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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angella View Post
    Agreed popularity =/= quality. Funny corollary people ask for stuff that makes things easy but stick around for quality. My guess is the reason WoW keeps bleeding subs is Blizz is adding easier content but reducing quality in the process. Got to have a reason to play.
    I doubt easy bleeds anything. In part because i do not see the game as easier now than it was in vanilla or in tbc. There are options now that are potentially easier (if anything can be easier than standing still firing frostbolts, running a little from sons, returning to standing still chaining frostbolts.. or flashing heals while others regen until oom then wanding a judged boss while others heal until full mana (with breaks for emergencies) repeat for 45 minutes. In the world of the inept the not totally clueless are kings) .. potentially easier because the quality of resources have gone from rumor or hearsay to informed and tested and potentially easier because some have kept getting better.. but not so objectively easier

  2. #22
    Mechagnome
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    I guess your the guy who says 5 mans now are better than ever

    I mean who loves the frag fest 5 minute dungeon
    Why are Dungeons and Scenarios mash-fests that take less time than the actual queue or wait list? What a waste of content design...

  3. #23
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    Hello, I'm a long time (classic-present) player who spends a little too much time lurking forums. I know my words will likely fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes as the case may be) but hell, I'm bored.

    As i said, I spend too much time lurking around here. In doing this I see all the trite over exaggerated claims frequently used and I want to share my opinions on some of them.

    First, one that particularly gets under my skin. Popularity does not equal quality. Just because the game had more subscribers at one point in time versus another does not definitively prove that point in the game was in any way "better" than another. The simple truth, World of Warcraft has regularly been improved upon over the years. While any one individual may or may not find the changes enjoyable, to say the game has gotten "worse" since a certain point is a matter of opinion. Using popularity to justify your opinion is akin to saying Justin Bieber is a "better" musician than Mozart because he's so much more popular. All those people couldn't be wrong could they? In short what people really mean to say when they claim "x had so many more subscribers. It was such a better game see!" is something like "I found x to be the most enjoyable period of the game and would like that style of gameplay to return." Objective qualities of the game like amount of content, graphics, bugs and accessibility have been improved upon continuously since day one. Just because you (and possibly others)subjectively enjoyed a period over the present does not prove anything about the quality of the game at any period.

    Now to touch on a issue somewhat related to my last point, nothing blizzard can do will ever bring you back to the nostalgic epic feelings you had from when you first played. Of course the game was huge and epic back then. It was all brand new! Ignorance is bliss, truly. The more you know about a subject (wow for example) the more critical an opinion you are able to draw. It's very easy to look back to when you started and say "everything felt epic and fresh and I had so much fun just doing X Instead of now where all I do is Y Blizzard needs to bring X back!" Ever think maybe going back and doing X might actually not be fun anymore? I personally have very fond memories of getting attuned to various raids or crafting onyxia scale cloaks to do nefarian with but really, was it good for the game? What's the point of artificially gating content?

    Which brings me to my next point, exclusivity of content is not a good thing. All it does is serve to inflate the egos of people with access to it. If you feel that whether or not others are able see the same content affects your enjoyment of said content, I would advise you take a look at your priorities. How does what anyone else do detract from your experience, honestly? Oh you don't feel special anymore because everyone gets to raid? Hell, I feel sorry for people that only experience the content through LFR, but it certainly doesn't take away from my enjoyment of heroic progression. Try making the game about competing with yourself to improve your play, gear, or whatever metric you want to use as opposed to turning everything into a dick measuring contest with everyone else. I'm personally far more interested in optimizing my play rather than fretting about how the LFR raider has purples damnit! I take far more pride in my ability to play (and I'm far from anything special) than I do my gear because I know that even if a baddie bought an account with equal gear I'd still out preform them.

    Last point I want to touch on, no one forces you to participate in any aspect of the game. You literally could spend your entire time in wow doing absolutely nothing. Just log in and sit there. Why anyone would do that I'm not sure but the fact remains you could do it. I have an uncle that used to play, he had no clue what he was doing 99% of the time. He spent his entire wow career leveling alts, maxing professions and playing the AH. Never raided, never did 5 mans, never followed any wow news or anything. I honestly think he enjoyed the game far more than most of us because he never knew any better. No stress about gearing up or getting that MMR higher or joining a guild or anything. Just blissfully running around enjoying the game.

