentage in each and every BG, and I pretty much exclusively play random BGs, solo queing as a feral druid (never resto, as I understand a single quality healer could sway a game of 10v10) over the course of many years and expansions.

    EDIT: I just calculated my winning % in each BG minus new BGs during MoP, as I haven't even played them yet. My claim above was slightly off.

    AV 62.3
    AB 53.3
    BG 63
    EotS 47.6
    SotA 59.6
    TP 63.8
    WSG 57.5
    IoC 62.8

    Again all of this compiled as a solo queing non-healer.

    Edits have been underlined.
    You are one data point in quite literally millions. The type of people that post in these forums are generally going to care more, know more and be better than the general population simply because they take the time to read about the game when not playing the game. I would wager that almost every poster here will have a winning record horde or alliance. My Horde DK that I have played since the launch of wrath has played 2906 BGs and won 1963. That is a 67% win rate overall. MY AV win rate is 55%. That is a significant difference.

    People need to remember when discussing things like this that there are some really terrible players that play this game and a lot of them simply don't care. Think of all the people that get drunk/high and play or play while watching TV or play while playing other games. So many people that really just don't care, it is so rampant that it even permeated into RBG where you are supposed not have to deal with those types of players.

  3. #23
    Blizzard has confirmed far more NA horde players than ally. Likely related.


    Note that the power level differences between the ally and horde races have been present for awhile. WotF is the top pvp racial by such a huge amount that the top players don't seem to use anything but undead except for shamans and paladins. The PvE differences are also huge, and the final top alliance guilds had to go horde at the beginning of mop, transfering every last character that they cared about to get those tasty tasty unbalanced racials.

    The average player doesn't play at the level where berserking will get them loot. The average pvper WOULD be higher as undead, but the difference isn't shocking. But there's a bigger deal here: if all the serious players play horde, you are much more likely to as well. Maybe you can play with them, or be as good as them, but even if you can't, it's obviously the right call.

    So: Long term imbalance moves all top players to team red, many other players follow, net result is your BGs have long queues.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The average player doesn't play at the level where berserking will get them loot. The average pvper WOULD be higher as undead, but the difference isn't shocking. But there's a bigger deal here: if all the serious players play horde, you are much more likely to as well. Maybe you can play with them, or be as good as them, but even if you can't, it's obviously the right call.

    So: Long term imbalance moves all top players to team red, many other players follow, net result is your BGs have long queues.
    Exactly, well put. Racials may not actually directly affect a player very much, but they can sure affect him indirectly as you mentioned.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    This is absolutely 100% not true. The only BG with a distinct advantage for one side was Silver Shard Mines, and they fixed that. Horde loses AV and IOC because they use a losing strategy; same reason why Alliance loses DWG and EotS so much...because random BG groups usually follow the same losing strategy. It is all they know. I mean, ALL the horde has to do is send a small group of stealthies to kill the first 2 glaives and the Horde would win 9 out of 10 matches. But that never happens, because killing the glaives means you are probably going to die and in randoms no one seems willing to do that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Devs can't force players to stop using a losing strategy.

    "Derp, we are Alliance, lets all rush mid in EotS and try to get the flag. I'm sure leaving DR undefended won't come back to bite us in the ass, DERP"

    Well i can kill 1 glavie with mine hunter before enemies ever see where i am till they mange to kill me second glavie is half HP but like you say ppl lead losing tactics and this is for both horde and alliance they dint try to figure out whats going on they just rush to fight with the bots at middle of nowhere .Allis have advantage in AV in rush but imagine what horde can do when 30 ppl decide to stay in the base but horde almost never do that and they lose every time ofc due allis advantage
    Allis have only real advantage in Capture the Flag BGs because they always have 1-2 more healers that horde team.They lose AB EoTS because they using the AV rush tact they run in big groups till some smart horde players get 2-3 flags/points behind its mine favorite tact there i see that big group come to LM and i see that mine ppl are at mine so even if i call for help i cant stood enuf to get it instead this i camuflage and wait they get the flag and run off leaving 1-2 persons behind in most cases that isnt a problem coz i can just kickthem off from LM with explo trap and get the flag back

    Anyway i playing on diff EU realms and have the same long queue problem and when after 10-15 mins i enter i meet just mindless ppl which cause me to not going to pvp in Random BGs
    Last edited by Zaxio; 2013-11-14 at 08:27 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    I honestly feel awful for horde when they lose, cause i know they sat in a 10+ min queue. Is this because lack of ally queueing or horde? Ally gets instant queue's, most i wait in a queue is a minute. I have a 90 horde that isnt on my battlegroup with 10+ min queues also so this seems to be common on every realm.

