Thread: Reroll from Dk

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  1. #21
    If you don't already have an army of alts then there is no reason at all to not be prepared. Don't listen to the people telling you to wait until the expansion to decide, you can spend a small amount of time to level alts right now and leveling alts is pretty fun because you get to learn new mechanics and playstyles. Here is a general guideline I would follow if I was thinking of rerolling to better the guild next expansion.

    1.) First you need to decide the first set of heirloom leveling gear to get. This speeds up the process so much and you want to make sure you purchase wisely as the JP/Honor required to purchase all the gear is quite a time investment on your main. I would probably get the leather and cloth sets to start off with. Leather gets you coverage for leveling rogue, monk, druid, hunter and shaman. Cloth gets you coverage for priest, warlock, mage (caster druid if you prefer). Remember that while leveling you are so overpowered that the only thing you care about is the experience bonus on the gear, so if your resto/boomkin druid is wearing cloth intellect gear it is perfectly fine.
    2.) Pick a class that has a lot of coverage or is traditionally strong in PvE to start with. I would probably say it is a safe bet to go with druid (can fill all four roles), then warlock, then mage. Outside of that it is up to you.
    3.) Start leveling! Quest in the open world while you wait in dungeon queue. You will abandon a lot of quests and spend time moving to new zones because of how fast you level.
    4.) Once you get the character close enough to 90 to be comfortable just drop them and start the next. 87 or 88 or so is close enough for your purpose that a week before the expansion hits you can finish leveling easily and be ready for launch.
    5.) Forget professions. They will slow you down and they will be in flux next expansion anyway.


    It really does not take any time at all to level a character now. I would rely on the free 90 character to either roll something that you find tedious to level, a class that might suck bad but you find fun and want to just play as an alt, or for last minute OPness.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    stopped reading here, please delete your DK and never enter that forum branch again. Ever.
    Please don't do this, if a blue tells you that DKs problem isn't our retarded way of scaling it doesn't mean that they're right. It's a way to shut the masses up so that there won't be a need to pay attention to the class.

    And yes, i know it sounds awkwardly conspiracy theory-ish, but it really isn't. Were not bottom of the barrel DPS, so there is no actual need to overhaul our specs while that dev time is better used elsewhere.
    Last edited by Pickwickman; 2013-11-21 at 07:19 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DkWarrior View Post
    Hello everyone.I'm a dps Dk and I'm thinking on to reroll an other class in WoD. Currently we have really bad scaling with gear.
    I'm willing to bet you're just parroting other people and don't really understand what that means yourself.

    I'm in our raid team, but because raid system will be better ( heroic10-20, mystic20) and we will get new dps players in the next content I really feel that i need to reroll to something better if things remain unchanged in WoD(especially if I want to keep my raid spot).
    The only way you're going to lose your raid spot is if you are bad. If you are a good player, no matter the class, you're not in danger of losing anything unless your guild is going for a world first... which I'm assuming you're not or you wouldn't be posting this.

    We nearly at the bottom most of the fights, and it's just boring because i think i do everything what i can but the results are dissapointing. So I'm just curious about other ppl's maybe feel the same , and if they do which class they want to choose.
    Worry less about what "we" are doing and worry more about what "you" are doing. If you are near the bottom, it's you, not the class.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neos300 View Post
    Worry less about what "we" are doing and worry more about what "you" are doing. If you are near the bottom, it's you, not the class.
    This is the probably the most rational thing I've read on these forums in a long time! Kudos Neos!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    stopped reading here, please delete your DK and never enter that forum branch again. Ever.
    Lol, DKs always got problem with scalling in last tier raids. We always shine at beginning and then we failing behind other classes due scalling. Are you sure you play Dk and are in right forum?

  6. #26
    It doesn't look like DKs scale badly at all from some number crunching I did a few days ago, at least not in the 56X range. Here are some results from Patchwerk sims of people on my realm. Obviously this is only as accurate as each module is so I'm not saying that this stuff is gospel but if we want to talk about this sort of thing then SimC seems like the best tool for the job.

