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  1. #21
    Blademaster Trictagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    you are making it look like hit is equal value as haste wich isnt the case.

    the case in this tier is that hit and expertise are something "you need" because Little to no pieces have those stats. so reallity ripper ring hit is 100% used. assing EP value to an ítem and calculate it like that. in the case of reality ripper ring the ep value is high because the hit is something you will use 100%.
    Once again: WHEN COMPARING ITEMS hit haste and expertise ARE equal in value. This is because they are interchangeable because of reforging. When looking at how much dps a raw stat gives you, hit and expertise are higher until cap, BUT YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE CAP so this is irrelevant. Items with hit/expertise DO NOT HAVE a higher EP value when looking at what gear is best. If this was true, the expertise mastery ring from Galakras would be BiS, but it is not. Your logic would be true if reforging did not exist. With your logic, Tortos bow last tier would be bis, hit expertise blue socket, just because you assign such high values to hit and expertise. We do not have "too little hit and expertise," as we can reforge to it.

    If you still cannot understand this simple concept, I will no longer be replying to your inaccurate posts in this thread, because it feels like I am speaking to a wall. It literally seems you haven't read anything I've posted.
    Last edited by Trictagon; 2013-11-17 at 02:09 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Trictagon View Post
    Once again: WHEN COMPARING ITEMS hit haste and expertise ARE equal in value. This is because they are interchangeable because of reforging. When looking at how much dps a raw stat gives you, hit and expertise are higher until cap, BUT YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE CAP so this is irrelevant. Items with hit/expertise DO NOT HAVE a higher EP value when looking at what gear is best. If this was true, the expertise mastery ring from Galakras would be BiS, but it is not. Your logic would be true if reforging did not exist. With your logic, Tortos bow last tier would be bis, hit expertise blue socket, just because you assign such high values to hit and expertise. We do not have "too little hit and expertise," as we can reforge to it.

    If you still cannot understand this simple concept, I will no longer be replying to your inaccurate posts in this thread, because it feels like I am speaking to a wall. It literally seems you haven't read anything I've posted.
    the one not getting it is you buddy, from gear in BIS you wont get enough hit and expertise to hit the cap, this scenario is "the 1st time it happen ever", our tier pieces always had the worse itemization, now out of the 5 pieces 3 are pretty good and 1 is OK with the other one OK as well, they all also have red sockets on them and most of them are good even if you dont count the 2pc and 4pc bonus, before u will get 2pc or 4pc because it was pretty good not because the stats on the tier.

    after that you get the offpieces, crit haste neck, crit haste belt, crit haste boots, crit haste weapon (even tho i like more malkorok gun as BM), crit expertise bracers, crit hit ring, crit mastery ring. so where you going to get the hit from? reforge? from haste when you can get a crit hit piece?

    you cant treat hit and expertise as if they had the same value because they dont, i know where you comming from but this time it dosnt aply because we actually WANT those pieces so we dont have to lose from reforge.

    using reality ripper ring after reforge (all haste into hit or expertise or hit into expertise or expertise into hit) i can get my caps 1 hit above the cap, and 3 expertise above the cap. most of the pieces are so good that most of them are reforge to just trade and hit the exact cap instead of going overhand.

    why i dont look at EJ BIS list, well because they use FD to do their calculations, in wich due to shot shifting you get the wrong values, they not far from reality but they are not acurate and when the difference is just few dps it wont really make a diference. another thing that you also gota know when looking at those BIS list is the settings they use to "calculate" BiS. 0 to min latency (way far from true, specially for me that i play from Venezuela) 5 min fights and stuff that never happen.

  3. #23
    Blademaster Trictagon's Avatar
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    I'm done trying to explain something that is just going over your head.

  4. #24
    Ring of Restless Energy - ilvl 572 = 1719 + 60 crit socketbonus, total of 1779 rating.
    Swift Serpent Signet - ilvl 572 = 1755 total rating.

    Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy - ilvl 572 = 1747 rating + 60 crit socketbonus, total of 1807 rating.
    Reality Ripper Ring - ilvl 572 = 1673 total rating.

    So, Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy has 134 more rating than Reality Ripper Ring.


    But yeah, who cares..
    Basically the same shit.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trictagon View Post
    I'm done trying to explain something that is just going over your head.
    Bye bye then =>

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofey View Post
    Ring of Restless Energy - ilvl 572 = 1719 + 60 crit socketbonus, total of 1779 rating.
    Swift Serpent Signet - ilvl 572 = 1755 total rating.

    Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy - ilvl 572 = 1747 rating + 60 crit socketbonus, total of 1807 rating.
    Reality Ripper Ring - ilvl 572 = 1673 total rating.