    What would blizzard need to do to fix this? Ive thought about it and have no solutions at all, basically just offer more rewards for winning bg's i guess (maybe give some valor or something?)
    well you have to choose

    wait 10 min in queue but win

    or wait 1 or 2 min and lose everything except AV and IoC

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    You are one data point in quite literally millions. The type of people that post in these forums are generally going to care more, know more and be better than the general population simply because they take the time to read about the game when not playing the game. I would wager that almost every poster here will have a winning record horde or alliance. My Horde DK that I have played since the launch of wrath has played 2906 BGs and won 1963. That is a 67% win rate overall. MY AV win rate is 55%. That is a significant difference.

    People need to remember when discussing things like this that there are some really terrible players that play this game and a lot of them simply don't care. Think of all the people that get drunk/high and play or play while watching TV or play while playing other games. So many people that really just don't care, it is so rampant that it even permeated into RBG where you are supposed not have to deal with those types of players.
    I agree with you on the underlined part, mostly. Heres the thing though, I have those numerous 60+ winning percentages, as a solo queueing non healing player. I like to think I'm good, but I don't think I'm that good to swing so many matches in my team's favor as a solo guy as to end up with winning as often has I have. I don't think my being there is swinging all those percentages from what most are saying is a typical average winning percentage for alliance over the past few years to winning percentages in the 60s.
    Last edited by Fahrenheit; 2013-11-14 at 12:51 PM.
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  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire
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    Why does alliance lose 90% of bgs?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlissfulBlithe View Post
    I did this a few months ago actually, I played about 50 games on both sides over a 5 day period of 2 weeks and tallied them (if I could be bothered, I would've done more but I was exhausted by this point).

    As Alliance, the win:loss ratio was 25/75 (roughly 1 win every 4 games) and the queue time ranged from 1 to 2 minutes. Alliance would also win Warsong Gulch and Alterac Valley more than the Horde, as well as win more in general on a Tuesday.

    As Horde, the win:loss ratio was 75/25 (roughly 3 wins every 4 games) and the queue time ranged from 10 to 15 minutes. Horde would also win Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm more than the Alliance, as well as win more in general on a Thursday.

    Alliance get almost instant queues with a low chance of winning while the Horde get much longer queues with a higher chance of winning.

    *Note: This is on the Bloodlust/Oceanic region.

    This syncs with mine. I have bloodlust, Proudmoore i believe and we ALLY lose everything

    My stats are probably

    1 win for 7 losses

    only time it goes better is if i am solo healing and topping hardcore we might win, even than most people dont even play objective on gold maps
    Last edited by Daffan; 2013-11-14 at 03:23 PM.
    Why are Dungeons and Scenarios mash-fests that take less time than the actual queue or wait list? What a waste of content design...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Also the solution is rather easy and it irritates me that Blizzard does not implement it. RBG is faction independent. Horde can fight Horde and vice versa. Turn that switch on for random BGs and everyone wins, both horde queue times and alliance win rates.

    Seems so simple, but alas Blizzard PvP is run by morons.
    The entire two faction model is doomed to fail with the current PvP system with blacklisting and queuing for specific bgs. It should be damn obvious that what would happen is that the most active pvpers would tend to blacklist the bgs that their faction tends to lose a bit more and with the active pvpers moving away the faction would lose the bg even more which in turn would make more people of that faction blacklist the bg... it should have been obvious that the end result would be that specific bgs become horde/ally ghettoes.

    If I were the boss at Blizzard, I'd make them find peace between alliance and horde and remove the two faction design, leaving battlegrounds in as a sport or historical re-enactment scenarios or whatever.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    If I were the boss at Blizzard, I'd make them find peace between alliance and horde and remove the two faction design, leaving battlegrounds in as a sport or historical re-enactment scenarios or whatever.
    I kind of agree at this point. But it would be a pretty big lore step.

