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  1. #421
    Trying to be as succinct as I can...

    1. Tanking is fun, but most raid fights are not fun to tank. Tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. Instead, let the tanks coordinate between themselves who is to be MT, who is to OT, who is to tank this boss and who is to tank the next. The funnest fights to tank are the ones where tanking confers a measure of personal responsibility that goes beyond taunting at 3 stacks.

    2. Gearing is a problem. There's no easy or clear way to gear up for tanking; tanking gear is role specific so a piece of tanking gear won't e.g. help you grind Timeless Isle mobs very much; tanking stats don't tangibly make you feel more powerful. The gear changes coming with WoD could help with this tremendously!

    3. Abusive players are a factor, but in my view a small one. For what it's worth, before I ever tanked LFR, I would have guessed that abusive players were probably the biggest factor, but after tanking several LFRs now my perspective has changed and I would say it's the fun factor not of tanking - which is fun - but of raid design that among other things dilutes one's personal role in the raid by forcing both tanks to be equal partners in all things.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    Is that strictly true? In my experience in PuGs/LFG it's usually the tank that's the one being somewhat aggressive towards others, especially healers. Now I am not saying all tanks = jerks! But I can't say I personally witnessed many tanks being victimized
    On the flip side, a lot of tanks also have an attitude and act like since they have a fast queue and we might be waiting if we kick them, they're free to be a total asshat to everyone.

    I've seen, and initiated, vote kicks for a tank being an ass that passed in the blink of an eye.

    Ironic how there's so many different causes in the world, and so many differing views in a game as well, yet everything, EVERYTHING can be improved if all people embraced the same philosophy.

    Be excellent to each other.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Would not say DPS or healers have any more or less to do than tanks tbh, there about equal, the issue is just the tanks the most critical one with zero redundancy, can lose a couple of dps and a healer and still have a fair chance of downing the boss but a tank dies and can't be rezzed then its a wipe without fail.

    Seen may raids start a healer short, or a dps in 25 man but never lacking a tank, that goes with LFR as well.

    And to answer the topic I agree with what most have said, its true that tanks are abused totally and the slightest mistake or ask how to do a fight and its kicked and another tank is bought in.

    Example being this week on my main was in the LFR as dps (I am a prime example) when my main spec is tank, and one of the tanks is around 500 Ilvl just able to get in, as soon as some druid with an average of 445+ spots is he's like "omg kick him he's way undergeared" and we'd not killed anything.

    Funny that we got to the last boss in the wing (nazgrim) before we wiped at all, and then it was down to the usual "not killing the adds". But this is exactally one of the points that ruins the LFR.

    My main is a tank and I will not tank in the LFR I have no reason want to put up with the attitude and no incentive to put up with the abuse and absurd expectation's and the total lack of any form of patience.

    But so long as its like that there will always be a shortage of tanks, so be nice to your tanks and you will get faster groups
    Exactly. LFR groups will complain, critique and sometimes downright insult a tank when they screw up, because with the tank failing the boss just will not go down. However, on the same token, see a tank say "kick the dps below me, thats terrible damage its making the fights so much longer/hitting enrage". OH GOD NO! Following a slur of buzzwords, elitist, toxic, etc. and a couple attempts at kicking that may or may not be successful, the group continues with a stack of dps protection.

    Determination can fix bad dps/heal. 2 healers and 4 dps can carry an LFR. But tanks? both need to be competent or the group is going to fail, so groups chase them out/kick them meanwhile there are 5 dps who are doing horrible that get by.

    Blizzard needs to make fights actually require sense from the majority of the other roles, not small amounts, and remove determination. Maybe then people will actually get rid of bad dps/heals, and tanks wont feel singled out. This lies on the shoulders of LFR players however, to stop letting each other slack off and making only 1 role take full time and effort, something many would rather not put in if they can avoid it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    Trying to be as succinct as I can...

