PT Standards in Question for Women in Combat

[GreatOak]

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...4213943&rank=2

The Marine Corps may have to change its physical standards in order to put females in positions to one day lead infantry platoons in combat.

Both the Marine Corps and the Army continue to wrestle with the mandate that former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta issued in January, directing the U.S. military to open hundreds of combat-arms jobs that have been closed to female servicemembers.

So far, the Marines have been out ahead.

The service has opened up infantry training to female officers and enlisted Marines as part of an effort to gather data on how females and males compare when performing infantry and other combat-arms-related skills, and how those findings relate to current male and female physical fitness standards.

The effort is scheduled to run until fall of 2014, but the results so far have drawn attention.

On Sept. 24, 15 enlisted female Marines began training with Delta Company at the Infantry Training Battalion course. Four of the initial volunteers remain in the course and are approaching the Nov. 21 graduation date.

So far, a total of 39 females have volunteered for the training and 23 remain, spread out over three classes. To qualify, the females had to pass the same physical screening as male Marines. At a minimum, they had to be able to do three pull-ups, 50 crunches in two minutes and run 3 miles in 28 minutes on the Physical Fitness Test.

Female Marine officers attempting to enter the Infantry Officer Course are not expected to meet the same physical fitness screening standards as male Marines, but they do have to match male performance in the course.

IOC is a demanding 13-week school that historically averages a 25-percent attrition rate. The first day puts students through a grueling Combat Endurance Test that consists of physically and academically challenging tasks that last all day, said Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Maureen Krebs. Marines wear combat gear, perform various physical tasks and answer tactical questions while negotiating a land-navigation course, she said.

All IOC candidates are pre-screened before they even show up for the course. Like their male counterparts, females need to have a top-level score on the PFT -- but under the Marine Corps female standard, not the male one, which does not require pull-ups.

Pull-ups are required on the Male PFT, and the standard requires 20 for a max score.

The Marine Corps began experimenting with women performing pull-ups during the PFT about a year ago, but it's not mandatory. And women who do choose to do pull-ups only have to perform eight for a max score.

"It doesn’t set them up for success and actually puts them at risk for injury," said one Marine official with a background in physical fitness training. "A lot of the tasks on that course require students to lift their own body weight plus their equipment."

So far, the results have not been promising. Nine of the 10 females that volunteered out of The Basic Course failed to make it through the first day of IOC. The remaining female volunteer dropped because of an injury from the course a week later.

The Marine Corps will continue to allow female Marines to go through IOC and ITB until the research phase ends next fall. From there, the data will be compiled into a recommendation to Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel on how the Corps intends to open up certain combat-arms jobs to women by Jan. 1, 2016.

The Corps has also been evaluating the physically-demanded tasks required for combat-arms related jobs in about 335 Military Occupation Specialties.

The service conducted "proxy tests" this summer, involving 400 females and 400 males at Quantico Marine Base, Va., and at Camp Lejeune, N.C. The tests looked at tasks such as "lifting a tank round and loading it," Krebs said.

"The data from the performance on those proxy tests will be correlated against the performance of the Marines doing physical fitness and combat fitness test events," Krebs said.

"And we will kind of see … if a Marine gets a 300 on the PFT and CFT; how well they do on the MOS tasks. So we are looking at that to see … whether or not these physical standards are applicable to these MOSs.

"Depending on what the data says, and what it shows, it will decide whether or not any of the standards for the MOSs need to change."

It's unclear if the Marine Corps will decide to require males and females to perform the same PFT standards, but officials said that the service has no plans to lower the physical requirements of Marine infantry training.

"Those physically-demanding tasks are performance-based standards that all Marines in that MOS must be able to perform," Krebs said. "So whether you are male or whether you are female, that's the standard and that is what we are going to hold it to."



tl;dr Women are having a hard time passing the physical standards for armed combat and the stirrings of changing the standards are already happening.

This is what I feared. It seems like they're already beginning to consider lowering the standards for women. I'm all for females operating in combat assuming yet can pass the same tests as males. Enemies aren't going to lower their standards because of political correctness.

[Deleted]

Yup, I think we all saw this coming. I feel sorry for anybody joining the US Infantry in the next few years, you are in for a very rough time.

[Xeones]

Woah woah woah I believe in equality. EQUALITY, I do not want people dying because they lowered standards.

[Sunseeker]

My primary concern is that it is open for them to attempt. I don't really care if they succeed.

[Deleted]

I do want a few to make it just so we can see how destroyed their bodies are after a few deployments, women are not built to carry 100lbs+ for all day, every day for months on end.

[GreatOak]

To me this was the most telling part of the article:

"It doesn’t set them up for success and actually puts them at risk for injury," said one Marine official with a background in physical fitness training. "A lot of the tasks on that course require students to lift their own body weight plus their equipment."

So far, the results have not been promising. Nine of the 10 females that volunteered out of The Basic Course failed to make it through the first day of IOC. The remaining female volunteer dropped because of an injury from the course a week later.

[Spectral]

Well, we knew this was coming. The physical standards in the military are a joke already, but let's make them even more of a joke so no one has to catch a sad.

- - - Updated - - -

My primary concern is that it is open for them to attempt. I don't really care if they succeed.

The problem with it being open to them is that this is a the inevitable outcome. While I'm fine, in principle, with all jobs being open competition, it was such a mortal lock that this was going to happen that I'd have rather drawn a line in the sand earlier.

