Full Crit as Sub?

[Yodawinfrey]

Just started sub and I've seen many rogues basically dumping everything into crit. I have gone by what Shadowcraft has said and so far been getting fairly decent results. My question is, why are a lot of rogues going full crit(as sub)? Is there a certain haste break point that I'm not aware of? I understand how the 2pc works, but, it seems that it wouldn't warrant dumping everything into crit. Most of them seem to be going heavy, heavy crit, then haste, then mastery. The reason I ask is because I do like to min/max as much as I can. If going full crit is fairing better results for sub, then I'd like to give it a try. But, I don't want to dump everything into crit if there is some unforeseen reason why I should or shouldn't. I will link my shadowcraft profile below. Which, is showing me crit as my lowest stat weight. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: As far as I can tell it's basically just reforging into crit, leaving Agi/Haste gems in yellow sockets and pure Agi in red sockets. EDIT2: After browsing some more sub rogues, some with Agi/Mastery in yellow sockets. Just trying to make sense out of all of this. With Mut/Combat it seemed very cut and dry as how to reforge/gem. I do realize to each their own as far as reforging/gemming goes. Reason why some gem agi/haste in yellow, while others agi/mastery. I'd just like to know if forging into crit would yield better overall dps as well as damage.

SCraft: http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...5J+gq4UwzY4gM=

[Kael]

Are you sure these "crit sub rogues" are reforged/gemmed for sub and not assassination? If all of the anomalous rogues have a second spec with assassination, I can give you a quick answer.

I suspect that (most) are gemmed/reforged for either combat or assassination.

Although beyond that, I'm assuming you're talking about PvE (you mention the 2p)? PvP would be completely different. Who are these "lot of rogues," and do you have any reason to suspect they know how to play?

Alternatively, are their haste/mastery stats so high that crit has overtaken them with the 2p? All secondary values ARE relatively close together, so it wouldn't be too shocking, if they see a lot of haste/mastery gear.



But to your real question - it's unlikely reforging crit would help you in sub, no.

[Yodawinfrey]

Most of these rogues are either more progressed or as progressed as I am. So I assume that they know how to play sub, and play it fairly well at that. Also, most of them are Combat/Sub. So that would rule out going full crit for combat as that's not viable. And yes, I am speaking of PvE. With the haste/mastery stats question, I'm not sure. Even some who are close in ilvl to me are dumping into full crit. As you can see with me, crit is my lowest weight. So I'd have to say, stat haste/mastery being so high that crit is over taking them would be ruled out too.

I almost feel at this point that they're doing it just because. Also, a part of me thinks they're doing it for some type of reason and not just because too.

[kilj]

I dont stack crit, but my ms is assass and I play sub on single target. I go Haste > Mastery > Crit. Still manage to rank on most fights

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...kashi/advanced

[Kael]

I'm not sure, then. In your gear, while you point out Crit is your lowest weight, it's very close to mastery - a little tweaking and crit pulls ahead - but haste remains clearly in the lead. However, for pieces of gear which have haste, the ideal reforge would vary based on relatively minute changes in the balance of mastery v. crit. Even then, haste is not THAT far ahead (reforging your gear closes 1/3 of the gap).

Gemming crit would definitely be the weirder part. If you start seeing that (over agility) it's time to re-question things, but if they main sub, reforging into crit doesn't seem to be THAT weird in theory - have you tried loading some of their profiles into Shadowcraft?

[Coldkil]

Well, 2t16 boosts value of crit substantially for Assa and by a decent amount for Sub, which anyway has crit more valuable than other specs.

I run mainspec sub with offspec assa, often i reforge into crit because haste is the primary stat no matter what, and crit is the second one; maybe not optimal for assa since it favore a balance of the three but still very viable.

Crit has simply quite a nice value for sub and assa, no wonder people reforge into it. Going "full crit" usually means "reforge mastery into crit"; gemming for it isn't recommended anyway.

[Warstar]

Why would the 2 pc. t16 boost crit for sub? Would be understandable if HaT was a personal buff but since it's a raid wide thing with a 2 second icd in any sort of group situation you should be getting those cp every 2 seconds even if it's not you critting.

With my gear shadowcraft has sub with agi>haste>crit>mastery with agi gems for red, agi/haste for yellow and agi/hit for blue sockets.

What is it about sub that would even make crit a higher value than mastery anyways?

[kilj]

All crit does for assass is more seal fate procs..... But if your on a fight aka thok... that crit isnt doing you any good where you could have your dots ticking away harder on the boss because of mastery. Its really situational. Also for sub.... 4 pc still garbage lolololol

[Coldkil]

Why would the 2 pc. t16 boost crit for sub? Would be understandable if HaT was a personal buff but since it's a raid wide thing with a 2 second icd in any sort of group situation you should be getting those cp every 2 seconds even if it's not you critting.

With my gear shadowcraft has sub with agi>haste>crit>mastery with agi gems for red, agi/haste for yellow and agi/hit for blue sockets.

What is it about sub that would even make crit a higher value than mastery anyways?

Your crit counts towards HaT procs. I see how it's highly unlikely that no one in your raid crits at least once in the 2 seconds window, but your crit chance will guarantee a smoother rotation. Also mastery looks good on paper, but the damage boost on finishers and speed on SnD isn't that high as it seems.

My stat weights on ShC with my gear:
Haste 1.565
Crit 1.438
Mastery 1.344

The difference isn't that big, we're really talking about small differences (not the same level as Assassination though).

[mongoose6]

After extensive fidgeting around with shadowcraft, I've found Haste>Crit>Mastery to be the best option. However, all options were within 400 dps of each other so not a big deal at all. I've been trying to go combat more often of recent so I've started just going full on haste and I actually like the results for sub with T16 4-piece. It's just anecdotal but it seems like with more haste, I get more 4 set procs when it actually counts.