    DK (me) Frost DW and Mastersimple 310888 DPS ilvl 562
    STR:7.11, AP:2.66, EXP:7.86, Hit:4.41, InvHit:2.33, Crit:3.40, Haste:2.87, Mastery:4.57, MHDPS:8.57, OHDPS:4.31

    Warrior Fury 305425 DPS ilvl561
    STR:5.09, AP:2.24,EXP:12.41, Hit:14.01, InvHit:2.25, Crit:5.55, Haste:2.67, Mastery:4.55, MHDPS:10.96, OHDPS:4.88

    Rogue Subtlety 315488 DPS ilvl 565
    AGI:8.89, AP:2.39, EXP:4.46, Hit:3.31, InvHit:2.77, Crit:3.42, Haste:3.98, Mastery:3.53, MHDPS:10.43, OHDPS:2.25

    Hunter BM 308511 DPS ilvl 568
    AGI:8.94, AP:3.32, EXP:5.96, Hit:5.69, Crit:3.55, Haste:3.7, Mastery:3.77, MHDPS:6.43

    Warlock Destruction 338954 DPS ilvl571
    Int:8.40, SP:6.38, Hit:8.60, Crit:5.19, Haste:6.12, Mastery:5.07

    Mage Fire 304353 DPS ilvl564
    Int:8.18, SP:6.16, Hit:9.89, Crit:5.26. Haste:5.47, Mastery:5.21

    Priest Shadow 272776 DPS ilvl567
    Int:6.94, SP:5.27. Hit:8.34, Crit:4.09, Haste:2.46, Mastery:4.66


    I also gained 1 iilvl on Wednesday my latest sim was reporting an extra 6k damage (317009 DPS) from that 1 ilvl. What it looks like the problem is that the OP outliers are just much better at cleave and AoE rather than gaining more stats and dps from gear than we do.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    then why are dks mid to bottom on most bosses?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rerecros View Post
    then why are dks mid to bottom on most bosses?
    No idea, just looks like it wasn't what people like to blame for it though. Sustained AoE/Cleave would be my bet if those SimC results are accurate.

  9. #29
    I re rolled when they destroyed my favorite character and spec in the game and made Blood tank only. My Dk will forever be lvl 85.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Neos300 View Post
    I'm willing to bet you're just parroting other people and don't really understand what that means yourself.



    The only way you're going to lose your raid spot is if you are bad. If you are a good player, no matter the class, you're not in danger of losing anything unless your guild is going for a world first... which I'm assuming you're not or you wouldn't be posting this.



    Worry less about what "we" are doing and worry more about what "you" are doing. If you are near the bottom, it's you, not the class.
    I understand the meaning of bad scaling bro. We get better and better gear, but the difference between a dk and an xclass become bigger and bigger in dps. If check the Enhancement/Feral/Fury/Arms/Assasin/Retribution nearly all of them do bigger dps in the same kind of gear. Maybe we can beat paladins, but they have much bigger burst than us, so again we are at nearly in the bottom. Oh don't worry I'm not parroting cuz I've come to this forum after i tought this theory is partially true.
    Oh, and i said WE because if you playing with other classes atm in your raid group(doesn't matter if it's 10 or 25) with same kind of items, ilvl etc you' will never be even close to the top as a dk.
    I'm not really interested in simcraft's because it says the best numbers what you could do, but you can't do those numbers , at least 90% of fight's you wont pull out such numbers.
    Last edited by mmocce1a1323c7; 2013-11-24 at 11:55 PM.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DkWarrior View Post
    I understand the meaning of bad scaling bro. We get better and better gear, but the difference between a dk and an xclass become bigger and bigger in dps. If check the Enhancement/Feral/Fury/Arms/Assasin/Retribution nearly all of them do bigger dps in the same kind of gear. Maybe we can beat paladins, but they have much bigger burst than us, so again we are at nearly in the bottom. Oh don't worry I'm not parroting cuz I've come to this forum after i tought this theory is partially true.
    Oh, and i said WE because if you playing with other classes atm in your raid group(doesn't matter if it's 10 or 25) with same kind of items, ilvl etc you' will never be even close to the top as a dk.
    I'm not really interested in simcraft's because it says the best numbers what you could do, but you can't do those numbers , at least 90% of fight's you wont pull out such numbers.
    Its quite nice to see people that accualy stands up for it class. As many here try to tell others that we are fine and doesnt need any help to be more competative.
    I have by my self now 10HC bosses down and i have 570+ ilv a heroic 2 hand weapon and i can say for sure that we are one of absolut lowest classes DPS wise. I will not say we are worthless thats a lie but we are absolutly lowest. I can Think that we beat hunters, shadow priests in some fights that benefit us alot (Spoils HC) But Warriors, Rogues, Mages, warlocks, Boomkins, Enhancement Shamans everyone beats us in most fights im not saying everyone beats us with 20% or more (Warlocks are even higher..) but we are 5-10% lower. Im not lowest in every fight well mage, warlock, rogue is mostly Always higher than me.

