1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    seeing as blizzard stated that only 1% of the player ever seeing raids/end game content was a bad idea and wrong. they made it so everyone can see it, because alot of the hard work goes into raids. they want people to see that hard work. that was why LFR was brought in then flex but that another topic.
    It was a good idea to make the encounters that difficult. The only thing that prevented the 99% from seeing the higher raids was their own ineptitude. Even then I'm not sure what the actual numbers are for people who never reached max level. I think adding hardmode was a little too extreme, and that the Vanilla/BC model was best for raiding. It makes the game last a lot longer if people are working on different content at different times. Some people made it into Black Temple during the end of TBC which is fine, because when they got to see the content it was well earned. I was in a guild on an alt that killed Lady Vashj for the first time a year and a half after SSC came out and vent exploded with delight at the accomplishment. Raiding is handed out and content is consumed far too fast in wows current model. A few things were over the top back then, like having to constantly recruit new players and attune them to BT. However, now that guild achievements exist a lot of this pain can largely be removed by providing a guild with the attunement and requiring X amount of members of the guild to be in the raid for it to open up.

  2. #362
    Oh yes, because I'm sure being "apt" didn't relate entirely to fitting yourself into the little box that Tigole and Furor put you in where the only tanks were Warriors and the only DPS that were worth a shit were Warriors and Rogues, and maybe Johnny-Come-Lately the Shadowbolt spamming Warlock. All because they were butthurt over class performance in Everquest so every class other than their chosen favorites were hobbled to the point where raids had to have gimmicky shit like Tranq and banish rotations so other classes got a chance to raid at all.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Coombs View Post
    It was a good idea to make the encounters that difficult. The only thing that prevented the 99% from seeing the higher raids was their own ineptitude. Even then I'm not sure what the actual numbers are for people who never reached max level. I think adding hardmode was a little too extreme, and that the Vanilla/BC model was best for raiding. It makes the game last a lot longer if people are working on different content at different times. Some people made it into Black Temple during the end of TBC which is fine, because when they got to see the content it was well earned. I was in a guild on an alt that killed Lady Vashj for the first time a year and a half after SSC came out and vent exploded with delight at the accomplishment. Raiding is handed out and content is consumed far too fast in wows current model. A few things were over the top back then, like having to constantly recruit new players and attune them to BT. However, now that guild achievements exist a lot of this pain can largely be removed by providing a guild with the attunement and requiring X amount of members of the guild to be in the raid for it to open up.
    .... your first sentence makes you sound like an ass. LFR is here to stay, its that simple.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    See, this is the thing that I find preposterous. Aside from the no-fly issue, which really is trivial at best, the rest of this expansion absolutely continues the stream of casual appeasement that's been prevalent since 4.3.

    You're getting housing, which will include bots that fetch you mats, gold, epics, etc
    You're getting to skip 9/10ths of all leveling content in 1 button press.
    You're (likely) still getting easy, quick heroic dungeons.
    You're going to have far far fewer dailies
    You have an expanded means of raiding via more flex modes.
    You're getting QoL changes made to professions.
    You're getting a highly simplified armor system.
    You're getting simplified stats. You're being made so awesome that you'll never miss or get resisted! (seriously, wtf)

    All this, and you still deem this game to be hostile to the casual player? Pass me some of what you're smoking.
    Perhaps you should pass me something of what you are smoking, as I don't think you, the elitist-minded MMO champion poster, has any idea what you are talking about.

    -Housing will be a boon to the hardcore elitists who want to show off the blood of their conquests. It will boost the hardcore auction house types.
    -You get to skip 9/10ths of leveling - assuming you are looking to level up another alt. And the way it works, it's more like 40-50% of leveling, as the final levels of leveling tend to take as much time as the previous levels combined up to the current xpac
    -EZmode heroics are already in the game, and in fact their rewards have been nerfed compared to wrath, bc, and cataclysm
    -No dailies eh? How about we wait and see - Blizzard tends to replace one grind with another.
    -Raiding modes will be ostensibly unchanged from how they work today for the lower end more casual player
    -Leveling professions from 0-600 will be made easier, Blizz has always made it a challlenge to go to max level on professions in the current xpac, no reason to expect that to change
    -Armor system... really? There hasn't been any thought put into armor since reforgelite came out in cataclysm. It's not more or less alt/casual friendly.
    -Simplified stats... ibid from armor system

    So... you have one thing that will favor the hardcore, and a bunch of stuff that is already in the game and neutral to the casual/alt player. And you have the gall to ask what I am smoking? Despite the previous removal of many conveniences, and further planned removal of the flying convenience.

