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  1. #1

    A long winded essay that will most likely be ignored/attacked/ridiculed

    Hello, I'm a long time (classic-present) player who spends a little too much time lurking forums. I know my words will likely fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes as the case may be) but hell, I'm bored.

    As i said, I spend too much time lurking around here. In doing this I see all the trite over exaggerated claims frequently used and I want to share my opinions on some of them.

    First, one that particularly gets under my skin. Popularity does not equal quality. Just because the game had more subscribers at one point in time versus another does not definitively prove that point in the game was in any way "better" than another. The simple truth, World of Warcraft has regularly been improved upon over the years. While any one individual may or may not find the changes enjoyable, to say the game has gotten "worse" since a certain point is a matter of opinion. Using popularity to justify your opinion is akin to saying Justin Bieber is a "better" musician than Mozart because he's so much more popular. All those people couldn't be wrong could they? In short what people really mean to say when they claim "x had so many more subscribers. It was such a better game see!" is something like "I found x to be the most enjoyable period of the game and would like that style of gameplay to return." Objective qualities of the game like amount of content, graphics, bugs and accessibility have been improved upon continuously since day one. Just because you (and possibly others)subjectively enjoyed a period over the present does not prove anything about the quality of the game at any period.

    Now to touch on a issue somewhat related to my last point, nothing blizzard can do will ever bring you back to the nostalgic epic feelings you had from when you first played. Of course the game was huge and epic back then. It was all brand new! Ignorance is bliss, truly. The more you know about a subject (wow for example) the more critical an opinion you are able to draw. It's very easy to look back to when you started and say "everything felt epic and fresh and I had so much fun just doing X Instead of now where all I do is Y Blizzard needs to bring X back!" Ever think maybe going back and doing X might actually not be fun anymore? I personally have very fond memories of getting attuned to various raids or crafting onyxia scale cloaks to do nefarian with but really, was it good for the game? What's the point of artificially gating content?

    Which brings me to my next point, exclusivity of content is not a good thing. All it does is serve to inflate the egos of people with access to it. If you feel that whether or not others are able see the same content affects your enjoyment of said content, I would advise you take a look at your priorities. How does what anyone else do detract from your experience, honestly? Oh you don't feel special anymore because everyone gets to raid? Hell, I feel sorry for people that only experience the content through LFR, but it certainly doesn't take away from my enjoyment of heroic progression. Try making the game about competing with yourself to improve your play, gear, or whatever metric you want to use as opposed to turning everything into a dick measuring contest with everyone else. I'm personally far more interested in optimizing my play rather than fretting about how the LFR raider has purples damnit! I take far more pride in my ability to play (and I'm far from anything special) than I do my gear because I know that even if a baddie bought an account with equal gear I'd still out preform them.

    Last point I want to touch on, no one forces you to participate in any aspect of the game. You literally could spend your entire time in wow doing absolutely nothing. Just log in and sit there. Why anyone would do that I'm not sure but the fact remains you could do it. I have an uncle that used to play, he had no clue what he was doing 99% of the time. He spent his entire wow career leveling alts, maxing professions and playing the AH. Never raided, never did 5 mans, never followed any wow news or anything. I honestly think he enjoyed the game far more than most of us because he never knew any better. No stress about gearing up or getting that MMR higher or joining a guild or anything. Just blissfully running around enjoying the game.

    In closing, I think far too many people enjoy wow for ego sparing reasons that allow them to feel superior to others. As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.

    tl/dr: popularity != quality, nostalgia is more powerful than any content bliz can make, exclusivity of content is bad, no one forces you to do anything in wow, stop making everything a dick measuring contest (in wow and real life)

    Since it will likely be asked, as I said I've been playing since classic. I was in a top raiding guild on my server and participated in various server first kills ranging from chromaggus to yogg-saron. I've been 2k+ rated in all arena brackets and RBGs at different points throughout the game. I don't consider myself an elite player by any means. Just a long time player. Currently I play in a rather casual guild (9 hrs/week raiding) that is 5/14H
    Last edited by KLZoey; 2013-11-16 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Typos drive me crazy in my own posts

  2. #2
    High Overlord Disreali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.
    I agree with this. Just play the game the way you want to, enjoy it as much as you can, and you'll have a great time.

