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  1. #501
    Do onto others.....
    Seriously i am nice to the tanks... unless they are "LOL I'M ELITE U NOOB" or blame the healer for everything even if it isn't the healer that is the issue

  2. #502
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    Tanks need more rewards to motivate them.
    We just need further ways to punish people who disrespect others in dungeons.


    I say add in some sort of rating system after each run for dungeons/scenarios... after each one, you get to rank the four other people in your group as positive or negative.

    After a while, people who get rated up as being positive would go "up" in rank and be more consistently grouped with one another, while people that are consistently ranked negatively would drop down into the other people who are rated negatively... you might even go as far as to reward increased valor/etc to people who are highly positively ranked.

    Gives incentive, no?
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #503
    Mechagnome
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    The only way to solve this issue is to lessen the load on tanks. That means increasing the relative presence of the role in a group, something like 8 tank 8 heal 9 DPS in a 25 man environment. Only then will players even think about playing the tank role, because they don't want to stand out by being one of the two tanks.

    Casual non-tank players are scared of tanking because they don't know everything about the boss/instance/raid, and are afraid of failing at something. Until these players start tanking by choice, tanks will be rare and have insta-queues.

  4. #504
    Did everyone miss the blue quote a while back where they said LFR is for people jumping in. You were never expected to have to look up videos. It's only the impatient people who can't stand to wipe who have a problem with having uninformed tanks.

    The primary difference between tanks, healers, and dps: 2, 5, 18

    It's *A LOT* easier to see mistakes tanks make than anyone else. People in LFR generally are not intelligent enough to look at what's going on, look at the numbers, and make an informed decision as to what the mistake was. Tanks are also front and center, generally, so mistakes are made obvious to everyone around them and also multiply if a boss is attacking them as they take significantly more damage.

    LFR also tends to prefer over-geared tanks. Many people in this thread seem to forget what it's like taking on content at the iLvl it was aimed for. This means SoO LFR is aimed at 496 entry. A tank with 496 gear and crap trinkets will take considerably more damage and be more difficult to heal than a 543 tank with nice trinkets. Healers tend to not like this as this means they can't carry another 2-3 healers.

    The only time I'll notice a DPS called out is when fights take too long *and* you wipe.

    I'll mention this again, because there's confusion: LFR is NOT aimed at people who have watched the video's. Period. Blue's have said such, pretty sure it was the flying bird dude... but I can't exactly recall and I'm about to head to bed. Google it or call me a liar. Whatever.

    Shift+J look for the shields, that's all you really need to know. Sometimes it's hard to know certain scales of things. Ok -- as an example that deals 80k + 50% each stack. Ok, so how many stacks is that? Is there also AoE damage that has to be taken in to account? Is it magic or physical?

    Ever notice how when a fight requires a DPS or healer to pay attention that it rarely happens? Case in point for healers: Sha of Pride trash.

    Ok, so some here have said that mechanics are yawn worthy... Keep banging on Elegon while that floor despawns and let me know how that works out for you. And how that walk of shame feels. It's a fantastic mechanic though -- you quickly go 'wtf' and fairly quickly figure out what and why -- allowing you to avoid it next time.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Xami View Post
    The only way to solve this issue is to lessen the load on tanks. That means increasing the relative presence of the role in a group, something like 8 tank 8 heal 9 DPS in a 25 man environment. Only then will players even think about playing the tank role, because they don't want to stand out by being one of the two tanks.

    Casual non-tank players are scared of tanking because they don't know everything about the boss/instance/raid, and are afraid of failing at something. Until these players start tanking by choice, tanks will be rare and have insta-queues.
    Aside from just creating huge waves of adds for those 8 tanks to pick up - how would you keep the 7 other tanks busy the whole fight?

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Xami View Post
    The only way to solve this issue is to lessen the load on tanks. That means increasing the relative presence of the role in a group, something like 8 tank 8 heal 9 DPS in a 25 man environment. Only then will players even think about playing the tank role, because they don't want to stand out by being one of the two tanks.

    Casual non-tank players are scared of tanking because they don't know everything about the boss/instance/raid, and are afraid of failing at something. Until these players start tanking by choice, tanks will be rare and have insta-queues.
    Or what about we make everybody actually do work? Currently only tanks and a couple heals/dps actually try. If the fights were made where everybody would need to be working hard tanks wouldn't feel so abused if thu saw people nothing out the failing dps a well.