    Typical, typical, typical mmo champion elitist. Hope you enjoy the game when it will be only people like yourself left, because that's what it's coming to.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    insult to alt players everywhere.
    I am an alt player and I am NOT insulted --love the no fly design

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=Pyromelter;23666681\-Armor system... really? There hasn't been any thought put into armor since reforgelite came out in cataclysm. It's not more or less alt/casual friendly.
    -Simplified stats... ibid from armor system

    So... you have one thing that will favor the hardcore, and a bunch of stuff that is already in the game and neutral to the casual/alt player. And you have the gall to ask what I am smoking? Despite the previous removal of many conveniences, and further planned removal of the flying convenience.

    Typical, typical, typical mmo champion elitist. Hope you enjoy the game when it will be only people like yourself left, because that's what it's coming to.[/QUOTE]
    yes armour is now much simpler -- a pally only has to get 1 set not 3 , druid 1 set not 4 , most other classes 1 set not 2 . MUCH MUCH more casual friendly

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    .... your first sentence makes you sound like an ass. LFR is here to stay, its that simple.
    is it so hard to respond with facts instead of personal attacks? i guess it is for you. stop trolling

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -Housing will be a boon to the hardcore elitists who want to show off the blood of their conquests. It will boost the hardcore auction house types.
    WTF am I reading. Good job ignoring the whole 'send followers on missions, collect prizes aspect' of garrisons, hmm? And yes, I'm sure that trophies hanging on the walls of players (to be viewed of course, only by others that get invited there) are a huge advantage to... well, screenshots! Dammit Blizz!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -You get to skip 9/10ths of leveling - assuming you are looking to level up another alt. And the way it works, it's more like 40-50% of leveling, as the final levels of leveling tend to take as much time as the previous levels combined up to the current xpac
    Interesting spin, but it's still an elimination of the vast majority of exp required, and it's still a boon directly to casual players. Were you hoping for an insta-100 button? Actually, don't answer that, I can already guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -EZmode heroics are already in the game
    And are continuing. As I stated in my opening paragraph

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -No dailies eh? How about we wait and see.
    Nothing to wait and see about, it's already been stated that there will be few, if any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -Raiding modes will be ostensibly unchanged from how they work today for the lower end more casual player
    Spin, spin, spin. LFR will continue, and you now have an additional flex mode, which blows away the whole "I don't want to commit to scheduling" angle completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -Leveling professions from 0-600 will be made easier, Blizz has always made it a challlenge to go to max level on professions in the current xpac, no reason to expect that to change
    They have? I can only assume that you have no professions at 600, if you think they're hard now (or harder than they used to be in something like Cata, where you absolutely HAD to run heroic dungeons, and win a roll, to get chaos orbs). Clue: They're easier than they've ever been right now. I have 10 professions maxed, and not one of them was anything less than a walk in the park from Cata levels onward. In fact, mining can currently be leveled from 0-600 without leaving Pandaria, and that sort of mechanic is going to be built on in the next expansion. So, you were saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -Armor system... really? There hasn't been any thought put into armor since reforgelite came out in cataclysm
    And now there's even less to worry about. Reaching out to an add-on to bolster your argument? Tsk tsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    -Simplified stats... ibid from armor system
    Umm.. what? I'll just assume that you're admitting I'm correct on this one too. Moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    So... you have one thing that will favor the hardcore, and a bunch of stuff that is already in the game and neutral to the casual/alt player.
    No, I've listed all new additions, as well as ones that are in place, have been since 4.3, and are continuing or being expanded on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Typical, typical, typical mmo champion elitist.
    Typical retort from someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on in this debate. You are, quite objectively, wrong.

