1. #1

    Question Paladins in the Warcraft lore ?

    Hi,

    When I see old introduction videos, or the little I know about Warcraft lore, it gives me a weird feeling.
    The reality of paladins being played in wow seems to be made of a wide majority of holy paladins, then healers, even sometimes clothed in some kind of robe.
    Each and every famous paladin I know from the lore seems to be a retribution paladin.

    In most, if not all, non-warcraft games, paladins are holy warriors, but fighters first. Is it the same in the Warcraft lore ? I'm asking because I'm not sure I know enough about the Warcraft lore ?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Strear View Post
    Hi,

    When I see old introduction videos, or the little I know about Warcraft lore, it gives me a weird feeling.
    The reality of paladins being played in wow seems to be made of a wide majority of holy paladins, then healers, even sometimes clothed in some kind of robe.
    Each and every famous paladin I know from the lore seems to be a retribution paladin.

    In most, if not all, non-warcraft games, paladins are holy warriors, but fighters first. Is it the same in the Warcraft lore ? I'm asking because I'm not sure I know enough about the Warcraft lore ?
    The original Knights of the Silver Hand were clerics who took to arms in the name of the Light after the First War. http://www.wowwiki.com/Knights_of_the_Silver_Hand

  3. #3
    Paladins in WoW were originally very twisted and opposite to the presented lore and earliel games of the serie because of a hybrid hater of former EQ fame was in lead of class design who revamped entire Paladin spec 2 weeks prior to game's release, unleashing it entirely untested (The original being very close to how Paladins were represented in lore).

    After that the Paladin lore started to build more around the idea of paladins being clerics and healers rather than knights of Lordaeron.

    WC2 manual quotation:

    "Thus, young Uther took up sword and shield and issued the call to the most pious amongst the Knights of Lordaeron. Many great Knights heeded Uther's beckoning and joined the Order which became known as the Knights of the Silver Hand. With the strength of arms - and faith - possessed by these Paladins, Uther hopes to bear witness to the free people of the Northlands that the Orcish Horde can be cast back into the stygian pits that spawned them. "

    Why it was done? Well, it was easier to mold the lore around then "popular" (as in, everyone else but paladins themselves) ideal of Paladin as nothing more than a heal/buff bot than go against the mainstream and fix the class itself (Something that had to wait until 2.3-2.4). This was hilariously evident when during one of the early BlizzCons the idea of bringing Paladins back to melee was presented prior to Paladin class patch and the major outcry of booing that happened was overwhelming. Unsurprisingly the Paladin patch didn't ultimately fix anything of the traditional lore Paladin spec (Ret) while boosting Holy spec in a big way. Everyone else were happy that status quo remained, except the Paladins.
    Last edited by Wilian; 2013-11-15 at 06:17 AM.
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  4. #4
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Paladins are a class that too many people like to play. Blizzard had it right in WoW beta, before realizing how many people were going to roll one. So they nerfed Retribution into the ground, and focused around Holy. They figure if they're going to have that many Paladins running around, they might as well be healers. Seriously, how many of you rolled a Paladin and couldn't wait to stay in the back of the raid and cast heals? Only experienced players knew fully what a Paladins roll was in raids.

    Shamans have also suffered from this. Depicted as Elemental or Enhancement, even though the majority in the game seem to be Resto. This is a good example of what I'm talking about. Majority of Paladin lore focuses more on Retribution, but rarely if ever touches on them being clerics. Cause the lore would be awesome if a Holy Knight sat in the far distance casting heals. But again lore is lore, and Blizzard was worried that these classes would overpopulate and never spec healer. Blizzard hasn't stopped worrying about that still. Why you think LFR queue times are so bad? Probably why gear is will be universal for all specs in WoD.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I see more ret paladins than I do holy. I don't really see where this is coming from or why it would even matter.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-11-15 at 12:28 PM.

  6. #6
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    Paladins are an order of knights that use the "light" for achieve their goal of justice, yada yada yada.

    Some of this warriors play very defensively and protect others from harm using a shield. Others try their utmost to heal the others afflicted by harm and protect them, others dispense justice with righteous fury especialy against undead and aberrations but everything "evil" is dealt with swiftly the same way.


    Paladins are an realy big order of knights/warriors that do stuff against "evil" while protecting "good" while using "the light".