    Ultraxion comes to mind. Even at the end groups woul kick those who die/pull low instead of stacking determination and carrying them. That was when LFR was stand able aside from the loot issues. Everybody actually had a job and the group held them to that job. A single Fall of Deathwing run kicked more bad/slacking players than all of Mists. Even on Naz when groups wipe at 30% to beserk they stack the buff until Rey blow through rather than kick those who aren't trying.

    I'm fine with casual content, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a joke. Make everybody and every role need to work, not just tanks and a couple others. Also fix vote kick

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Or what about we make everybody actually do work? Currently only tanks and a couple heals/dps actually try. If the fights were made where everybody would need to be working hard tanks wouldn't feel so abused if thu saw people nothing out the failing dps a well.

    Ultraxion comes to mind. Even at the end groups woul kick those who die/pull low instead of stacking determination and carrying them. That was when LFR was stand able aside from the loot issues. Everybody actually had a job and the group held them to that job. A single Fall of Deathwing run kicked more bad/slacking players than all of Mists. Even on Naz when groups wipe at 30% to beserk they stack the buff until Rey blow through rather than kick those who aren't trying.

    I'm fine with casual content, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a joke. Make everybody and every role need to work, not just tanks and a couple others. Also fix vote kick
    If you want to make everyone actually "work" - then you'll need to decrease the group size.

    Whenever you have 19 of anything - in this case, 19 DPS in a 25 man raid - it is going to be nigh impossible to require as much out of them as the role that only has 1 or 2 present.

    This is why, at least to me, it is ludicrous that raiding is considered the cream of the crop for challenging content in MMORPGs. Small group content is where the player can truly be tested.

  8. #508
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    We didn't all play paladins.

    Doesn't answer the question. Was it? Yes or no.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Doesn't answer the question. Was it? Yes or no.
    If you'd spend a little less time trying to be rude with your responses and a little more time reading the posts, your question was answered. Tanking wasn't about a "rotation" it was about awareness. Go back and spend some time paying attention to the thread you're attempting to be a part of. It'll make people a lot more willing to discuss things with you when you come off a tad bit less ignorant.

  10. #510
    Meh i dont know i've tanked quite a few LFR's recently and overall most of them were positive, people even commented on tanking quite a bit.

    However the ammount of DK's queing up with full pvp gear without any gems or enchants as a tank just to get queue's fast and get absolutely destroyed by Garrosh i.e. is ridiculous. I mean there is having lower gear or gearing up or even cheap gems/enchants but not having anything but blood pressence up can be quite annoying i'd assume for the healers anyway.

  11. #511
    people who say tanks don't get mistreated clearly don't do LFR very often. I've lost count of the times people just kick a tank that doesn't know the tactics rather than spending 1 minute explaining how it works. The amount of complete scrub dps I've carried through LFR, tanks still get more stick for being slightly undergeared or wearing the odd pvp piece.

    It defies logic that people would rather kick an inexperienced tank, wait 20mins for a chance of a slightly better tank - than explain tactics or maybe help the tank with his rotation. maybe you would wipe a couple of times because of his gear, but thats what the stacking buff is for. Quite a few people are waaaay too impatient in this game. I really don't see how being AFK in a queue is a better way to go about it.

    I'm not a tank btw. when I do tank it's for guildies or 5 mans.
    Last edited by Raidou; 2013-11-20 at 04:01 PM.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by pooli0 View Post
    Meh i dont know i've tanked quite a few LFR's recently and overall most of them were positive, people even commented on tanking quite a bit.

    However the ammount of DK's queing up with full pvp gear without any gems or enchants as a tank just to get queue's fast and get absolutely destroyed by Garrosh i.e. is ridiculous. I mean there is having lower gear or gearing up or even cheap gems/enchants but not having anything but blood pressence up can be quite annoying i'd assume for the healers anyway.
    Poor old DKs we always seem to get the most flack :*(

    I have seen warriors in pvp gear! :P

  13. #513
    I saw a Holy Pally yesterday.

    All of the facepalms.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Raidou View Post
    people who say tanks don't get mistreated clearly don't do LFR very often. I've lost count of the times people just kick a tank that doesn't know the tactics rather than spending 1 minute explaining how it works. The amount of complete scrub dps I've carried through LFR, tanks still get more stick for being slightly undergeared or wearing the odd pvp piece.

    It defies logic that people would rather kick an inexperienced tank, wait 20mins for a chance of a slightly better tank - than explain tactics or maybe help the tank with his rotation. maybe you would wipe a couple of times because of his gear, but thats what the stacking buff is for. Quite a few people are waaaay too impatient in this game. I really don't see how being AFK in a queue is a better way to go about it.

    I'm not a tank btw. when I do tank it's for guildies or 5 mans.