[GreatOak]

Well, we knew this was coming. The physical standards in the military are a fucking joke already, but let's make them even more of a joke so no one has to catch a sad.

- - - Updated - - -



The problem with it being open to them is that this is a the inevitable outcome. While I'm fine, in principle, with all jobs being open competition, it was such a mortal lock that this was going to happen that I'd have rather drawn a line in the sand earlier.

Yeah, the number of pull ups needed is hilariously low. Feelings and political correctness matter more than operational success I guess.

[Endus]

There should be one set of physical standards, for jobs/roles like this. Either you can physically handle the job requirements, or you can't. It should be that simple.

That said, those standards should also reflect realistic needs and expectations for the job. Deliberately picking a standard that women will struggle to pass, when what it tests isn't really a factor in the field, is not something we should be doing. I'm all for reviewing Marine standards in light of a more egalitarian system, but it should be a single physical standard for both genders, based on what they'll need to be able to do, to do the job. If that means less women make it through, so be it, because you've established that they need to pass those standards to be capable of the role.

[Spectral]

Yeah, the number of pull ups needed is hilariously low. Feelings and political correctness matter more than operational success I guess.

That's the part that bugs me - it's not like the standards were unreasonably high and at a level that no one really needs for combat. If anything, they're low in the first place. Here's the Army Ranger fitness page:

To be competitive in any of these physical tests, the future Ranger students must not strive for the minimum standards above, but must maximize their personal physical effort and strive for the following:

- Pushups - 80-100
- Situps - 80-100
- Chin ups - 15-20
- 2 mile run - under 13:00

So, they're saying that's like OMG AWESOME. For Rangers. Those are easy targets for anyone that's interested in fitness much at all. To be fair, the actual program that Rangers go through isn't soft, but the physical standards necessary are.

[GreatOak]

The physical requirements are already pretty low. You need to be able to lift your body weight, the body weight of potential fellow marines, and equipment. You also need the endurance to carry it for long periods of time.


Edit: Spectral beat me to it

[artemishunter1]

Use the magic word GENDER NEUTRAL. See suddenly lowering standard and selling it to public does not sound so bad, does it? Thats how the upcoming battle will be fought. Gender Neutral would be used 100 percent, if they want to sell it to public.

[Deleted]

That's the part that bugs me - it's not like the standards were unreasonably high and at a level that no one really needs for combat. If anything, they're low in the first place. Here's the Army Ranger fitness page:



So, they're saying that's like OMG AWESOME. Those are easy for anyone that's interested in fitness much at all.

Every British Army Infanteer is expected to hit those standards, anything less than 10 mins on your BFT will land you in the bifters brigade, keep failing it and you are out.

[Spectral]

Use the magic word GENDER NEUTRAL. See suddenly lowering standard and selling it to public does not sound so bad, does it? Thats how the upcoming battle will be fought. Gender Neutral would be used 100 percent, if they want to sell it to public.

In the present social milieu, anything that women don't do equally as well as men will be regarded as unfair discrimination by a substantial subset of people that want everything to be equal, full stop, all the time.

[artemishunter1]

There should be one set of physical standards, for jobs/roles like this. Either you can physically handle the job requirements, or you can't. It should be that simple.

That said, those standards should also reflect realistic needs and expectations for the job. Deliberately picking a standard that women will struggle to pass, when what it tests isn't really a factor in the field, is not something we should be doing. I'm all for reviewing Marine standards in light of a more egalitarian system, but it should be a single physical standard for both genders, based on what they'll need to be able to do, to do the job. If that means less women make it through, so be it, because you've established that they need to pass those standards to be capable of the role.

Use the magic word "gender neutral". Oh by the way our standard is already lacking compared to NATO troops.

[Spectral]

Every British Army Infanteer is expected to hit those standards, anything less than 10 mins on your BFT will land you in the bifters brigade, keep failing it and you are out.

I'm under the impression that this is the standard for our Marines as well, or so I've been told by Marine buddies that like to shit on Rangers. I can't really see why they wouldn't be a minimum for combat. If my ass is on the line, I don't want the guy next to be to be slow or weak.

[artemishunter1]

In the present social milieu, anything that women don't do equally as well as men will be regarded as unfair discrimination by a substantial subset of people that want everything to be equal, full stop, all the time.

not unfair, faminists and their supporters would use "unrealistic". They will say current standard is deliberately set to bar woman from entering the marines. Mark my word, the magic words "gender neutral" and "unrealistic" going to be used.

[Molestron]

Next, they'll lower standards to allow handicaped people to join the marines. Soon being in a wheelchair won't mean you can't defend your country on the frontlines.

[Deleted]

Next, they'll lower standards to allow handicaped people to join the marines. Soon being in a wheelchair won't mean you can't defend your country on the frontlines.

Discrimination don't you know? *mumbles something about robots and mechs*.

[OzoAndIndi]

They shouldn't lower it, not at all... Up to each individual if they can make it through, and doesn't matter their gender because lets face it many guys aren't cut out for being a Marine either.

Even if few women are able to get through it, really.. simply having few in number is less insulting than the suggestion of "lowering the standards" so women can do it. At least there can be pride in the small numbers that do make it.

My primary concern is that it is open for them to attempt. I don't really care if they succeed.

Yeah, exactly as I feel. It's really about having the freedom to make your own life choices and are able to try something, no matter if you pass or fail in the end.