    In closing, I think far too many people enjoy wow for ego sparing reasons that allow them to feel superior to others. As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.

    tl/dr: popularity != quality, nostalgia is more powerful than any content bliz can make, exclusivity of content is bad, no one forces you to do anything in wow, stop making everything a dick measuring contest (in wow and real life)

    Since it will likely be asked, as I said I've been playing since classic. I was in a top raiding guild on my server and participated in various server first kills ranging from chromaggus to yogg-saron. I've been 2k+ rated in all arena brackets and RBGs at different points throughout the game. I don't consider myself an elite player by any means. Just a long time player. Currently I play in a rather casual guild (9 hrs/week raiding) that is 5/14H
    I feel a deep affinity with you, OP. Very similar position, played since Vanilla, made my own casual guild (6hr/week) in MoP, and I share all your positions. On the progress level, competition is good. Looking at anything beneath your hardcore raiding competition is only bad for your perception of the game. And even then, raiding is usually more fun when you simply look at your team, your enjoyment, and focus on that group experience without getting frustrated or overjoyed because you killed it 1st, 5th, or last. Stopping to care about the progress race (even if it's just the realm progress, many raiders focus on this) has made the game so much more fun for me and many others I know. Once you realize it really doesn't matter at all and nobody gives a damn, things start looking brighter.

    And we need more posts like this. People need to get some perspective around here.

  4. #24
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spandex View Post
    I think competition for the best gear and the "prestige" that may have come with it was very healthy for the game.
    Funny thing is, no one ever complimented me on my T6, my Sunwell gear, my heroic whatever-you-name-it stuff. BUT, they whispered to me way back when my shaman was only my alt about that awesome blue quality chest that I was wearing and asked where I got it. It was a reward from a questline in Netherstorm.

  5. #25
    Ya, I am going to attack and ridicule this... but not so much your post but the attitude that drives such laziness and how its bred into our young adults and kids in today's society.

    In closing, I think far too many people enjoy wow for ego sparing reasons that allow them to feel superior to others.
    I fail to see the negative in this...

    In fact I think because our kids and the young adults have no desire to push themselves versus the competition and would rather sit back and get "competition ribbons" at field day instead of 1st 2nd or 3rd place trophies... it has destroyed out ability as a country to do anything as good as other countries.
    We have a lot of talent in our young adults but very very little drive to succeed... i see WoW and how it has morphed into a the dumb ed down pathetic version it has become as a microcosm of our country now.

    Everyone wants instant gratification and no one wants to work to be better at anything...

    As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.
    I can not tell you how wrong headed and false this statement is... now if you are one of the millions that feel you should be given everything you want without any effort (Obama/Democrats/Generation X and whatever the new pathetic generation is called now) and you have no desire to become better or improve yourself then by all means your statement is true.

    Here is a slogan for you and your ilk... When you stop comparing you stop caring!

    tl/dr: popularity != quality, nostalgia is more powerful than any content bliz can make, exclusivity of content is bad, no one forces you to do anything in wow, stop making everything a dick measuring contest (in wow and real life)
    You just do not get it do you? Life is a dick measuring contest... and it always will be, well for those who do not want to live off the government and be able to move out of mommy's house that is...
    Not sure if you have a job or ever have had one past a Mcdonalds, but let me break it down for you... in real companies they hire the people that actually give a damn and push themselves to succeed.
    Shocking I know...

    Here I will try and educate you but clearly it wont even be read because you will have to actually take 2 mins out of your day to read this and that would make it an accomplishment to you so you wont want to do it...

    I am a manager at a Home Deopot, You and another guy come in wanting on my management team. You and the other went to the same school but he got straight A's and you got C's... he was a Eagle Scout, on the debate team, on the annual team, he worked with some charities, he had a decent amount of extracurricular activities and in all of them tried to do the best he could. You did none of those things, you sat on your ass and asked for it all to be handed to you and your transcripts along with background checks and references bare that out. When previous employers were called they said you did your job and generally were on time, when asked about the other I was told he was always early for work with a great attitude and strove to be the best in everything he did.

    Who the f do you think is going to get hired in that situation? You? ROFL
    You with your, give it all to me because I am me attitude? Or the guy that busted his ass and competed against those around him to become a more valuable asset and better person?


    Since it will likely be asked, as I said I've been playing since classic. I was in a top raiding guild on my server and participated in various server first kills ranging from chromaggus to yogg-saron. I've been 2k+ rated in all arena brackets and RBGs at different points throughout the game. I don't consider myself an elite player by any means. Just a long time player. Currently I play in a rather casual guild (9 hrs/week raiding) that is 5/14H
    I love how you say stop making this a dick measuring contest and then in the next paragraph you whip your dick out and show it to us...

    /Pathetic post and pathetic mindset
    Last edited by Larry01; 2013-11-16 at 12:39 PM.

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    Hello, I'm a long time (classic-present) player who spends a little too much time lurking forums. I know my words will likely fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes as the case may be) but hell, I'm bored.
    Sad for you. But you know... Just move over ? It's only a game.

