Thread: Combat question

  1. #1

    Combat question

    Is it worth using eviscerate under 5 cp to get either adrenaline rush or blade flurry to come of CD faster?

    For instance: 4 cp, 8 seconds on adrenaline rush would mean if you did a finisher right then you wouldn't "lose" any restless blades seconds.

    It seems like over the course of a fight there are a lot of wasted time knock offs always waiting to finish at 5cp. And with how fast adrenaline rush and killing spree come off CD with the AoC now it seems like it's very possible that if these cp don't get wasted and every cp spent on a damaging finisher knocks off time from your CDs that it's possible to squeeze in an extra set of CDs possibly.

    Granted doing a sub 5 cp finisher then gives you the possibility of not procing relentless strikes or ruthlessness.

  2. #2
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    I do this if I know that it'll grant me extra use of ARSB under deep/moderate insight, but this is more a gut feeling than a tested method.
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  3. #3
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    I also do it, but if you don't have Yellow/Red Insight, just keep building CP with anticipation and wait the CD, landing the finishers later will be better

  4. #4
    Given that the penalty for <5 point finishers isn't that large, this makes a whole lot of sense. I'll defer to anyone who simcrafts it with this profile. I doubt the gain will be that large over an infinite fight, but given that we talk about ludicrously small gains such as "pool during revealing" and such...

    Hrm. You may actually want to ask this on EJ after browsing their combat thread.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Is it worth using eviscerate under 5 cp to get either adrenaline rush or blade flurry to come of CD faster?

    For instance: 4 cp, 8 seconds on adrenaline rush would mean if you did a finisher right then you wouldn't "lose" any restless blades seconds.

    It seems like over the course of a fight there are a lot of wasted time knock offs always waiting to finish at 5cp. And with how fast adrenaline rush and killing spree come off CD with the AoC now it seems like it's very possible that if these cp don't get wasted and every cp spent on a damaging finisher knocks off time from your CDs that it's possible to squeeze in an extra set of CDs possibly.

    Granted doing a sub 5 cp finisher then gives you the possibility of not procing relentless strikes or ruthlessness.
    I'd say it unltimately depends on what insight your are in currently and when is killing spree coming off cooldown. In most cases I do 3 point evicerates to clip that 3 second window for killing spree all the time, from deep insight normally. If you have time wait for 5 but if not, You gotta do what you have to do. That 30 percent dmg bonus on top of any trinket proc is money. I have heroic warforged AOC and for me the timeing is all fucked up lol.. It seems like ks is up all the time. Makes me half way like combat sometimes... But at heart I'm a sub rogue for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Given that the penalty for <5 point finishers isn't that large, this makes a whole lot of sense. I'll defer to anyone who simcrafts it with this profile. I doubt the gain will be that large over an infinite fight, but given that we talk about ludicrously small gains such as "pool during revealing" and such...

    Hrm. You may actually want to ask this on EJ after browsing their combat thread.
    Most of these methods are honestly common sense.... Unfortunately. As long as you manage your cooldowns/trinket/trinket procs/insights that is whats going to tell you when and what to cut. I mean losing an extra combo point from a 5 pointer vs dumping w/ a 3 to get killing spree off at the end of a deep insight... Theres nothing to prove... Its clearly the better option. A simple trinket proc also allows you to do some pretty amazing things.. 15k agility on top of a shallow insight even is sick dmg, much more than a plain deep insight I'd say, I'm no mathematician, mainly base everything on experience and trial and error, excessive trial and error..

  6. #6
    The only time you do an undersized finisher to bring something off cd is if the boss is at 2-3% (or 2-3% from some immune phse) and you need the cooldowns NOW (or else lose that one usage of them). Or an add is dying and you have 3 cp, etc. It's never worth it to consider restless blades. You can either pool cp or energy to work around that by planning ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Rogue View Post
    I'd say it unltimately depends on what insight your are in currently and when is killing spree coming off cooldown. In most cases I do 3 point evicerates to clip that 3 second window for killing spree all the time, from deep insight normally. If you have time wait for 5 but if not, You gotta do what you have to do. That 30 percent dmg bonus on top of any trinket proc is money. I have heroic warforged AOC and for me the timeing is all fucked up lol.. It seems like ks is up all the time. Makes me half way like combat sometimes... But at heart I'm a sub rogue for sure.
    It sounds to me like you're over-valuing deep insight. Ignoring trinket procs, a 5-point finisher at no insight will do more damage than a 3-point finisher in deep insight. In this case you hit killing spree and start pooling combo points through no insight (using a finisher in no insight if need be).