  11. #31
    Normally I discount these tails of constant Alliance losing, but in the last 2 days I have played ~20 randoms and haven't won a single game. Either I have had a terribly bad string of luck or something is up with Alliance lately.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Normally I discount these tails of constant Alliance losing, but in the last 2 days I have played ~20 randoms and haven't won a single game. Either I have had a terribly bad string of luck or something is up with Alliance lately.
    I agree completely. Normally I would think its crazy talk, but I just played 13 straight random BGs and lost all of them with only one being what I'd consider competitive.

    WTF? Soloing queuing up for BGs is what I love doing in WoW. If this is what its gonna be like until at least WoD I may call it quits till then.
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  13. #33
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
    I agree completely. Normally I would think its crazy talk, but I just played 13 straight random BGs and lost all of them with only one being what I'd consider competitive. WTF? Soloing queuing up for BGs is what I love doing in WoW. If this is what its gonna be like until at least WoD I may call it quits till then.
    Same with both you and Skarssen, I originally dismissed this, but it's really, really horrible. My fully geared main has trouble carrying a BG even while playing extremely well. For my alts which are less geared/experienced and perhaps mirror more the "average" player, it's just impossible.

    I wasn't kidding, I've NEVER considered it before but I actually thought of trying to bot my Lion Roars achievement on that toon, it's just so fucking bad.

  14. #34
    I've been getting more and more frustrated with random bgs over the past couple of months. I've been running the ReFlex addon that tracks bgs stats (wins/losses) etc and queuing as alliance my chance of seeing a win is slim. I should export all the data across all my toons and check it but AV and IoC are the only 2 bgs that I've seen alliance have a higher than 50% chance of winning, all others were in the 20-30% range last time I checked (and it feels like this has got even lower in the past couple of months). Transferring realms I also swapped from Horde to Alliance and for PvP was the worst thing I could have done I don't do the premade thing but I wonder what that's done to random bgs? When I end up in a 10man BG with 6-8 of the opposition from Tich I know I'm going to have a bad time

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It might be long but at least you fucking win something like 90% of games. I don't feel awful for horde who lose at all.
    I'd really like to see your character's statistics. Usually people who claim they lose 90% of the bg's actually got at least something like 40-45% win rate..
    Of course it can be that you are acting like this in BG chat and severely discouraging other players and thus are the cause of you getting this many loses.
    On my alliance characters I've got more wins than losses, and i have played well over 2k bg's. And yes i solo queue random BG's, (not only AV/IoS).
    On my horde character i had about 50% win rate , about 500 bg's played.
    Only thing i noticed is that during peak times (weekends, evenings) horde tends to win slightly more, and during weekdays/nights/mornings alliance wins slightly more.
    If you play only on saturday nights, it can be you get more losses, but i don't believe that you lose more than 55/60% of the bg's no matter when you play. Then again, i play on EU servers

    Edit: Best thing ever is people like you rerolling horde and noticing they lose just as much :P
    Last edited by Thotmep; 2013-11-18 at 07:49 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Thopp View Post
    If you play only on saturday nights, it can be you get more losses, but i don't believe that you lose more than 55/60% of the bg's no matter when you play. Then again, i play on EU servers

    Edit: Best thing ever is people like you rerolling horde and noticing they lose just as much :P
    Not really, I just subbed back to the game a few weeks ago and I have level 90s on both sides. Being woefully undergeared (quit early in MoP without ever really farming good PvP gear) I expect to be a burden to my teams and likely to lose more often than win but it hardly seems to matter, whichever side I play on I'm surprised if alliance manages to even put up a fight anywhere else than in AV or IoC.