    I also play since vanilla and still highly enjoy this game. But I won't make a thread to tell it because nobody cares of a single point of view.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    Here is a slogan for you and your ilk... When you stop comparing you stop caring!
    Be the best that YOU can be would be a better slogan. Spending your life comparing yourself to other people is spending a life looking at failure, there is always someone better (well obviously only almost always but for all practical purposes always) that you will fail to measure up to. Your competition should be with yourself to improve in all areas that matter to you, you should always strive to be better than yesterday.

  8. #28
    Epic! finskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    Ya, I am going to attack and ridicule this... etc
    Comparison is the death of joy. -- Mark Twain

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    The simple truth, World of Warcraft has regularly been improved upon over the years.
    you seem to have confused "simple truth" and "opinion". just because you believe it has improved, doesnt mean other people do.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  10. #30
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    Is it? Is a song not a piece of music performed with the vocal cord as an instrument (as well as a piece of poetry yada yada)
    In my eyes a musician makes and plays his own music, Bieber hardly makes his own songs... at least not the "good" songs.
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  11. #31
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    you seem to have confused "simple truth" and "opinion". just because you believe it has improved, doesnt mean other people do.
    You cannot seriously be trying to refute the objective improvements to WoW over the years, be it visually, mechanically (UI, queue tools, etc) and just in terms of everything but the core aspect you disagree with, maybe difficulty or raiding. The game has been VASTLY improved over the years, anyone debating this is a bit delusional. You may not like the way the orientation of where the game is headed, but objectively, it has become better in many aspects.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    Ya, I am going to attack and ridicule this... but not so much your post but the attitude that drives such laziness and how its bred into our young adults and kids in today's society.



    I fail to see the negative in this...

    In fact I think because our kids and the young adults have no desire to push themselves versus the competition and would rather sit back and get "competition ribbons" at field day instead of 1st 2nd or 3rd place trophies... it has destroyed out ability as a country to do anything as good as other countries.
    We have a lot of talent in our young adults but very very little drive to succeed... i see WoW and how it has morphed into a the dumb ed down pathetic version it has become as a microcosm of our country now.

    Everyone wants instant gratification and no one wants to work to be better at anything...



    I can not tell you how wrong headed and false this statement is... now if you are one of the millions that feel you should be given everything you want without any effort (Obama/Democrats/Generation X and whatever the new pathetic generation is called now) and you have no desire to become better or improve yourself then by all means your statement is true.

    Here is a slogan for you and your ilk... When you stop comparing you stop caring!



    You just do not get it do you? Life is a dick measuring contest... and it always will be, well for those who do not want to live off the government and be able to move out of mommy's house that is...
    Not sure if you have a job or ever have had one past a Mcdonalds, but let me break it down for you... in real companies they hire the people that actually give a damn and push themselves to succeed.
    Shocking I know...

    Here I will try and educate you but clearly it wont even be read because you will have to actually take 2 mins out of your day to read this and that would make it an accomplishment to you so you wont want to do it...

    I am a manager at a Home Deopot, You and another guy come in wanting on my management team. You and the other went to the same school but he got straight A's and you got C's... he was a Eagle Scout, on the debate team, on the annual team, he worked with some charities, he had a decent amount of extracurricular activities and in all of them tried to do the best he could. You did none of those things, you sat on your ass and asked for it all to be handed to you and your transcripts along with background checks and references bare that out. When previous employers were called they said you did your job and generally were on time, when asked about the other I was told he was always early for work with a great attitude and strove to be the best in everything he did.

    Who the f do you think is going to get hired in that situation? You? ROFL
    You with your, give it all to me because I am me attitude? Or the guy that busted his ass and competed against those around him to become a more valuable asset and better person?




    I love how you say stop making this a dick measuring contest and then in the next paragraph you whip your dick out and show it to us...

    /Pathetic post and pathetic mindset
    I feel you've missed the point of the OP completely, and instead went off on a rant about competitiveness in real life. I sense a lot of bitterness in you somehow. As for your example: the guy getting straight As, the Eagle Scout and whatnot - he's not going to stick around at home depot, he's got better things to do and achieve. Because noone is going to bust their ass working a menial job at a home depot. So really, your example pretty much sucks.