    Other than that is just over complicating things

  7. #7
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I see more ret paladins than I do holy. I don't really see where this is coming from or why it would even matter.
    The majority are by far Ret, but only at low level or casual content. Where your performance as a dps is less important then as roll playing. You rarely see one in raids. Most guilds will bring 2-3 Holy Paladins, and possibly maybe 1 Ret. The only reason to bring a Ret is for their utility, cause the more Paladins means more Devotion Auras. Holy Paladins are grabbed asap, because they have a short shelf life. It doesn't take long before they get bored and vanish. Most Rets that raid are terrible, and either quit because they can't top meters or they get replaced.

    As for PvP, majority are still Ret but at lower ranks. You also won't find a Ret in RBGs unless they're putting the group together. Holy is found at higher Arena ranks, past 1500. Nobody has a problem bringing in a Holy to RBGs.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    The majority are by far Ret, but only at low level or casual content. Where your performance as a dps is less important then as roll playing. You rarely see one in raids. Most guilds will bring 2-3 Holy Paladins, and possibly maybe 1 Ret. The only reason to bring a Ret is for their utility, cause the more Paladins means more Devotion Auras. Holy Paladins are grabbed asap, because they have a short shelf life. It doesn't take long before they get bored and vanish. Most Rets that raid are terrible, and either quit because they can't top meters or they get replaced.

    As for PvP, majority are still Ret but at lower ranks. You also won't find a Ret in RBGs unless they're putting the group together. Holy is found at higher Arena ranks, past 1500. Nobody has a problem bringing in a Holy to RBGs.
    Most guilds bring 2-3 Holy paladins to raids, really? Yea you are overestimating the worth of holy paladins in comparison to other healers. And dps is the less important role? "Oh look this fight is a dps check, drop healers" is a very common occurance for so many fights this expansion And arena, holy is one of if not the weakest healer. The only reason why you see any is because of how dumb warriors are right now.

    So why exactly is it necessary to make a thread because some people would rather play holy instead of ret? You really think every holy paladin just wishes they could play ret and is forced to play holy? No we like to heal and many of us have most if not all the healers at level cap. Get off this idea that holy is bringing ret down.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-11-15 at 09:46 PM.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Fhi's Avatar
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    Please restrict discussion to paladins in lore. This should not be about why holy or ret is better to play than the other.

    In lore, the human paladins were originally the military/combat wing of the church of the Holy Light. I don't believe there is a clear cut Holy/Protection/Retribution paladin in lore - these specs just make up the game mechanics. A knight of the Silver Hand does all three - defend the innocent, heal the injured, and vanquish evil. Strictly speaking, the priests were the healers, and the paladins were the soldiers.

    In game, the class is split up into three distinct roles merely for gameplay sake. Similar to how we can't actually smite Forsaken players.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Please restrict discussion to paladins in lore. This should not be about why holy or ret is better to play than the other.

    In lore, the human paladins were originally the military/combat wing of the church of the Holy Light. I don't believe there is a clear cut Holy/Protection/Retribution paladin in lore
    Lore is never clear cut; it changes with the game. Death knights are the most obvious example of having several versions of what constitutes the class over the course of Warcraft ---> World of Warcraft.

    In the game at the moment, however, they are very much a mix of cleric and warrior. They use the light to both smite unnatural creatures (as exemplified by the fact that exorcism was only effective against undead and demons for some time) and to heal wounds. However, they also tend to carry around a big hammer or sword (and no, it's not for use in battlefield surgery to remove splinters).

  11. #11
    The Paladin lore seems wonky in general, as they've been almost equally represented as your regular Arthurian-style knight or a kind of cleric. Ironically the same as in most tabletop RPGs, where Paladins are typically based on Arthurian fantasy when they should be more like militant clerics with vows and everything. Not specific to WC but I think one of the few exceptions was in AD&D 2nd edition with one of the Paladin kits that was a very devout religious warrior, in a monastery and all of that, vow of chastity, daily repenting for any perceived sin, etc. Most everything else has been a knight with magical powers.

  12. #12
    Thanks for these explanations and informations, they tend to confirm what I thought, but I now know more in the WoW context. That's clear I have to make the distinction between game mechanics and true lore.

    It just seemed to me, and I wasn't criticizing holy or whatelse as some seemed to feel, that if you try to move closer the lore & game mechanics, " Well known paladins " are all Retribution, and in the reality of the game, most " heroes " among the paladin community (in PVE or PVP) are Holy. I felt some kind of contrast, that's all

    Anyway, considering the lore, even if the DK was meant to be a " hero " class, I guess no one will contest the fact that paladins are a " hero " class. As someone said, they're mostly noble knights fighting for good against evil above anything else in their lives. Holy soldiers.