    This is on EU (Outland/ally, Stormreaver/horde though that no longer matters). It's worse than I've ever seen it before.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    This is absolutely 100% not true. The only BG with a distinct advantage for one side was Silver Shard Mines, and they fixed that. Horde loses AV and IOC because they use a losing strategy; same reason why Alliance loses DWG and EotS so much...because random BG groups usually follow the same losing strategy. It is all they know. I mean, ALL the horde has to do is send a small group of stealthies to kill the first 2 glaives and the Horde would win 9 out of 10 matches. But that never happens, because killing the glaives means you are probably going to die and in randoms no one seems willing to do that.
    Actually what I said was 100% true, but okay. Just because Horde CAN win doesn't change the fact that it's a whole lot harder than it is for Alliance to win. Thus, they're imbalanced. Examples of why:

    IoC:

    Docks spawns closer to the Alliance base, making it basically a guaranteed cap for them, while the other major nodes are centered and more fairly contested. Docks also happens to be the single best node to control, seeing as it's able to compete with both hangar and workshop by itself. All Alliance has to do is stall out one of the other nodes, and that's pretty much it. Yes, killing the glaives is a huge deal for Horde, but Alliance is smart enough now to protect them. One or two stealthies won't cut it most games anymore. So yes Horde can win, but it's much more straight forward and easy for the Alliance.

    AV:

    This is worse than IoC, in terms of balance. The map is asymmetrical, leading to Alliance having a shorter (and easier) pathing to the first boss, then the second. Ever since they moved the Horde starting cave back, Alliance literally always gets the stamina buff from the first boss, cause they always get there first. They also get an extra graveyard along the way of their natural pathing. What's more, Horde towers are much easier to assault and hold until they're destroyed than Alliance towers are. Then there's the fact that the bridge and ridge area near it makes a great choke point for relatively few Alliance to hold off a ton of Horde. The pathing, the towers, and everything else all results in the Alliance winning the race in basically all cases. The only way for Horde to win is to have a coordinated turtle and force it into an actual PvP match, then it's an even chance. But again, that takes much more effort than simply racing to the end.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thopp View Post
    I'd really like to see your character's statistics. Usually people who claim they lose 90% of the bg's actually got at least something like 40-45% win rate..
    That's because the wins were from years ago. Not from the last few months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thopp View Post
    On my alliance characters I've got more wins than losses, and i have played well over 2k bg's. And yes i solo queue random BG's, (not only AV/IoS). On my horde character i had about 50% win rate , about 500 bg's played.
    That's because the wins were from years ago. Not from the last few months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thopp View Post
    Then again, i play on EU servers
    I play on US. I don't know what your situation is, and I fully agree even 1 year ago and up to a few years ago it was mostly 50/50 but somewhat battlegroup related. Especially with the combined battlegroups (everyone's one population now in US) in the last few months for every Alliance player solo-queuing it has gotten much, much worse.

    With the exception of AV/IOC and especially bad in Kotmogu/Mines. My main with full PvP gear and experience can help win Kotmogu's (so at least the last time I played randoms which is over a month ago, I had a decent win rate there) just because a single solo player can help turn the tide a lot there though. Not true in many other randoms.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thopp View Post
    I'd really like to see your character's statistics. Usually people who claim they lose 90% of the bg's actually got at least something like 40-45% win rate..
    Of course it can be that you are acting like this in BG chat and severely discouraging other players and thus are the cause of you getting this many loses.
    On my alliance characters I've got more wins than losses, and i have played well over 2k bg's. And yes i solo queue random BG's, (not only AV/IoS).
    On my horde character i had about 50% win rate , about 500 bg's played.
    Only thing i noticed is that during peak times (weekends, evenings) horde tends to win slightly more, and during weekdays/nights/mornings alliance wins slightly more.
    If you play only on saturday nights, it can be you get more losses, but i don't believe that you lose more than 55/60% of the bg's no matter when you play. Then again, i play on EU servers
    Not sure what it's like on EU servers, but on US, over the course of years (at least since stats started being tracked) I averaged close to a 60% winning percentage, all while solo queuing to randoms as a feral druid. It has ALWAYS seemed to me that I won more than I lost, but it was close and competitive. That was up until I started playing again in MoP... seriously, outside of AV/IoC I've won 3 games out of maybe 25 or 30, and I'd say a good 20 of those losses were just outright beatdowns, and I played these games during varied times. It's really that bad, in fact I can't recall one side having so heavy an advantage at any point previously, and I say this as a guy who been PvPing since May/June of 2005, who's done enough to earn Battlemaster/100K+ HKs/Justicar.
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  20. #40
    I have heard people complaining about losing as alliance way before MoP, and it is getting old. I finished my WsG rep grind for justicar during mop and while WsG is one of the bg's where i admit that horde tends to win more, I still got won about half of the games.

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