    So, Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy has 134 more rating than Reality Ripper Ring.


    But yeah, who cares..
    Basically the same shit.
    134 more rating, if all stats were the same value sure thats fine, the case isnt, hit rating value is 3 time more valuable than mastery and haste when under the cap. so while yes it have 134 more stats on it the value of those stats dont outweight the value of hit on reality ripper ring. because you are under the cap. this mean that the hit and crit on that ring outweight the extra value on band of ascendancy.

    there is no other piece in your gear with hit, only bracers and shoulders that have expertise on it and they dont make to the cap either, so when you are going to get hit to cap you will lose crit (wich is a higher value stat than haste or mastery) and haste in order to reach the hit cap.

    just from ask mr robot weights you get:

    doing crit>haste>mastery template (wich will change by a lot when using simcraft)

    hit: 2.8
    expertise: 2.8
    crit: 1.6
    haste: 1.4
    mastery: 1.31

    ascendancy 580 ilvl:
    haste: 928
    mastery: 959
    crit: 60
    total: 1299.2+1256.29+96=2651.49

    Ripper 580 ilvl:
    crit: 1069
    hit: 739
    total: 2993.2+ 1182.4=4175.6

    so now that we see that hit is more valuable (because there is no piece with hit on it other than reality ripper ring) so it outweight the socket bonus and the stats on the other ring.

    this dosnt take into account how much crit, haste you are going to lose in order to get to that cap, because out of the whole set of gear there isnt enough expertise either to hit the cap and you still 1500 bellow hit cap, this mean that the pieces that had haste on it or mastery (you wont plan to reforge out of crit off course) you will have to turn them into hit and expertise to reach the valuable caps, without mentioning that you will get above hit and expertise cap losing even more points.

  7. #27
    Why do you give hit and expertise those weights? It is pretty much always preferable to get pieces with optimal secondary stats and reforge haste/mastery to hit/expertise. You also seem to assume that the person has full BiS gear.

  8. #28
    dks own alot hehe asdasd

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by egillth View Post
    Why do you give hit and expertise those weights? It is pretty much always preferable to get pieces with optimal secondary stats and reforge haste/mastery to hit/expertise. You also seem to assume that the person has full BiS gear.
    Its a thread about BiS rings, one could assume you have BiS gear.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofey View Post
    Its a thread about BiS rings, one could assume you have BiS gear.
    I understand the topic to be which rings are BiS on normal mode, not which ones are theoratically best assuming you follow the askmrrobot BiS gear list and have all of the gear listed there.

    As far as I'm concerned the best way to find out which rings you want is to use FD or something similar to see your personal dps gain for each ring based on your current gear.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by egillth View Post
    I understand the topic to be which rings are BiS on normal mode, not which ones are theoratically best assuming you follow the askmrrobot BiS gear list and have all of the gear listed there.

    As far as I'm concerned the best way to find out which rings you want is to use FD or something similar to see your personal dps gain for each ring based on your current gear.
    then is way easier. you will use what you get, by far heroic norushen is way easier than some of the normal modes, if you kill garosh normal you will kill norushen so why we arguing here?

    when you are doing normals you cant have a BiS list, simple as that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by egillth View Post
    Why do you give hit and expertise those weights? It is pretty much always preferable to get pieces with optimal secondary stats and reforge haste/mastery to hit/expertise. You also seem to assume that the person has full BiS gear.
    those are your weights buddy, is far more important and will be the biggest upgrade to hit cap and expertise cap above any other 2ndry stat, without taking into account how cheap in value they are, comparing a person with 0 hit and 0 expertise vs someone with the same pool of stats - some due to equiping the pieces that will hit cap him and expertise cap him will be huge in favor of the person with the caps.

    this wihtout mentioning things like, killing an add and missing that kill shot, what would happen in that scenario, you lose the kill shot damage, you will lose the reset of the kill shot, add would still be alive and you will have to spend even more resources to finish off that add. if you are soloing adds all that will be your fault causing even a wipe, so why would you not hit cap and expertise cap. oh because you can reforge other more important stats into hit and crit, the point is not having to lose crit and haste in order to gain hit and expertise. wich you would do using ascendancy band because you will have to reforge mastery into hit.

    so why is listed as BiS in EJ for heroic mode, idk maybe because heroic thunderfoge gear have more stats and you can assign more into hit and expertise without losing too much of crit but for normals this may not be the case.