    For example, my rogue has about 87k attack power raid buffed. Assuming wowhead's eviscerate damage formulas are correct, a 5-point eviscerate in blank with no procs is equivalent to a 3 point eviscerate in deep insight with a proc for 7.9k agility. And that's ignoring the fact that the 3-point eviscerate has a 40% chance to not grant a combo point, and a 40% chance to not grant 25 energy.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-11-17 at 06:53 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    The only time you do an undersized finisher to bring something off cd is if the boss is at 2-3% (or 2-3% from some immune phse) and you need the cooldowns NOW (or else lose that one usage of them). Or an add is dying and you have 3 cp, etc. It's never worth it to consider restless blades. You can either pool cp or energy to work around that by planning ahead.

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    It sounds to me like you're over-valuing deep insight. Ignoring trinket procs, a 5-point finisher at no insight will do more damage than a 3-point finisher in deep insight. In this case you hit killing spree and start pooling combo points through no insight (using a finisher in no insight if need be).

    For example, my rogue has about 87k attack power raid buffed. Assuming wowhead's eviscerate damage formulas are correct, a 5-point eviscerate in blank with no procs is equivalent to a 3 point eviscerate in deep insight with a proc for 7.9k agility. And that's ignoring the fact that the 3-point eviscerate has a 40% chance to not grant a combo point, and a 40% chance to not grant 25 energy.
    I'm not really meaning that for evicerate dumps, I mean in terms of dumping it to get that killing spree off while in deep insight or while in moderate insight to get a full sb/ar off plus a ks off while transitioning into a deep insight. In terms of timing is what i mean. Timing in my opinon is what combat is all about. Balancing timeing around procs/insights and so forth.

  8. #8
    Timing is irrelevent. If you can't use that killing spree in deep insight, then you use it when you can (you'll very likely be able to during shallow insight).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-11-17 at 10:43 PM.

  9. #9
    Wow nevermind .... No matter what I say you seem to be the type of person to disagree. That's fine. You WIN! YOU WON! YAY!!! Timing is irrelevent lol. Right trinkets do not matter when they come off cd, evicerate dumps don't decrease the TIMING OF YOUR MAJOR CDS... Right TIMEING IS IRELEVANT>! Someone w/ a 4th grade education plz set this dude straight...

    infracted: flaming
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-11-18 at 08:06 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Rogue View Post
    Wow nevermind .... No matter what I say you seem to be the type of person to disagree. That's fine. You WIN! YOU WON! YAY!!! Timing is irrelevent lol. Right trinkets do not matter when they come off cd, evicerate dumps don't decrease the TIMING OF YOUR MAJOR CDS... Right TIMEING IS IRELEVANT>! Someone w/ a 4th grade education plz set this dude straight...
    I think shadowboy is just referring to the fact that because of restless blades rogues get more out of spamming CDs rather than holding them for trinket procs (which are actually fairly unreliable to predict due to the general RPPM aspect of a lot of trinkets).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    I think shadowboy is just referring to the fact that because of restless blades rogues get more out of spamming CDs rather than holding them for trinket procs (which are actually fairly unreliable to predict due to the general RPPM aspect of a lot of trinkets).
    Understood. Never did I say I'd hold off for anything. I preplan my cds in order to do more dmg. The whole thing I was saying was if i had 5 or so seconds left on ks cd and 5 seconds left on deep insight i would dump a non 5 point evicerate to get that killling spree out. Note this is while deep insight is counting down getting close to that 3 second mark. Rather than waiting traditionally for that 5 point, and to me its an increase. If I can squeeze a killing spree inside of that small 3 to 4 second window I will do it simply because its a major dmg increase.