    1. Tanking is fun, but most raid fights are not fun to tank. Tank swaps are a transparently artificial gimmick to force tanks to take turns. Instead, let the tanks coordinate between themselves who is to be MT, who is to OT, who is to tank this boss and who is to tank the next. The funnest fights to tank are the ones where tanking confers a measure of personal responsibility that goes beyond taunting at 3 stacks.

    2. Gearing is a problem. There's no easy or clear way to gear up for tanking; tanking gear is role specific so a piece of tanking gear won't e.g. help you grind Timeless Isle mobs very much; tanking stats don't tangibly make you feel more powerful. The gear changes coming with WoD could help with this tremendously!

    3. Abusive players are a factor, but in my view a small one. For what it's worth, before I ever tanked LFR, I would have guessed that abusive players were probably the biggest factor, but after tanking several LFRs now my perspective has changed and I would say it's the fun factor not of tanking - which is fun - but of raid design that among other things dilutes one's personal role in the raid by forcing both tanks to be equal partners in all things.
    1-I disagree, it is so that raids dont make one of their tanks have a fully functional offset. Also it would be kinda dull to have EVERY fight have adds that need to be tanked, just like if EVERY fight required a tank swap.

    2-Yes, but many of the "abused" tanks are the ones who dont know their stat priority, use dps (or healer!) gear, and are neither gemmed or enchanted in any way.

    3-I agree that while tanking can be fun, LFR has been so screwed over and smashed with nerfs that it isnt fun. Normal+ raids? I need to know what I'm doing. LFR? my blood shield literally absorbs everything, and Im not stacking mastery. Nothing fun about needing just 1 button to tank a fight successfully.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Well LFR lets them do that. I would prefer if Siege cut out Galakras, Norushen, Paragons and Spoils, a 10 boss tier, if we got some heroics. But because the LFR crowd will never let LFR die, and Blizzard giving people options will inevitably do that, they arent making more heroic right now.
    LFR has nothing to do with it.

    Blizzard could have just as well made the first two wings of SoO into dungeons and scenarios, but they didn't. It's either raid, raid, raid, raid or nothing else.

    LFR could still be used for the other wings that they still made as raids.

    MoP should have been named MoR - Mainly Only Raids.

    Im sorry, it was made for those who dont have time to raid. Nothing about skill. There is no reason it has to be piss easy, since it is made for those with time constraints, not malfunctioning brains
    It's only easy when compared to the higher difficulties. If LFR was as truly as easy as many forum posters claim it is, there would never be a single wipe - ever. There are still many wipes - many enough that Blizzard had to build Determination to keep player interest in LFR from waning. If anything, LFR difficulty reminds me more of Vanilla T1 and perhaps some bosses in EQ1.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    It's only easy when compared to the higher difficulties. If LFR was as truly as easy as many forum posters claim it is, there would never be a single wipe - ever. There are still many wipes - many enough that Blizzard had to build Determination to keep player interest in LFR from waning. If anything, LFR difficulty reminds me more of Vanilla T1 and perhaps some bosses in EQ1.
    LFR is piss easy. However, we do not have auras on our characters that dps for us, so we do need to actually be there pushing buttons. If you look at the mechanics that are removed, the requirements numberwise, and then ofc the fact that the more you fail the stronger you get, you see that LFR is a guaranteed clear if you stay in the group.

    Dark Animus is the best example of this. DA heroic? Insane. DA Normal? lots of coordination and a minor gear check (very minor). DA LFR? Literally AoE and win. The wake didnt hurt enough to kill unless you stood in 2. The mobs had no real abilities. Matter swap was automatic. LFR is piss easy. Again it happened on Thok, because of course personal accountability is too hardcore for those with time constraints, and the inability to read the dungeon journal. People of all playstyles have done LFR at some point. Anybody who has done a higher difficulty in TBC, Wrath 25M, Cata or Mists can tell you that LFR really has no challenge whatsoever other than that of vanilla raids, herding cats and getting them to stay focused for a total of 5 minutes.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by yajinni View Post
    And how is this blizzards problem?
    Long queues = frustrated customers = loss of profits