    OP made a reasonable post illustrating how many in the WoW community lose of sight of just enjoying the game versus eyeing what everyone else is doing, that is all. Your reply has little to nothing to do with that.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLZoey View Post
    As with everything in life, you'll most likely enjoy yourself more once you stop comparing yourself to everyone else.
    Agreed. Take MoP's ample supply of dailies and the freshly removed cap on how many you can finish in a day. I took my time, slowly and relaxedly questing my way to exalted on all of them. I didn't feel a need to do every daily quest every day, I rather picked a faction or two and did them, then switched to another faction after exalting the former. Shaohao's reputation I'm not even interested in as it requires activity I consider anything but fun/compelling. Makes me sad we're not getting that many dailies anymore, just for people who inflict artificial requirements to their gameplay.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    Be the best that YOU can be would be a better slogan. Spending your life comparing yourself to other people is spending a life looking at failure, there is always someone better (well obviously only almost always but for all practical purposes always) that you will fail to measure up to. Your competition should be with yourself to improve in all areas that matter to you, you should always strive to be better than yesterday.
    While the other dude went off on a weird hostile tangent, this reply blows my mind. How on earth do you think you can tell if you need improvement without a point of reference?

    The guy in the cave eating raw meat probably thinks he's doing great just killing a bunny or whatever and hopefully not getting worms until he sees the guy in the next cave over cooking his food with fire.

    As you said, there is always someone better, and in real life you should strive to exceed in all things, not wallow in mediocrity. Now whether this applies to video games is an entirely different subject, I will admit . . . people have hobbies for relaxation and enjoyment, and should approach them as such.

  14. #34
    High Overlord
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    I agree with most of your excellently worded post (you have a very compact and clear thinking).
    But, I believe that, the cock-fighting can't be avoided in any kind of community, and your "spoils of war" must be "shining bright". In WoW you don't play alone.

  15. #35
    When it comes to exclusivity of content, I agree and disagree.

    I think that the end game content, the "core" content of the expansion should be seen by everyone and their grandmother. That's the story, that's the core of the experience and putting artificial barriers to that seems silly. I wouldn't be against a "story mode" for dungeons where dungeons are even easier than nerfed LFR but where you get no loot whatsoever, you're just there to see the story and experience the raid.

    But, when it comes to everything besides the endgame content meaning all of the leveling process, world events, special events, daily quests and such, I think a form of exclusivity would benefit the game. I don't mean exclusivity in the sense of "you need to have x ilevel to do this" or "you need to be this skilled to do this", but exclusivity in the sense of you needing to be in the right place at the right time. What I would like to see is a degree of randomization in all of the content besides the core endgame content that would make the world seem alive and changing - currently the biggest issue with leveling is that it's always the exact same experience down to the NPCs and mobs you skill. More random events of all sorts happening, more random quests, more quests with randomized story, etc. would help the game immensely, I feel.
    If, if, Blizzard does the story right, Warlords of Draenor has the potential to be the best expansion story-wise we've ever had.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    You cannot seriously be trying to refute the objective improvements to WoW over the years, be it visually, mechanically (UI, queue tools, etc) and just in terms of everything but the core aspect you disagree with, maybe difficulty or raiding. The game has been VASTLY improved over the years, anyone debating this is a bit delusional. You may not like the way the orientation of where the game is headed, but objectively, it has become better in many aspects.
    delusional? nope. i just differentiate between improvements in gameplay and "quality of life" changes. some people might say that levelling today is better than it was in vanilla. it has certainly been "smoothed out". the zones have been made into nice and tidy little routes that you have to follow. do i think that makes it better? not a chance. i think its the complete opposite of what you should see in an RPG.

    you see? its my opinion. versus the opinion of the OP. except he was basing his entire argument on a starting premise that was supposedly a fact, but was actually just his opinion. and lets face it, if WoW really were "better" today than it were in, lets say, LK, why are so many people no longer playing it? maybe more people share my opinion, that it isnt better, than the OP.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    delusional? nope. i just differentiate between improvements in gameplay and "quality of life" changes. some people might say that levelling today is better than it was in vanilla. it has certainly been "smoothed out". the zones have been made into nice and tidy little routes that you have to follow. do i think that makes it better? not a chance. i think its the complete opposite of what you should see in an RPG.

    you see? its my opinion. versus the opinion of the OP. except he was basing his entire argument on a starting premise that was supposedly a fact, but was actually just his opinion. and lets face it, if WoW really were "better" today than it were in, lets say, LK, why are so many people no longer playing it? maybe more people share my opinion, that it isnt better, than the OP.
    That's pretty much the whole problem with his post. People who agree with him, and need to feel that changes are objective improvements, are probably just comforted by someone who agrees with them.

  18. #38
    your argumentation is splendid, 10/10 would read again - you deliver better essays on here than I do in classes.

  19. #39
    this was a really nice essay that was not ignored. you points you state here are were valid, thank you.

  20. #40
    I agree with most of what you said. Including the part about most people disagreeing with you. That doesn't make it wrong though.

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