    I'd post a 'you lose, good day sir' pic, but those aren't viewed kindly around here.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Sul View Post
    I am an alt player and I am NOT insulted --love the no fly design
    Well, I was an alt player, and I think the new design sucks. I went from 10 level 85s - two heroic raid geared twin mains + 8 LFR purpled out alts that I really enjoyed. MOP's dailies / rep gated VP gear killed that for me. 5.4 started to make at least think of playing them again, then BAM that feeling got blown to hell with the thought of having to do a big quest chain to get them flying in WoD. (Just like I have ZERO interest in getting any of my alts the legendary cloak.) So now I have 4 level 90s, one of them dinged just before blizzcon.

    Being able to fly while playing an alt would be pretty nice. Being unable to fly on an alt without having to go through some bullshit question chain pretty much kills my interest in WoD which wasn't that high to begin with since I probably won't get to raid in a Mythic raid group.

  9. #369
    Epic! stabetha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arteous View Post
    is it so hard to respond with facts instead of personal attacks? i guess it is for you. stop trolling
    how do you answer -
    The only thing that prevented the 99% from seeing the higher raids was their own ineptitude.
    with facts? except for the fact that he is an ass
    Last edited by stabetha; 2013-11-17 at 07:07 AM.
    “If you are taught bitterness and anger, then you will believe you are a victim. You will feel aggrieved and the twin brother of aggrievment is entitlement. So now you think you are owed something and you don’t have to work for it and now you’re on a really bad road to nowhere because there are people who will play to that sense of victimhood, aggrievement and entitlement, and you still won’t have a job.” - Condoleezza Rice

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by stabetha View Post
    how do you answer -

    with facts? except for the fact that he is an ass
    Well there arent facts to deny it, but many times we have seen the general playerbase is terrible

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post



    It's pretty hard to pretend that flying doesn't completely break how quests are supposed to work, I'm surprised anyone is trying
    Most of the quest content is pretty useless at level cap, so why the hell should it matter if flying trivialises something which has otherwise lost most of its value at that point.
    No XP rewards, less rewarding than other content aimed at the level cap.
    Only there for completion really.

    We will continue to argue against utter rubbish, including that blizzard have put out.

    If content is not attractive, is not fun during the levelling process then dragging it out artificially until some magic patch is not going to make it any more so.
    Forcing people to spend more time in it will not make it better.

    If you can't make it fun or attractive the first time, just give up and let players experience it how they want.
    They are killing immersion with that, not creating it.
    Immersion is a personal experience, something you can enjoy.
    Therefore hurting the enjoyment of the content kills immersion.

    What happens in 6.1 that magically resolves any argument that brought that restriction in the first place ?
    Not a damn thing.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-11-17 at 07:42 AM.

  12. #372
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathonia View Post
    I should have known better than to get my hopes up for this expansion. Guess I will just stay unsubbed.
    If flying was the one thing that kept you subbed then you can't have much to complain about...
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

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  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathonia View Post
    From the front page. I know there will be some people psyched about this, but honestly all I could say was WTF. So, they decided to design the first part of WoD around ground mounts only including max level content and want us to work on some quest line to earn flying back because it's so awesome? Really? Fucking really? It's hard to put into words how much this hurts my head. You gave us flight. It is very much like Pandora's Box. You can't put it back. Design around flying. Monstrous Kaliri, Flak Cannons and enemy faction base defenses were all put in during BC and they were dangerous! Why not add in things like that again? And why the hell should I jump through hoops to get flying BACK. I already have it. I shouldn't have to earn the privilege to use what I already earned and paid for long ago.