    Im talking for 10 men progress not 25 men. But the classes that is highest in 25 men is same in 10 men. Close every class have some fight they can shine they will be one of the highest dps but DK isnt shining anywhere in HC progress in gear +570 we will be bottom of list most of the times. Ofcourse we are not way lower the second lowest but if all are good players we will end up at bottom. Not worhless but in the bottom.
    Im not after to beeing a OP Warlock that can beat everyone on every boss thats not the Point. I want to be awarded if i play on edge and do Everything absolutly best i want to be rewarded to atleast have a chance to be top 3 at dps. In most senarios we will not be there. If you have a WaRLOCK, Mage, Rogue, warrior, Enhancement shaman its 5 classes that beats us most of the time.

    I know i know soon i will get hanged because i say things like this about DK so its ok im prepared. I have checked logs, mine Guild is at Thook HC and progressing and we have all of the higest classes in the raid. We are a good Group of people that have played this game since vanilla.
    In fights as many fights you dont want to have more than 1-2 melee and that spot when we have 1 melee i Always give to a Rogue he have alot more to give than me in utility, dps etc. So yes im sorry to say it but for a melee class we probably are the most unwanted.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Well tbh with the huge changes to how stats work in the coming expansion, you cant predict how classes will scale. Chances are actually high, that it will be much more balanced, since there is more stats to choose from, which ultimately means if one stat is bad for you, it can much easier be avoided.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    It doesn't look like DKs scale badly at all from some number crunching I did a few days ago, at least not in the 56X range. Here are some results from Patchwerk sims of people on my realm. Obviously this is only as accurate as each module is so I'm not saying that this stuff is gospel but if we want to talk about this sort of thing then SimC seems like the best tool for the job.

    DK (me) Frost DW and Mastersimple 310888 DPS ilvl 562
    STR:7.11, AP:2.66, EXP:7.86, Hit:4.41, InvHit:2.33, Crit:3.40, Haste:2.87, Mastery:4.57, MHDPS:8.57, OHDPS:4.31

    Warrior Fury 305425 DPS ilvl561
    STR:5.09, AP:2.24,EXP:12.41, Hit:14.01, InvHit:2.25, Crit:5.55, Haste:2.67, Mastery:4.55, MHDPS:10.96, OHDPS:4.88

    Rogue Subtlety 315488 DPS ilvl 565
    AGI:8.89, AP:2.39, EXP:4.46, Hit:3.31, InvHit:2.77, Crit:3.42, Haste:3.98, Mastery:3.53, MHDPS:10.43, OHDPS:2.25

    Hunter BM 308511 DPS ilvl 568
    AGI:8.94, AP:3.32, EXP:5.96, Hit:5.69, Crit:3.55, Haste:3.7, Mastery:3.77, MHDPS:6.43

    Warlock Destruction 338954 DPS ilvl571
    Int:8.40, SP:6.38, Hit:8.60, Crit:5.19, Haste:6.12, Mastery:5.07

    Mage Fire 304353 DPS ilvl564
    Int:8.18, SP:6.16, Hit:9.89, Crit:5.26. Haste:5.47, Mastery:5.21

    Priest Shadow 272776 DPS ilvl567
    Int:6.94, SP:5.27. Hit:8.34, Crit:4.09, Haste:2.46, Mastery:4.66


    I also gained 1 iilvl on Wednesday my latest sim was reporting an extra 6k damage (317009 DPS) from that 1 ilvl. What it looks like the problem is that the OP outliers are just much better at cleave and AoE rather than gaining more stats and dps from gear than we do.
    I would call those, atleast in comparison to caster, great differences. I mean what did you expect? Triple stat values of ours on other classes?
    You should not forget of how much stats we have in high end gear, over 40k secondary stats and over 25k mainstat and raidbuffs etc.
    While the ctual negative calculation works not exactly like it, you can pretty much construct your dps solely by your stat weights.