  12. #32
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    I'm sorry, but weighting hit and expertise on gear that high is just stupid. This idea basically lives on from the days when reaching hit caps were hard, but it's certainly not relevant now. And Perrito, obviously noone is saying we should play below the caps. I dunno why you keep arguing that point.
    Last edited by Beace; 2013-11-17 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    those are your weights buddy, is far more important and will be the biggest upgrade to hit cap and expertise cap above any other 2ndry stat, without taking into account how cheap in value they are, comparing a person with 0 hit and 0 expertise vs someone with the same pool of stats - some due to equiping the pieces that will hit cap him and expertise cap him will be huge in favor of the person with the caps.

    this wihtout mentioning things like, killing an add and missing that kill shot, what would happen in that scenario, you lose the kill shot damage, you will lose the reset of the kill shot, add would still be alive and you will have to spend even more resources to finish off that add. if you are soloing adds all that will be your fault causing even a wipe, so why would you not hit cap and expertise cap. oh because you can reforge other more important stats into hit and crit, the point is not having to lose crit and haste in order to gain hit and expertise. wich you would do using ascendancy band because you will have to reforge mastery into hit.

    so why is listed as BiS in EJ for heroic mode, idk maybe because heroic thunderfoge gear have more stats and you can assign more into hit and expertise without losing too much of crit but for normals this may not be the case.
    We do not want to get hit/exp on items if we can avoid it, it is always preferable to just reforge the less desired secondary stats to hit/exp as needed.
    Last edited by egillth; 2013-11-18 at 01:15 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    134 more rating, if all stats were the same value sure thats fine, the case isnt, hit rating value is 3 time more valuable than mastery and haste when under the cap.
    You don't understand. Hits 'value' is not its weight. That's just an arbitrary number (for arguments sake) so that reforge tools can make sure you hit the cap. The weights could be 10 times for hit and it would change nothing.

    Think about this, where do you get hit from on your gear when its not on the item itself? You get it from the reversed priority order as you will always reforge your least desirable stat into hit. If you have items with mastery, the hit you are reforging into is worth the same as the mastery you are swapping.

    I'll make it even more simple if you don't understand. Imagine gear only has 2 stats - crit and hit. You still need 2550 hit but you can reforge. Hit is worth exactly the same as crit in this example. You will always have 2550 hit and all of that hit is 2550 less crit on your gear, so hit is worth the same as crit. It works the same in WoW now except there are more stats to choose from (But it will always be from your worst stat anyway).

    Seeing as most of the time you avoid mastery, hit is worth around the same as haste (depending on what you are reforging out of ofc)

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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Clampy View Post
    You don't understand. Hits 'value' is not its weight. That's just an arbitrary number (for arguments sake) so that reforge tools can make sure you hit the cap. The weights could be 10 times for hit and it would change nothing.

    Think about this, where do you get hit from on your gear when its not on the item itself? You get it from the reversed priority order as you will always reforge your least desirable stat into hit. If you have items with mastery, the hit you are reforging into is worth the same as the mastery you are swapping.

    I'll make it even more simple if you don't understand. Imagine gear only has 2 stats - crit and hit. You still need 2550 hit but you can reforge. Hit is worth exactly the same as crit in this example. You will always have 2550 hit and all of that hit is 2550 less crit on your gear, so hit is worth the same as crit. It works the same in WoW now except there are more stats to choose from (But it will always be from your worst stat anyway).

    Seeing as most of the time you avoid mastery, hit is worth around the same as haste (depending on what you are reforging out of ofc)
    i understand that, you cant also ignore weights, thats why they are for, the reforge for that profile using that ring for the extra 134 2ndry stats have on it (wich are really just 74 since you can also use the 60+crit that realitty ring have on bonus.) in that ring you need to reforge mastery into hit, this also mean that ring will have 60 crit. why you need to reforge mastery into hit instead of mastery into crit, well because you dont have enough stats in the other pieces of gear to cap, because we have 0 hit and expertise from our gear.

    for this tier i still think the extra stats dont outweight the loss of crit and hit that would otherwise be on realitty ripper ring. and this is comparing 580 loot at 553 ilvl the diference in them is mínimum, far harder to reach the caps and you can probably need to slap a 80 agi 80 hit gem on it to just reach the caps.

  16. #36
    You do realize that all of the BiS lists are hit/expertise capped, but still using the Band of Ascendancy, right? You don't need the hit that's present on the reality ripper ring. You can still hit the cap by simply reforging, you're better off going for the extra socket since it has more agility.

  17. #37
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    You don't need the hit/expertise on your gear. With gear levels rising throughout the expansion, but the amount of hit/expertise needed staying static, it is easier to reforge to those marks.

    I have ZERO *0* expertise on my gear. But I reached the expertise cap easily, with reforging. I could probably reach both 2550 caps from reforging if I had no hit/expertise on any piece, because most of my reforges are still +crit.

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