    Can anyone really make sense of this to me?
    Take it easy. After all what for you need this flying? To gather herbs or ore faster? Cmon, this is so 2007. There are flight paths if you need to get somewhere, there are summons. After all there are very few things left you cant get in using Blizzard systems - LFG, LFR, BG's. For entire MoP I was barely leaving Orgrimmar, only during levelling up.
    Personnaly I like this decision to remove flying, I enjoyed MoP ground questing so much. It couldnt be so cool with flying mounts.
    Also you ask for things that makes flying dangerous. Again - for me this is worst thing ever happened in WoW. I was so frustrated when something kicked me off from mount so I smashed at the ground. No, no, I dont want this again.
    Chill up guys, I believe it will be fun!
    Peace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Perhaps you should pass me something of what you are smoking, as I don't think you, the elitist-minded MMO champion poster, has any idea what you are talking about.

    -Housing will be a boon to the hardcore elitists who want to show off the blood of their conquests. It will boost the hardcore auction house types.
    -You get to skip 9/10ths of leveling - assuming you are looking to level up another alt. And the way it works, it's more like 40-50% of leveling, as the final levels of leveling tend to take as much time as the previous levels combined up to the current xpac
    -EZmode heroics are already in the game, and in fact their rewards have been nerfed compared to wrath, bc, and cataclysm
    -No dailies eh? How about we wait and see - Blizzard tends to replace one grind with another.
    -Raiding modes will be ostensibly unchanged from how they work today for the lower end more casual player
    -Leveling professions from 0-600 will be made easier, Blizz has always made it a challlenge to go to max level on professions in the current xpac, no reason to expect that to change
    -Armor system... really? There hasn't been any thought put into armor since reforgelite came out in cataclysm. It's not more or less alt/casual friendly.
    -Simplified stats... ibid from armor system

    So... you have one thing that will favor the hardcore, and a bunch of stuff that is already in the game and neutral to the casual/alt player. And you have the gall to ask what I am smoking? Despite the previous removal of many conveniences, and further planned removal of the flying convenience.

    Typical, typical, typical mmo champion elitist. Hope you enjoy the game when it will be only people like yourself left, because that's what it's coming to.
    I never liked the process of simplifying of the game. Blizzard cry loud like - "next expansion will be AWESOME FOR SURE, cuz we give you ...*pam-param*... REFORGING!!!" and few expansions later they move it away. I understand WoW evolves and things that was new yesterday may be old today. Nevertheless, I was angry when Blizz removed armor penetration, I was angry when they took away talent tree, ammo pouches, etc etc. I dont like the process of simplifying the game. What next? remove secondary stats at all?

    I understand reforging is mostly about Reforgelite, today I never count what item exactly I need to reforge, but what if I dislike Crit but I like my spells to be able to be casted fast? Or I like how my Mastery works?

    Dont get at least some imaginative component of the game, there should be at least something you need to count and think on, not just 550 ilvl item -> 549 ilvl item.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    Take it easy. After all what for you need this flying? To gather herbs or ore faster? Cmon, this is so 2007. There are flight paths if you need to get somewhere, there are summons. After all there are very few things left you cant get in using Blizzard systems - LFG, LFR, BG's. For entire MoP I was barely leaving Orgrimmar, only during levelling up.
    Personnaly I like this decision to remove flying, I enjoyed MoP ground questing so much. It couldnt be so cool with flying mounts.
    Also you ask for things that makes flying dangerous. Again - for me this is worst thing ever happened in WoW. I was so frustrated when something kicked me off from mount so I smashed at the ground. No, no, I dont want this again.
    Chill up guys, I believe it will be fun!
    Peace.
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop. I can't be aggro'd so no danger, I get bored so I alt tab out or walk away so I don't see the beauty of the land. Seems to me that if you want immersion and dangerous world you should remove flight points and keep flying mounts in. I can interact with my mount, I am immersed on my flying mount and I remember all the times in half hill I got aggro on my flying mount from those damn packs of white giant birds.

    Suppose to stop swoop ganking? Yeah for 2 months, then you can swoop gank for 16 months. Now the pvpers are bitching that they can't fly to get away from gankers and griefers. Seems like the pvp arguement is based on farts and lollypops.

    "Controlling how you interact with the environment" for two months but for the following 16 months anyone can do it without controlling the environment?