    Quote Originally Posted by yajinni View Post
    This is a problem created by the community. They can try to fix it, but fixing it requires they either bust out a stick and start punishing people or a carrot to try to make them behave better. In the end a good chuck of the problem is there because of peoples behavior.
    What do you suggest blizzard does to solve the problem?
    Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

    Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
    Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

    It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  7. #427
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    If you ask the tanks there's no way they're going to say people are jerks to them because they're bad.
    The only time I'm aggressive towards a tank is when they come in with 0 knowledge of fight without asking, or are in blues/dps gear.

  8. #428
    I tank in normal modes atm and I still don't tank LFR even to replace the couple 522's I have just because I know that I don't need to do anything wrong for someone to start hurling abuse my way. So I can't imagine someone newer to raiding will go a second time if they don't have the right people there for their first attempts.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Long queues = frustrated customers = loss of profits



    Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

    Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
    Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

    It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.
    I agree that it is deflecting it, but the community is part of the problem. The LFR players bitch and moan about literally everything. They get bosses to have massive health nerfs, raid wide damage nerfs, determination even existing. They made it so 2/3 roles can do next to nothing and get carried by the few players working hard.

    Blizzard bent to them because Blizzard will please the minority. Now they are demanding blizzard somehow fixes it by offering tanks special rewards and stuff. Tanks will que for LFR as dps and get their tank gear because LFR players have pushed Blizzard to make dpsing LFR that simplistic

  10. #430
    I tanked the last wing of LFR last night. First time joining queue as a tank since ToT. The problem that drove me away didn't change.

    The other tank didn't share a language with me, didn't know the fight, and could not be convinced to taunt swap with me.

    What am I supposed to do? I can't solo tank Blackfuse the entire time and I have literally no help or way to ask for help from the other tank.

    Solution = don't put yourself in a horrible position by sticking with guildmates in non-LFR.

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  11. #431
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Blaming players is the easy answer and one that will not solve the problem. For me, it's hard to solve a problem I only have partial information to. When Blizz says part of the problem is community based... OK well what's the other part of the problem? What is tangibly fixable? Answering a complaint with a complaint shouldn't be how a business runs. It's how children bicker.

    Players: "Why are queues so long for LFR?"
    Blizz: "Why are you guys such assholes to tanks?"

    It's not answering the question, it's deflecting it. A reward/discouragement system may do the trick. Blizzard has been socially engineering players since the start of wow. Though difficult, this is not an insurmountable task to solve.
    Exactly this. As a business and game designer at this point you need to be aware that on the internet people will generally be douches to each other. Look at this forum, that's why they have semi-elaborate moderation, super moderation, administration, and infraction/ban/point systems in place. It's so you can have some sort of system to keep people in line without being like "GTFO permabanned" completely (because that, in itself, will just drive away viewers).

    Trying to blame the community is like environments trying to just tell people to be "nice to the trees" and beg people to "not litter" but do nothing else... it's not gonna happen, not without systems in place.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Exactly this. As a business and game designer at this point you need to be aware that on the internet people will generally be douches to each other. Look at this forum, that's why they have semi-elaborate moderation, super moderation, administration, and infraction/ban/point systems in place. It's so you can have some sort of system to keep people in line without being like "GTFO permabanned" completely (because that, in itself, will just drive away viewers).

    Trying to blame the community is like environments trying to just tell people to be "nice to the trees" and beg people to "not litter" but do nothing else... it's not gonna happen, not without systems in place.
    Well the community stamps its feet, shouts insults and threatens to quit. Blizzards shareholders NEED those players to stay, so pretty much whatever the "casual" community says needs to happen happens.

    "Nerf Naz! People wont get off the boss and we keep wiping to Ravegers and enrage"

    "Just kick them?"