  12. #12
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Rogue View Post
    Wow nevermind .... No matter what I say you seem to be the type of person to disagree. That's fine. You WIN! YOU WON! YAY!!! Timing is irrelevent lol. Right trinkets do not matter when they come off cd, evicerate dumps don't decrease the TIMING OF YOUR MAJOR CDS... Right TIMEING IS IRELEVANT>! Someone w/ a 4th grade education plz set this dude straight...
    Without wanting to fuel a fire, shadowboy has proven himself, at least to me, to be a great source of knowledge on the subtle mechanics of rogues. I give his posts a great deal of respect and I know I'm not alone with that - if you're in disagreement, it's much better to explain why rather than blowing up like this at someone who was being nothing but polite.

    For example,

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Timing is irrelevent. If you can't use that killing spree in deep insight, then you use it when you can (you'll very likely be able to during shallow insight).
    I'm not sure this agrees with me, in particular with killing spree with t16, with the stacking increase damage of this ability would not the difference between no insight and deep insight be something worthy of consideration? What throws me is the formulas on wowhead seem to imply that the more attack power you have, the more you lose from not using 5cp finishers - even still the damage "cost" of doing a 3 point finisher seems small enough to imply that getting the extra damage of deep insight KS over no insight KS to be worth it.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm not sure this agrees with me, in particular with killing spree with t16, with the stacking increase damage of this ability would not the difference between no insight and deep insight be something worthy of consideration? What throws me is the formulas on wowhead seem to imply that the more attack power you have, the more you lose from not using 5cp finishers - even still the damage "cost" of doing a 3 point finisher seems small enough to imply that getting the extra damage of deep insight KS over no insight KS to be worth it.
    Deep insight vs shallow insight is not as significant as you think, especially when you consider that 3 point finisher does less damage at higher energy cost, offsetting some (or possibly even all) of the gain you'd get from that killing spree.

    I've messed with the priority list in simcraft for all manner of delaying things for higher BG insight levels (in particular, I spent a lot of time trying to mess with rupture timing so that roughly every other rupture cast was in deep insight). It was never a gain to do so. Not even once. My observation on combat rogue rotations was to focus on restless blades more than BG since restless blades affects your damage more than BG does--but not at the expense of energy efficiency (ie, finisher size).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-11-18 at 05:29 AM.

  14. #14
    Appologies to shadowboy. I know I'm new here. State what is correct then please. This thread has been drugg to long, all I stated was killing spree if posssible can and should be used while in deep insight. This doesn't mean everytime itlll happen like this. To undercut one evicerate vs a killing spree deep insight your basically saying that this is a dps loss correct? Yes or no and if yes how can you prove this.

    How many evicerates does a combat rogue use in a 6 min fight? How many killing sprees? Wouldn't it be worth undercutting one to gain a passive dmg bonus? Last time I checked on my logss all I see is balde flurry, sinister strike, main guage being dominant. Evicerate is prolly 5th or sixth. Not only is it like this on mine, go see top parses they are the same.

  15. #15
    I'm not saying it's a dps loss. I'm saying I don't know what the result is, but at the very least, you're trading damage in one place for damage in another. That undersized eviscerate reduces your energy efficiency. Whether the magnitude of that loss is bigger or smaller than the gain you get from killing spree, I do not know--that's a nontrivial question to answer. There is a lot more at play than simply where it appears on your damage sources. That undersized eviscerate procs less energy from relentless strikes, that leads to a longer cycle for your next finisher, which in turn could mean that using that 3 point eviscerate then caused you to cast 1 less finisher (regardless of size) over the duration of the encounter. The ruthlessness that didn't proc could lead to losing a killing spree over the fight due to fewer combo points for restless blades, just to gain 18% damage on that one killing spree.

    Point being there are many factors at play here and it's just not conclusive and probably not trivial to even test in current modeling tools (simcraft or shadowcraft). As such I prefer the convention of always using 5 point offensive finishers because we know that works.

  16. #16
    So the answer to my question is to stick with using 5 point finisher and that the damage either way would be a negligible difference or a possible drop in dps? Nothing game breaking either way?

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