    "Want it to feel epic." And it will, for 10 minutes then its back to business as usual for 16 months. Its like a Kid who gets their license and can finally drive without their parents, its awesome sauce... for 10 minutes and then they spend the rest of their lives checking their texts while they drive because the commute to work every day is so fucking boring.

    You can experience danger again! No, Its only dangerous if I fall asleep while pressing the 'w' key to get away. If I do get hit by enough to dismount me I die outside of aggro range and I corpse walk back. We all know how much we love corpse walks.

    "Your lazy and want everything handed to you.' No, I just don't find ground mounts after hitting max level fun. Its fucking annoying when you have to gather mats for flasks for raid night for your guild. 30 minutes I could be spending having fun. If its not fun I don't give a shit about doing it.

    "Its the journey not the destination!" Screw that noise. If I go to Disney World I don't post picks of myself driving my car to Disney. I post pics of myself on a rollercoaster, Hugging Goofey and punching Mickey's nuts. I am there for the rollercoaster rides and the cotton candy not the 8 hour mindnumbing car ride there.

    "In other xpacs you had to wait for flying too, except Crapacyslm", There is a difference between waiting til max level and waiting for max level +2 months +epic quest. It sucks balls especially if your enjoyment of the game comes from playing your alts as well.

    Having flight points completely makes taking flying mounts out of the game useless, I can get where ever I want on a rail without being immersed, no danger and I can go take a poop and still get there? Whoopie, nothing says fun like not having to actually interact and play the game you want to play.

    And let me stop this idiotic summons escuse, sure it sounds great unless you are the person who has to hoof it out to the summoning stone. It seems real easy and fast when all you have to do is hit accept summons button. You didn't have to do the footwork. Stupid escuse is stupid.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-11-17 at 08:15 AM.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Stuff
    Same sentiment, but put a lot better than I could ever do.
    I would hope that such logic would put this discussion to rest, but we know that won't happen.
    Forcing repetitive content that only has value the first few times you do it is not fun, it is not immersive.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Having flight points completely makes taking flying mounts out of the game useless, I can get where ever I want on a rail without being immersed, no danger and I can go take a poop and still get there? Whoopie, nothing says fun like not having to actually interact and play the game you want to play.
    Routine flight travel will still be afk'able. But everything else gets more difficult and interesting without flying mounts.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Most of the quest content is pretty useless at level cap, so why the hell should it matter if flying trivialises something which has otherwise lost most of its value at that point.
    No XP rewards, less rewarding than other content aimed at the level cap.
    Only there for completion really.
    You're a bit behind on the times.

    Dailies are gone, so questing, events, and treasures are the ways that Blizzard expects you to gear up for raiding content, sort of like how rep rewards with Valor were a major focus in Mists to fill in certain slots at the entry level.

    So no, it's not just completion anymore. They're making questing and overworld travel more relevant to endgame rewards.

  18. #378
    I like the whole thing. A step back towards making the world feel more like a world. Giving it breadth and distance. Making it feel like a location, not just a map that I casually cruise over with no real depth. I'm down with it.

    Or at least, I'm down with it enough to not whinge like an asshole until I have more information in my hands.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmer View Post
    You're a bit behind on the times.

    Dailies are gone, so questing, events, and treasures are the ways that Blizzard expects you to gear up for raiding content, sort of like how rep rewards with Valor were a major focus in Mists to fill in certain slots at the entry level.

    So no, it's not just completion anymore. They're making questing and overworld travel more relevant to endgame rewards.
    I made no mention of dailies, so that is jumping the gun a bit making flawed assumptions.
    The content aimed at the levelling players, the mobs, the hazards.
    That is the content which loses value when you are no longer levelling.

    They are shoving things in to try and encourage people out into the world, while with the other hand taking away one of the major incentives which would get people out there.
    It is a mess, nothing else.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-11-17 at 03:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  20. #380
    I don't mind, but I can't say I'm looking forward to doing this on all of my alts. And I like playing my alts since I get bored quickly with only 1 character. But as always, we'll see what happens when it goes live.

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