    "NO! This is too hard for casuals we are stacking determination because our dps is too low."

    "Why havent you kicked them"

    "Stop being elitist, just because somebody has a life and not a 550 ilvl doesnt mean we should kick them. The fight is broken and too hard fore casuals"


    couple days later Naz lost his nads. On Blizzards part, the VTK system is broken, but I promise you many many many LFR groups kept trying and stacking debuffs instead of kicking those who tunneled or just didnt meet the dps requirements. Blizzard can only resist them so much before the heads and shareholds say no, please these people, we need the sub total to look good.

    The community now has created this hellhole in which many players cannot stand to be. It is uninteresting, watered down and full of scummy people. And what do they want Blizzard to do? find a way to get people back into LFR. Oh but if Blizzard made LFR take brainwaves from the majority of players to clear, and not just 5-6 of them the tears would flow again.
    Last edited by Giscoicus; 2013-11-19 at 12:07 AM. Reason: More to say

  13. #433
    "Nerf Naz! People wont get off the boss and we keep wiping to Ravegers and enrage"

    "Just kick them?"

    "NO! This is too hard for casuals we are stacking determination because our dps is too low."

    "Why havent you kicked them"
    .....you ever tried vote-kicking more than one person in an LFR?

    "You can't do that shortly after combat."
    "That player can't be kicked for another [absurd number] minutes."
    "You have already blahblahblah random error message"

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  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    .....you ever tried vote-kicking more than one person in an LFR?

    "You can't do that shortly after combat."
    "That player can't be kicked for another [absurd number] minutes."
    "You have already blahblahblah random error message"
    I know, and I said the VTK system is broken as well. But really, go do a Naz LFR that the group wipes to enrage. Link meters, point out people below...60k? Thats generous tbh. Say kick these people. Watch the insults flow, possibly angry whispers or the group just does nothing and pulls again, possibly somebody says something about determination saving them.

  15. #435
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Nazgrim did need to be nerfed, but because of the nature of LFR. It's not meant to be a "progression" system, it's meant to be a "go have some fun, get some loot." A berserk wipe is particularly bad because that's 10-20-30 minutes wasted of your life. You should always rather wipe to mechanics, but Nazgrim mechanics where 1) healing mobs need to be focused, or 2) DPS need to be stopped are extremely brutal for such groups which they will be.

    By making LFR 25 man (again I believe it REALLY needs to become 10 man), you're completely erasing any potential for coordination and for leadership. A 10 man group is much more likely to reward people for trying (or kick people that don't), and also rewards leaders who organize and explain things. A rabble/mob will have rabble/mob mentality. I guarantee, even with more tanks/raid ratio, if LFR were made 10 man (2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS) eventually DPS will see shorter queues, not longer.

    Or just remove LFR completely, I wouldn't be opposed, but some would be.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    Is it too much to ask that you have a quick read-over of the dungeon journal or even icy-veins or something? You're the lynchpin, the keystone of the group and you can't be bothered to research what it is you need to do?
    I've said it before, but as tanks are the lynchpins of the group as you say, it'd make sense to reward them better than the rest of the group. That'll increase your tank quality enormously. Otherwise you pay peanuts and get monkeys, as the saying goes.

  17. #437
    Be nice? That gets you and the tanks nowhere.

    If they are garbage, it's your responsibility to tell them. In order for a bad tank to get better, they first need to know that they're bad so they can learn to get better. It's not anyone but the tanks fault.

    I'm sure if we just took out Lfr there would be less bad tanks.

  18. #438
    There is a shortage of tanks because tanking takes no thought process what so ever so ppl choose a different roll instead of falling into a coma of bored that is known as tanking.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    And I've already said what fixes LFR; ban the asshats. You insult other people, get reported, Blizzard investigates - your ability to join LFR gets removed. If you proceed to do so outside LFR, you get permanently banned. No second chances, no "but Billy is 12, he doesn't understand what he's saying!" -lenience. Permanent ban.