  3. #3
    Warchief SourceOfInfection's Avatar
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    Well fuck if you all want some sources here's some websites. I haven't read them so fuck you if you blame me for bad info.

  4. #4
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    I'm sure any number of people would agree with this sentiment; play the game the way you want to enjoy it, and don't worry about how other people choose to play.



    Until they realize that people fielding this sentiment would also decry the notion of denying people flying mounts till 6.1. So I'm sure you'll see some opposition, OP.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2013-11-16 at 07:24 AM.
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord
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    I came here looking for a good reason to bash you left and right but you failed to give me anything to ridicule or attack. Ok maybe i never intended to attack you

    Anyhow

    De gustibus non est disputandum i think it is, my latin is a bit rusty so took it from wikipedia.

    The quote is funny because it is exactly what we do on this forum. Repeatedly. We debate that which cannot be usefully debated. The taste of individuals (or preference if you prefer) in a manner where we try to convince each other that their opinion is wrong or flawed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    popularity != quality
    I agree with this portion of your post.

    The rest of it seems to be one of two things, either: creating a template you can easily apply to people you disagree with, supplying them with perceptions and motivations that suit the arguments you are most capable of fielding, or explaining your personal opinion as objective fact.

  7. #7
    Warchief Blitzo's Avatar
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    Do what ever makes you happy while doing it - As long it isn't at the expense of others fits the bill here pretty nicely

    I think that's a quote, but I can't be asked to look up who said it.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    I agree with this portion of your post.

    The rest of it seems to be one of two things, either: creating a template you can easily apply to people you disagree with, supplying them with perceptions and motivations that suit the arguments you are most capable of fielding, or explaining your personal opinion as objective fact.
    Did this part of my post not catch your eye "...and I want to share my opinions on some of them."

    I openly admit these are my opinions before presenting any of them. Please show me the line where I claim any of this objective fact.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Bieber isn't a musician, he's a singer. HUGE difference.
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  10. #10
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Bieber isn't a musician, he's a singer. HUGE difference.
    Is it? Is a song not a piece of music performed with the vocal cord as an instrument (as well as a piece of poetry yada yada)

  11. #11
    Banned finskee's Avatar
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    OP, I agree with everything you just said 100%. That is all.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    Did this part of my post not catch your eye "...and I want to share my opinions on some of them."

    I openly admit these are my opinions before presenting any of them. Please show me the line where I claim any of this objective fact.
    I noticed that line, but the spirit of that phrase isn't maintained.

    you present other things as objective fact which simply aren't. Specifically regarding exclusivity of content.

    Also the indication that WoW has been improved upon objectively, which also is a subjective judgement. You then set the opinions of those that disagree with this as being subjective, while retaining the position that considering them improvements is objective. If something can be judged objectively, then there is a wrong or right; if you can allow that some impressions of a thing are subjective rather than incorrect, then all impressions of that thing are also subjective as they require an observer to interpret them.

  13. #13
    This will probably be downvoted, but...

    *spammed with upvotes by people that didn't read it*

  14. #14
    I would argue that the measurable improvements to "quality" made were made specifically because they were measurable. These are the low hanging fruits when you want to improve something with the funds available. I also don't like the way you dismiss exclusivity of content by calling it a 'dick measuring contest'. I think competition for the best gear and the "prestige" that may have come with it was very healthy for the game. I too enjoyed honing my skills as a player in wow, and I don't see how reducing competition helps spur players to strive to become better.

    That being said, I don't play wow anymore and probably never will again at this point, and I wouldn't have the time or energy to play the game I want.
    Last edited by spandex; 2013-11-16 at 08:12 AM.

  15. #15
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Also the indication that WoW has been improved upon objectively, which also is a subjective judgement. You then set the opinions of those that disagree with this as being subjective, while retaining the position that considering them improvements is objective. If something can be judged objectively, then there is a wrong or right; if you can allow that some impressions of a thing are subjective rather than incorrect, then all impressions of that thing are also subjective as they require an observer to interpret them.
    Did you actually read said paragraph?