    Which means, that 1 avg difference in dps per secondary stat point can result in 40k difference in dps in high end gear. While the difference is definetly not that grim, because of how stats interact with eachother and a difference in how scaling works for the classes it shows how drastic even seemingly little differences can potentially be.

    The core reason why we are so low is because our dps mechanic is solely based on rough dmg increase. Our stats don't interact with each other in a positive way, especially haste and mastery contradict each other for frost.

    Easy example: caster dots and procs. If DoT A crits it has a chance to trigger proc B which allows a free cast of spell C. We have now 3 stats, crit which increases the dmg dealt by DoT A and Spell C and additionally now increases the number of times you can use spell C. Its basically double dipping Spell C, as crit increases its dmg in two ways, first in pure output, second in how often you can use it.
    Now we take in haste which increases the ticking speed of DoT A and also increases the castspeed of spell C. But as DoT A is now ticking faster it increases the likelyness of Proc B and increasing again the dmg spell C deals that way.
    AT last mastery can simply be a flat dmg increase to Spell C and DoT A and the system is complete.

    Assuming Spell C is highest dmging spell (highest scale with spell power, or the only casted spell affected by the mastery etc) all of your three stats boost each other significantly in worth. Your spell C is at any time a dps increase over every other filler spell except DoT A. So as long as you can use every proc global cd wise, its a dmg increase. Mastery increases the absolute gain in comparison to the filler spell D while crit and haste double dips on it by rough dmg increase and how ofen you can use it.
    Result: Secondary stats boost each other up and up close to indefinetly.

    This often is carried over to cleave/multidot/AoE where you can increase your rough AoE dmg by stats and by having multiple targets you get more ST dmg thorugh procs triggered by AoE.

    We as dks don't have such a mechanic which makes us very strong at start, as we have no minimum requirements for our dmg to go. We get stats and get going thats it.
    But as our stats don't interact in such a way as explained above we are brutally linear in dmg, no breakpoints, no ST gain in AoE just rough linear dmg.

    The killing blow here is how mastery is only affecting half our spells (spekaing of frost now). For Frost 2h, in a scenario of infinite haste mastery is literally worth nothing as you don't use HB/FS at any point in time.
    For a scenario of infinite mastery we only use HB/FS (regardless of 2h/dw) as our other spells wouldn't be affected by it and therefore dealing no dmg in comparison to OB for example.
    Hb usage then lowers haste needed to be gcd capped and therefore more mastery means, less worth of haste.

    Also regarding haste, we can reach our gcd locked state way to fast through AMS soaking, PL and spamming HB (HB spam only for dw).
    If haste would stay important to higher degrees we would have a way better interaction with gear.
    You can see this by simming yourself without PL, without AMS soaking and without any haste and watch how your haste scaling kinda explodes.

    Also KM procs take away worth of crit as it replaces the benefit of the stat for using the procc. If it would grant crit dmg and would proc of something which we could also use AoE wise like frost fever/HB and maybe even tirgger by HB again our stat weights would look way different by that one change.

    P.S.
    Sry for the monster post but just felt like writing it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    SNIP
    No, just no. Comparing a class without weapon damage to a class with weapon damage makes them worlds apart. The rest just sounds like your trying to justify some reason as to why we scale badly even though the sim shows we don't. That's fine, we all believe what we want to believe at the end of the day.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    No, just no. Comparing a class without weapon damage to a class with weapon damage makes them worlds apart. The rest just sounds like your trying to justify some reason as to why we scale badly even though the sim shows we don't. That's fine, we all believe what we want to believe at the end of the day.
    Gotta run now but wanted to point something out real quick;

    Those sims you posted Kronik have a DW frost DK, at ilvl 562, simming at 311k. It also has a ilvl 571 destruction lock at 339k. If that doesn't hint to you that something is WAY off with those sims I don't know what would. I realize the point is stat scaling, but if the overall sim is that inaccurate....