    Problem solved.
    I have not agreed with most of what you have said in this thread but i will stand behind you on this 100%. If there is consequence for people actions then things will improve, currently there is nothing. Personally i would prefer a specialized keyboard that electrocutes people when they act like a douche but you can't always get what you want.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Nazgrim did need to be nerfed, but because of the nature of LFR. It's not meant to be a "progression" system, it's meant to be a "go have some fun, get some loot." A berserk wipe is particularly bad because that's 10-20-30 minutes wasted of your life. You should always rather wipe to mechanics, but Nazgrim mechanics where 1) healing mobs need to be focused, or 2) DPS need to be stopped are extremely brutal for such groups which they will be.

    By making LFR 25 man (again I believe it REALLY needs to become 10 man), you're completely erasing any potential for coordination and for leadership. A 10 man group is much more likely to reward people for trying (or kick people that don't), and also rewards leaders who organize and explain things. A rabble/mob will have rabble/mob mentality. I guarantee, even with more tanks/raid ratio, if LFR were made 10 man (2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS) eventually DPS will see shorter queues, not longer.

    Or just remove LFR completely, I wouldn't be opposed, but some would be.
    And it wasnt progression. The requirements for Naz were well within that of timeless geared players. However, that assumes they are just average skill level, which many in LFR are not. Yea, it could have been nerfed, but even still groups are wiping over and over and refuse to kick bad players instead they just get determination high enough to literally faceroll.

    Many players in LFR find challenging content unfun, god knows why they do LFR for gear since they will never go higher but to each their own. However, their unwillingness to fix it themselves is why LFR keeps getting worse and worse. If people had came to the forums pleading Blizzard to fix the vote kick system because the group cannot remove bad players who are wiping the group, Blizzard would have done that. But no, they wanted Blizzard to make it easier, because many ARE bad players who would be kicked.

    A good player in LFR is rare. Much of the good dps are just very geared, and actually quite low for their gear. The fact that somebody with 496 can easily out dps somebody in 528 shows how little people try or how bad they are, and the LFR community wants Blizzard to fix it. And any problems that come from making LFR pitifully boring. And problems that come from try to convince raiders to come into LFR, and find that they aren't there to carry the group, just contribute. And then they will want Blizzard to make it so raiders never want to do LFR, then they will ask for more nerfs, then fix the fact that it is boring as bricks, then again, get in higher geared players to help.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Wrong, LFR tuning doesn't require great gears or excellent skills to complete. Have you considered LFR to be a learning tool instead of the final show off of skill/gear? You get better by playing more and Blizzard has put LFR in game to entice people to play more (aka get better). The toxic LFR environment is from players expecting too much, not Blizzard's lack of actions.
    50k dps is NOT TOO MUCH. If Blizzard wants players to get better they wont nerf the heck out of every fight when it takes mechanics. Yes, you use LFR to learn, but there is a point where it is just you being deadweight and leeching off those trying. Honestly even in timeless gear, sub 70k is just you being bad in some way. Even with just a 476 weapon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Psidum View Post
    I have not agreed with most of what you have said in this thread but i will stand behind you on this 100%. If there is consequence for people actions then things will improve, currently there is nothing. Personally i would prefer a specialized keyboard that electrocutes people when they act like a douche but you can't always get what you want.
    So do you consider calling to kick the bad dps being a douche? What about screaming at the other tank when you have asked 15 times for a taunt with no response. How about people just dying to avoidable mechanics, and wanting them kicked?

    There is being insulting, then there is hurting somebodies feelings. Im sorry if you are offended when I say you are bad and your dps sucks, but if you are the moonkin just using moonfire on GCD then you are bad and your dps sucks. If I go and start cursing at all the players who dont have 540+ gear for being terribad shitters, and saying "kick the scrubs under 200k" then I am being a douche. However, where to draw the line?

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