    Objective improvements he claim are graphic quality, amount of content, amount of bugs and accessibility. These can be measured. He fully acknowledges that none of these are subjectively good, there is a subjective evaluation of these factors. For example you might have enjoyed arcane missiles channeling and not firing so that bug no longer applying could be annoying (silly example is silly but hopefully fun)

    The graphic quality of a pandaren is greater than that of a gnome. This is objective, any claim different is absurd. Subjective is however how you feel about the difference. You may like the gnome better. Your evaluation of which looks better is yours and subjective.

    There is more content but you may not like the content, the objective (amount of content) and the subjective (liking of content) are disconnected entities

    I disagree on accessibility but mostly because that is by nature subjective.

    At least that is how i read that paragraph

  16. #16
    High Overlord toomes211's Avatar
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    I honestly expected an attack or long winded arbitrary anger about something like no flying.

    Instead, logical well formulated thoughts. Would read again.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    Last point I want to touch on, no one forces you to participate in any aspect of the game. You literally could spend your entire time in wow doing absolutely nothing. Just log in and sit there. Why anyone would do that I'm not sure but the fact remains you could do it. I have an uncle that used to play, he had no clue what he was doing 99% of the time. He spent his entire wow career leveling alts, maxing professions and playing the AH. Never raided, never did 5 mans, never followed any wow news or anything. I honestly think he enjoyed the game far more than most of us because he never knew any better. No stress about gearing up or getting that MMR higher or joining a guild or anything. Just blissfully running around enjoying the game.
    I think that this is what irks me the most. Since burning crusade and arguably classic naxx ilevel has inflated too much. You can't just enjoy aspects of the game anymore. You can't just go from questing gear to being a bg hero anymore, crafting has become "funless" and worthless for progressing your character very quickly, gold is an almost worthless commodity, from a designer's point of view flying mounts are a nightmare for pvp and pve, itemized resilience/pvp power was dumb from the start, and the separation of pve from pvp to adding full progression through pvp made pvp a grind to even have a chance. To top it all off unique items with extremely fun powers have no longer been supported and have all but disappeared.
    Welcome to New Blizzard where everything ages backwards, dead servers are left gasping for breath, homogenization is disguised as uniqueness, leveling mirrors the progression of travel in the last 150 years, and gold is just a nuisance.

  18. #18
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    In closing, I think far too many people enjoy wow for ego sparing reasons that allow them to feel superior to others. As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.
    Good post, especially the part I quoted. If I could wave a magic wand and do anything at all to improve the community it would be to make it so that people are more interested in their game and less interested in what everyone else--who they'll likely never meet--is doing. Thanks for writing all of that down.
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  19. #19
    Agreed popularity =/= quality. Funny corollary people ask for stuff that makes things easy but stick around for quality. My guess is the reason WoW keeps bleeding subs is Blizz is adding easier content but reducing quality in the process. Got to have a reason to play.
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  20. #20
    this quote has been edited to remove arguments that have little to do with the topic regarding the games popularity.

    Hopefully without that additional conversation mixed in, I can make the point a little more clearly.

    The simple truth, World of Warcraft has regularly been improved upon over the years. While any one individual may or may not find the changes enjoyable, to say the game has gotten "worse" since a certain point is a matter of opinion. Objective qualities of the game like amount of content, graphics, bugs and accessibility have been improved upon continuously since day one. Just because you (and possibly others)subjectively enjoyed a period over the present does not prove anything about the quality of the game at any period.
    While amount of content and bugs are objective, changes to graphics, and accessibility are subjective. Regarding graphics, what goes into the graphics labor technology and skill wise is objective, but the end result isn't. There are a number of ways something can be of higher technical quality but be of less practical value.

    Regarding accessibility: Raids have become more accessible, but the game play itself has not. There are a number of different types of pvp, raiding and grouping: each with a name that doesn't really indicate anything about the activity itself. A player now has a number of different abilities, several of which just don't deserve a key bind. Player stats have gone from very descriptive "weapons skill", "to hit", "chance for X" to things with less useful terms like "expertise" and "mastery". There are several hard restrictions on certain activities such as questing in higher level questing zones, or access to various queue tiers, that require the player to have information before they encounter the hard restriction that they are not given during regular gameplay.

    Anyway, I recommend checking out the official WoW forums "new player help and guides" section to see what sort of problems new players have when attempting to join the game before making any strong assertions about the games accessibility.

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