[Warstar]

Your crit counts towards HaT procs. I see how it's highly unlikely that no one in your raid crits at least once in the 2 seconds window, but your crit chance will guarantee a smoother rotation. Also mastery looks good on paper, but the damage boost on finishers and speed on SnD isn't that high as it seems.

My stat weights on ShC with my gear:
Haste 1.565
Crit 1.438
Mastery 1.344

The difference isn't that big, we're really talking about small differences (not the same level as Assassination though).

Could you potentially go a haste/mastery build as sub for bigger burst and see a relatively similar but slightly lower over all dps? Seems like that'd tie in well with an assassination/sub combo.

[Coldkil]

Could you potentially go a haste/mastery build as sub for bigger burst and see a relatively similar but slightly lower over all dps? Seems like that'd tie in well with an assassination/sub combo.

Very likely yes. Can do a reforge for next reset and post logs just in case (beware, normal runs only since we're apparently baddies XD)

EDIT: lost a whooping 580 dps on ShC, gained small amount of mastery and lost a small amount of crit. I think that until i mess up stat weights i can swap easily between the two even with standard Sub reforges.

Also tried to swap specs to assassination, using standard Sub reforges - hitting "regem" doesn't change a thing, hitting "reforge" makes me gain 14 dps. Standard Sub reforges will work well for assassination too.

[shadowboy]

crit is generally not a bad stat right now. Crit is ahead of mastery on my combat rogue right now (or very close to it, I had to balance the two stats to get the most, some pieces reforged into crit, some reforged into mastery).

I suspect it's not the T16 2-set that boost's crit value vs mastery, but the legendary cloak and the legendary meta gem. Both procs can crit, but they do not benefit from mastery for any of the specs, leading to the legendary meta and legendary cloak increasing the value of crit and haste for all 3 specs, but not mastery. As such, the value of mastery for all 3 specs has fallen compared to prior tiers.

[Warstar]

crit is generally not a bad stat right now. Crit is ahead of mastery on my combat rogue right now (or very close to it, I had to balance the two stats to get the most, some pieces reforged into crit, some reforged into mastery).

I suspect it's not the T16 2-set that boost's crit value vs mastery, but the legendary cloak and the legendary meta gem. Both procs can crit, but they do not benefit from mastery for any of the specs, leading to the legendary meta and legendary cloak increasing the value of crit and haste for all 3 specs, but not mastery. As such, the value of mastery for all 3 specs has fallen compared to prior tiers.

As combat it still has haste>mastery>crit for me which reforge swapping between mastery and crit with all of ~100 dps difference. Honestly with gear right now it seems like higher ilv > stat priority since all 3 stats are fairly good. I know their are BiS lists and all but it seems like the difference between gear if you can get warforged something rather than holding out on that BiS item would be a dps gain than passing on it and even that the end results would be rather trivial.

[Yodawinfrey]

Take, Bromosapien for example. He's full crit as sub. Reforging most crit out of mastery(As well as some haste out of crit) even though in SCraft crit is his lowest stat weight. He has even posted some logs on a Sub WoL comparison thread pulling GREAT numbers as sub.

EDIT: After comparing myself with some of these other rogues, our haste/crit seems to be around the same. I guess with most of them having quite a bit higher ilvl than myelf, they don't have to reforge much hit/exp out of mastery/crit/haste. So most of them seem to be reforging crit out of mastery the most it seems. I guess it's just a gear ilvl thing.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced

[Fluorescent0]

Take, Bromosapien for example. He's full crit as sub. Reforging most crit out of mastery(As well as some haste out of crit) even though in SCraft crit is his lowest stat weight. He has even posted some logs on a Sub WoL comparison thread pulling GREAT numbers as sub.

EDIT: After comparing myself with some of these other rogues, our haste/crit seems to be around the same. I guess with most of them having quite a bit higher ilvl than myelf, they don't have to reforge much hit/exp out of mastery/crit/haste. So most of them seem to be reforging crit out of mastery the most it seems. I guess it's just a gear ilvl thing.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced

He's not going full crit, he's following a haste > crit > mastery priority. Don't get the two mixed up.

[Yodawinfrey]

Yea, Fluorescent, that's why I added the EDIT part. Sorry about that. After I did more research I came to that same conclusion. I guess with a little more gear that crit will most likely over take mastery for me even though at this time they are VERY close in weights. Thanks for all the responses though!

[shadowboy]

As combat it still has haste>mastery>crit for me which reforge swapping between mastery and crit with all of ~100 dps difference. Honestly with gear right now it seems like higher ilv > stat priority since all 3 stats are fairly good. I know their are BiS lists and all but it seems like the difference between gear if you can get warforged something rather than holding out on that BiS item would be a dps gain than passing on it and even that the end results would be rather trivial.

Absolutely, right now crit and mastery are so close for my rogue that I need to balance them. Examples: I have warforged spoils bracers. I've reforged the hit to mastery. I also have the warforged ordos legs. I've reforged the mastery to haste on those and left the crit as-is.

[Coldkil]

Slightly offtopic, but now i can understand why they're going to remove reforging.

Back on topic - yes, haste>crit>mastery seems the bast option if you run Sub/Assa, maybe will change a little if you offspec combat. The differences between stats are so small that dps changes are nearly irrelevant.

[Warstar]

Slightly offtopic, but now i can understand why they're going to remove reforging.

Back on topic - yes, haste>crit>mastery seems the bast option if you run Sub/Assa, maybe will change a little if you offspec combat. The differences between stats are so small that dps changes are nearly irrelevant.

While this works for one class a lot of classes are still very stat heavy on one stat like crit for warriors/fire mages so for those people reforging would be nice ya know?