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    No, just no. Comparing a class without weapon damage to a class with weapon damage makes them worlds apart. The rest just sounds like your trying to justify some reason as to why we scale badly even though the sim shows we don't. That's fine, we all believe what we want to believe at the end of the day.
    For that reason caster have a giant bunch of spell power on their weapons. And if you make a rough caculation by using stat weights for spell power/weapon dps you will see that the gain is about equivalent. Weapons are the core items for every class and spec.

    And the sim shows we scale badly. While rarely a sim is 100% optimized you can see that till about ilvl 522 frost dk is the strongest dps spec in the game. Looking then at 535, 553 and BiS we sink more and more. Now consideirng that we got buffed back in 5.2 and now in 5.4 by considerable amounts, being somewhat op on low ilvl and are not anywhere top at current hc gear is clearly an indicator of gear scaling.

    Your examples provided are not even particular interesting for dps comparison, different ilvls and probably different slots. If you for example have galakras/thok trinket and or good weapons and your caster are running around with ToT stuff, or simply not optimal stuff compared to yours then the example is worthless.
    And by looking at 317k dps on 562 ilvl i'm fairly certain that you have the core gear you need.

    But ignoring that you still see considerbale differences and i've explained the reason for that above. You can also turn it around and explain why the difference isn't that big compared to other melees, simply because the explained mechanics are basically caster mechanics. Warrior has such a component through additional rage generation.

    And to be clear. I don't think dks are exceptionally bad but the stat matter is a problem, because we lack potential our limits are set to low. Constant dmg is cool but tends to look somewhat bad on some encounter designs and especially on farm when things are blown up. While that is a pseudo problem though.

  17. #37
    I'm definitely definitely open to the idea that SimC doesn't accurately reflect what's going on in raids atm. The people I simmed were all relatively well geared with all the things they needed for competitive DPS (full SoO gear, weapon's 4 sets and trinkets), it seems abit mean to move the goal posts and say that only BiS matters. For starters no one's in BiS atm and if they are I don't see them in here saying we scale badly or aren't worth bringing to a raid.

    I'm also open to the idea that other classes modules might not be as accurate as ours. For us however I think it's spot on when using the MasterSimple priority and being able to tunnel tunnel tunnel (Iron Juggernaut normal with optimal soaking seems to be the only fight that replicates Patchwerk). The work I did was very simple and rather flawed, not enough to win an argument with such entrenched views. So new question!

    Does it matter for WoD?

    Well if ilvl goes down (I heard Wrath level.....probably wrong) and we do well with lower ilvl gear then doesn't that mean life is peachy in 6.0?

  18. #38
    Deleted
    I don't really understand how the item squish/stat decrease will change us, at least i don't understand it.

  19. #39
    If they don't change how increasing ilvl works it won't change anything, doesn't matter if you need 60 or 600 rating to gain 1% crit, it will be the same percentual increase and will scale up the same way. And as 1 ilvl means ~1% increase in stats it will just start anew every expansion and content just the number scale changes.

    A linear stat increase would make us better in comparison as everyone would get way less percentual increase over time. But that would be no real solution, if at all a lazy one srweing some classes game epxerience in current class design. (Also screws raiding difficulty as old content would stay considerable hard while new content offers way less increase, leaving less room for increasing requirements, meaing an insane increase in difficulty or close to none).

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    If they don't change how increasing ilvl works it won't change anything, doesn't matter if you need 60 or 600 rating to gain 1% crit, it will be the same percentual increase and will scale up the same way. And as 1 ilvl means ~1% increase in stats it will just start anew every expansion and content just the number scale changes.

    A linear stat increase would make us better in comparison as everyone would get way less percentual increase over time. But that would be no real solution, if at all a lazy one srweing some classes game epxerience in current class design. (Also screws raiding difficulty as old content would stay considerable hard while new content offers way less increase, leaving less room for increasing requirements, meaing an insane increase in difficulty or close to none).
    I think I've got it wrong anyway about ilvl, it's still going up. The difference is that the gear simply has less stats on it. The examples given at Blizzcon are as follows.

    Current ilvl 530
    490,873 HP
    20,640 Int
    46,928 Fireball

    Post squish ilvl 530
    30,375 HP
    1100 Int
    2209 Fireball

    So go slow with me how does having less stats on items mean we will still bad if there's some kind of magical 560 ilvl break point that DKs suddenly stop scaling well? Isn't too many stats meant to be our current problem?

    Your patience is appreciated.

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