  13. #13
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    At OP, this is one of my favorite subjects. So i would like the opportunity to throw in my 2 shillings if i may. What comes to mind when we think of the Paladin? For many of us, the image is indelibly linked to that of the medieval knight, the supreme hero of the Middle Ages. Clad in shining armor, his lance gleaming in the morning sun, the knight is the quintessence of gallantry, the champion of the powerless, and the personification of courage - at least as we remember them from history.

    Now being an old D&D player, i could talk at length about the history, ethos, virtues and tithes of a Paladin. But i shan't bore you with such detail. Rather i would just say the in a historical context the Paladin was not confined just to Christendom, for in the annals of King Richard the Lion heart, supreme crusader of his time, he recorded his opponent as the shining example of Gallantry and Chivalry, and that would he have been a Christian would have been a great Crusader King, similarly Saladin recorded Richard in his letters as the greatest military general he had ever clashed with, and in this letter recorded his title as "Melek Inkitar" the King of the English.

    The roots of the Paladin lies in the saxon cavaliers known as Cnith's, whilst crude in appearance and manners these bold warriors attracted attention because of their high quality armor and horsemanship, many aristocratic families would hire Cnith mercenaries to defend their lands from marauders. Whilst still second class citizens the Cnith's became an important part of society and were eventually elevated by the Anglican Church under the title of Knight elevating their status to Aristocracy. With the involvement of the Church, Knighthood was declared a holy calling and in the 11th Century AD the church prompted by troubles in the holy land and partial self interest gave it holy sanction, thus arose the Holy Warrior the "hand of god".

    Though the knight commanded respect, s/he was rarely envied. The life was dangerous and brutal, marked by incessant confrontations and threat of humiliation in combat. Unlike Arthurian legend depicted in modern films, video games and indeed WOW, Knight's would never get to see old age. The rigid chivalric code, which made abstract principles of loyalty more important than life itself, resulted in a death sentence for most knights. Few would live beyond 30.

    Paladin was a title given to Charlemagne's warriors who exceeded in battle against the Saracen horde in the holy land, one such notable Paladin was Roland. Of course Warcraft Paladins do not have any affiliation to church or temple, which is awesome but are written in lore as champions for truth, justice and freedom or to uphold a cause of their people, their culture or society.

    Paladins in Warcraft unlike their historical compatriots or even the lore based figures have been placed in a role which is neither here nor there. The role of a support member of the party. If you could compare it to anything in the modern military sense it would be a combat corpsman or combat engineer, a fixer upper, if s/he is in your team you should have an advantage over your opponent kind of jazz.

    The Paladin class has been pigeon holed into this realm of "team player" where by as retribution you bring support skills such as the ability to off heal, defensive blessings, protection and to assist in damage output. But as explained by other posters, the Paladin is a very charismatic class and attracts a wide variety of players, much more so than say a warlock, due to the lore and the depth of "heroic" feeling. It is because of this, that blizzard likes to keep retribution in check.

    There is nothing wrong with Holy Paladins but inherently Paladins wear heavy armor, wield 2 handed hammers and invoke the power of light to judge, heal and protect, holy paladins also tick that box, some what. In games like D&D, your Paladin can be a Chevalier (think Tirion), an Equerry an expert at mounted combat, an Errant adventurer (this Max of Northshire)out to seek glory for his cause or a Medician ( this i support would be the box for holy paladins).

    Logically speaking, if retribution was buffed to the level it should be, no one would want to play a warrior or lolknight. Hence we must be kept in check otherwise the harry potters out there would rue the day they crossed the Paladin xD.

    And i suppose that niche is a great niche if it were Paladins who did it alone, but now that slot can be filled by Shamans, Priests, Druids, Monks and the abilities they possess outshine many of our abilities, but let this not daunt you. We will still keep championing the cause of the holy light! You can nerf us, you can put cool downs on our words of glory, you can take away our auras and nerf our damage or aoe healing, but in every battleground, in every arena, in every dungeon and raid you will find us, fighting on... We shall never surrender!

    Finally to all my brothers and sisters fighting the good fight, lose not morale with the endless stream of ridicule thrown our way, instead take heart from this one poem by Alfred Lord Tennyson:

    "My good blade carves the casques of men,
    My tough lance thrusteth sure,
    My strength is as the strength of ten,
    Because my heart is pure."
    Last edited by mmocbc36cf2888; 2013-11-16 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #14
    Warchief Felarion's Avatar
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    I think most paladins in warcraft are Retirbution. Let's face facts, paladins in warcraft are alwyas present in heavy battle armor with big hammer or sword. And this is why i like this class so much Also entire light thing evolved in warcraft i think. At first it was pure faith and do what is right. But early blood knights and scarlet crusaders bend light to their will, to do what THEY believe is right.

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