    I agree with this... are there bad tanks? Yep but it's the exception and in LFR , in SOO tank will rarely wipe you if they know the basics.
    In my last LFR I had a Ret pally who did 9k DPS.
    I often get my share of sub 40k but 9k is just absurd, so after a wipe or two we finally kicked him. The tank then said, thanks for kicking my friend, started Norushen and bailed.

    Anyways... I often see people bitching at tank for not having the proper enchants/gems when in reality it's all those shitty sub40k dps that are causing us to wipe.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorret View Post
    I agree with this... are there bad tanks? Yep but it's the exception and in LFR , in SOO tank will rarely wipe you if they know the basics.
    In my last LFR I had a Ret pally who did 9k DPS.
    I often get my share of sub 40k but 9k is just absurd, so after a wipe or two we finally kicked him. The tank then said, thanks for kicking my friend, started Norushen and bailed.

    Anyways... I often see people bitching at tank for not having the proper enchants/gems when in reality it's all those shitty sub40k dps that are causing us to wipe.
    Similar thing yesterday we booted a guy who was doing 40k dps (He was brought up for doing almost 100% damage to Nazgrim and nothing to the adds while STILL only doing 40kdps) Person said "3 people under 40kdps and we're wiping to enrage timer". Said person asked them to step it up and please attack the adds so we can get them down faster so more people can then damage the boss. This person gets a wall of abuse from this low dps guy. We kick him for flaming. His buddy whos the "instance leader" who did no leading or marking then goes OMFG THIS IS LFR.

    I reminded him LFR is no place for flaming/negative nellys such as that guy. I get flamed in PMs and we vote kick this muppet (it was actually the other guys buddy!) Annoys me as I just want a smooth run wipings OK you can go ok we did x y z can we improve on this a bit is everyone OK on tactics etc. But moment someone starts the flame wars or just being an ass its time to vote kick LFR or not I don't put up with that shit.

  16. #516
    I don't often read an entire 26 pages of a thread, but I did in this case, simply because I wanted to hear the varied thought processes of players that tank. Since this thread seems to be focused around the OP of LFR, that will be my frame of reference, rather than 5-mans or normal raiding, for which my views are slightly different.

    As a healer with a generally positive outlook until proven otherwise, I have seen the entire spectrum of LFR tanks in this expansion. Tanks that come in prepared with dungeon journal info, gems and enchants, who communicate with the raid and their fellow tanks, do ready checks, know their spec. For that kind of tank - a good player in general - gear isn't much of an issue. Good healers will recognize a good tank who may still be a little squishy, and adjust their heals accordingly. Good DPS and good healers will appreciate a simple and honest notification - "first time here" - and allow the tanks a minute to discuss strat without becoming impatient.

    But I've also been in LFR with tanks that are in no way prepared, in their 496 or PvP gear with no gems or enchants, equipped and spec'd in prot only to get instant queues. No experience tanking the instance or desire to at the very least read the dungeon journal, maybe no experience tanking PERIOD, and expecting to get carried by the other tank, healers and DPS in order to collect their ret loot.

    Setting aside the "perfect" tank from a healer's perspective - geared, knowledgeable, communicative, considerate - that may make up 10% of the tanking population that I've come into contact with (no, it isn't scientific, and is only based on my personal experiences), the good-but-under-geared are far outnumbered by the bad-and-under-geared.

    But as with most discussions of LFR, I always come back to the root cause. And it isn't tanks. Or healers. Or low DPS, or Timeless Isle, or casuals, or any other of the thousands of reasons brought forward to explain why <insert WoW group element here> sucks.

    It's people. It's the lack of consequences for your actions, either official (account banning) or unofficial (realm "black-listing"). Anonymity allows bad behavior to seep (and sometimes pour). And that is a fact not limited to WoW, or video games in general, or even the internet as a whole. It's just innate for some to capitalize on the freedom anonymity allows by acting in a way that would be either disallowed or socially punished in real life, because there are just no real life consequences.

    I play WoW because I like people. If I didn't, I would stick to single-player games. I like sharing accomplishments, tackling challenges, and socializing with other people, both in and outside my guild, both in and outside my realm, with whatever cooperative/group content is available. So as long as a tank - regardless of i-level or instance experience - seems like a decent human being, I have unlimited patience. Decent human beings need to be encouraged to continue to try. And the key to that, at least in my opinion, is communication. I have seen the atmosphere of an LFR change from toxic to cooperative in less than 5 minutes, when two or three people keep a civil and constructive tone, and ignore the negative. I make it a point to whisper a new or under-geared tank (or healer, or DPS for that matter) who performed well, at the end of LFR, and I always get appreciative and very candid responses. We're all human. We all respond to praise, but good players will also respond to criticism or advice when given in a polite and constructive way by improving their gameplay. If the tanks do well, tell them. If they do great, broadcast it in instance chat.

    TLDR: the root cause can't be fixed, but we can make small changes to our own behavior to encourage (and therefore reward) players that are willing to try, but are turning away from tanking because of the blame game.

  17. #517
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    If you'd spend a little less time trying to be rude with your responses and a little more time reading the posts, your question was answered. Tanking wasn't about a "rotation" it was about awareness. Go back and spend some time paying attention to the thread you're attempting to be a part of. It'll make people a lot more willing to discuss things with you when you come off a tad bit less ignorant.

    Which fight is hard as a tank?

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    Which fight is hard as a tank?
    I dont think its about which role is the hardest or who is better or worse than someone else. tanks are responsible for staying alive or everybody else dies. more often than not they get treated as scapegoats for fails because normally they are the first to die. it could be because the healers are oom because the dps are standing in fire, or healing the AFK guy by the door and out of range, it could be undergeared healers, or dps failing on vital mechanics (like standing over orbs on nuroshen(or however u spell it)) and causing massive dmg to raid, or it could be an actual tank fail. healers also have this but there's more of them and you're more likely to have 1 or 2 good healers to allow for a couple of bad ones. its easier to pick on 2 guys who are slightly undergeared than it is to pick on 6 healers, with half of them prob doing a good job.

    Plus I noticed healers tend to stick up for each other more like a pack, because normally its half the dps's fault for being shit and not moving or trying to zerg the encounter because they can't handle anything else.
    Last edited by Raidou; 2013-11-20 at 06:30 PM.

  19. #519
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I know, and I said the VTK system is broken as well. But really, go do a Naz LFR that the group wipes to enrage. Link meters, point out people below...60k? Thats generous tbh. Say kick these people. Watch the insults flow, possibly angry whispers or the group just does nothing and pulls again, possibly somebody says something about determination saving them.
    That is why it is best to stand outside the room while listing potential candidates for the boot. Or at the very least be prepared to bouble hearth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by love45acp View Post
    I don't often read an entire 26 pages of a thread, but I did in this case, simply because I wanted to hear the varied thought processes of players that tank. Since this thread seems to be focused around the OP of LFR, that will be my frame of reference, rather than 5-mans or normal raiding, for which my views are slightly different.

    As a healer with a generally positive outlook until proven otherwise, I have seen the entire spectrum of LFR tanks in this expansion. Tanks that come in prepared with dungeon journal info, gems and enchants, who communicate with the raid and their fellow tanks, do ready checks, know their spec. For that kind of tank - a good player in general - gear isn't much of an issue. Good healers will recognize a good tank who may still be a little squishy, and adjust their heals accordingly. Good DPS and good healers will appreciate a simple and honest notification - "first time here" - and allow the tanks a minute to discuss strat without becoming impatient.

    But I've also been in LFR with tanks that are in no way prepared, in their 496 or PvP gear with no gems or enchants, equipped and spec'd in prot only to get instant queues. No experience tanking the instance or desire to at the very least read the dungeon journal, maybe no experience tanking PERIOD, and expecting to get carried by the other tank, healers and DPS in order to collect their ret loot.

    Setting aside the "perfect" tank from a healer's perspective - geared, knowledgeable, communicative, considerate - that may make up 10% of the tanking population that I've come into contact with (no, it isn't scientific, and is only based on my personal experiences), the good-but-under-geared are far outnumbered by the bad-and-under-geared.

    If Tanks, and I am making this statement based on posts in the past where dps feel that tanks are no better than them and do not inherently have to position of leader, are not the leader of the group then where does all this smarmy care bear perspective of a tank needing to be communicative and considerate of all things even come in to play?

    Be geared, hold threat, position the boss. THAT is ALL that should be required of any tank in an LF"R" setting.





    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post

    If Tanks, and I am making this statement based on posts in the past where dps feel that tanks are no better than them and do not inherently have to position of leader, are not the leader of the group then where does all this smarmy care bear perspective of a tank needing to be communicative and considerate of all things even come in to play?

    Be geared, hold threat, position the boss. THAT is ALL that should be required of any tank in an LF"R" setting.
    The "perfect" tank - who is geared, holding threat, and properly positioning the boss - is typically a natural leader anyway, in my experience, which is why I specifically said "setting aside" those players. I think we may be on the same side of the issue, apart from the fact that I don't think you have to be über-geared to be a successful LFR tank.

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