Can someone explain Jaina and Garrosh's awful characterization to me?

[IzoGray]

Sorry if you think this thread is dumb but I think it's even dumber how, with these 2 characters for example, the characterization has fallen flat on it's face.


Jaina was a person who knew that bad people existed and didn't blanket the entire Horde as a faction worthy of death. Now, because of ONE orc who she's well aware of, she wants the entire faction disbanded and believes everyone there is distrustful. It's stupid. Doesn't make sense.


Garrosh went from being a brat to a warrior who learned about honor. Then, literally after 1 patch with no back story, he's a villain. He went from "HONOR!" to "WAR!" in 1 stupid patch.

Someone please explain to me why Blizzard thinks it's ok to poorly characterize their important figures just because they need a story to be where it needs to be. It obviously doesn't make the story any better.

[Jtbrig7390]

Sorry if you think this thread is dumb but I think it's even dumber how, with these 2 characters for example, the characterization has fallen flat on it's face.


Jaina was a person who knew that bad people existed and didn't blanket the entire Horde as a faction worthy of death. Now, because of ONE orc who she's well aware of, she wants the entire faction disbanded and believes everyone there is distrustful. It's stupid. Doesn't make sense.


Garrosh went from being a brat to a warrior who learned about honor. Then, literally after 1 patch with no back story, he's a villain. He went from "HONOR!" to "WAR!" in 1 stupid patch.

Someone please explain to me why Blizzard thinks it's ok to poorly characterize their important figures just because they need a story to be where it needs to be. It obviously doesn't make the story any better.

Personallly all I can say is blame blizzard.

I really hate what they did with Garrosh and I am not a fan of what they did with Jaina ether and I personally feel some point down the like history will repeat itself and we fight Jaina.

[IzoGray]

I hope people don't think this thread is pointless because I admit that I'm probably missing some piece of information here, as I would geniunely like to know how any of this trash makes sense.

[KrazyK923]

I don't think Jaina's characterization is awful at all. There was an actual progression for how and why she got to where she did.

Compare that to Garrosh, where he went from anti-hero to just straight up villain because Blizzard needed him to without really any explanation.

[Deleted]

It didnt happen within one patch only. It happend in cata already. Garrosh find the current horde too weak. He also does not like watching Thrall chilling with Jaina and the alliance. He just wants his horde to be proud and strong and stuff. However, once he was in charge things got a little out of hand ...his lust for more power included. So yeah , give a maniac power and see how it goes. Worked pretty well for dictatorships in world's history ...

[RyanEX]

Sorry if you think this thread is dumb but I think it's even dumber how, with these 2 characters for example, the characterization has fallen flat on it's face.


Jaina was a person who knew that bad people existed and didn't blanket the entire Horde as a faction worthy of death. Now, because of ONE orc who she's well aware of, she wants the entire faction disbanded and believes everyone there is distrustful. It's stupid. Doesn't make sense.


Garrosh went from being a brat to a warrior who learned about honor. Then, literally after 1 patch with no back story, he's a villain. He went from "HONOR!" to "WAR!" in 1 stupid patch.

Someone please explain to me why Blizzard thinks it's ok to poorly characterize their important figures just because they need a story to be where it needs to be. It obviously doesn't make the story any better.

With regards to Jaina, it WASN'T just one orc. One orc didn't assault her home.
One orc didn't drop the bomb that destroyed her home.

People like to pin everything on Garrosh but the rest of the Horde aren't innocent in any of this. Vol'Jin was quite happy taking trophies off of Alliance bodies and was trying to get Baine more into the battle. Jaina's reaction was, for the first time, actually realistic.

[icausewipes]

Garrosh is not a villain. He wanted the survival of the True Orcs and did everything in his power to accomplish this. Jaina is part of the Alliance and they are scum.

[Faroth]

Jaina

She's always been a supporter of peace and believed that the orcs were misunderstood, but as Varian argued in Wrath, where has that led? Time after time the orcs have turned on the Alliance and started renewed aggression. They attacked the Alliance from behind on the Broken Front when there was no conflict between Horde and Alliance. They've attacked Sentinels in Ashenvale despite the peace treaties over the years, they supported Garrosh, wiped out Northwatch Hold, and obliterated Theramore off the face of the map. Peace with the orcs has been failure after failure, yet she still hoped that Horde and Alliance could work together in peace. Then she found that her way of thinking was once again being used to steal a weapon of great power to use against the Alliance right under her nose.

Her characterization can be summed up as "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me half a dozen times and I've been a blind idiot."

I agree they went a little overboard with heavy mascarra and "I sound a little evil" voice acting, but she's actually gone down a reasonable path. Her suggestion is to force the Horde to disband, not slaughter them all or imprison them forever. Her suggestion is essentially what makes the most sense and from an Earth history perspective is what you do with a conquered nation pretty often.

Garrosh
If you think Garrosh went from "honor" to "War!" in a single patch, you really weren't paying attention. He's been a slow build and the signs and writing was on the wall now and then the whole time.

His actions in the Ulduar trailer and at the Argent Tournament were clear indicators that he wasn't entirely getting on board Thrall's philosophy train.

[mvaliz]

OK... get out a pen and paper because this is going to be a very long thesis of an explanation.

You ready? OK...

*cough*

Bad Writing

...did you get all that?

[Mad_Murdock]

When you say 1 stupid patch, You mean 1 Expansion right ? Garrosh was always borderline asshole. He just went full asshole this expansion. The first time I heard Garrosh say "Serve the Horde or get Crushed beneath it" screamed "something isn't right with this guy"

Jaina has been "Let's all get along and hold hands for a while" Then Garrosh dropped the "Wake up!" bomb on her and from there, she was betrayed by the Horde side of those she trusted. Losing people you love, will shake your very foundation and will often test you in ways you once thought was unshakable. I totally get why she went off into deep space anger mode. I don't think she's bat shit crazy, she's just nobody's fool any longer.

The gameplay of this game, just can't get into every little detail like a single player game can. They painted a broad picture and fined turned it over the course of MoP. Not perfect, but if you work with it a little, you can see it's not just 1 patch everything turned 180.

[SirBadass]

I don't think Jaina's characterization is awful at all. There was an actual progression for how and why she got to where she did.

Compare that to Garrosh, where he went from anti-hero to just straight up villain because Blizzard needed him to without really any explanation.

Her reasons for hating the Horde are justified

The problem is even after Theramore is nuked she keeps switching between being reasonable and wanting to kill everyone

[Faroth]

When you say 1 stupid patch, You mean 1 Expansion right ? Garrosh was always borderline asshole. He just went full asshole this expansion. The first time I heard Garrosh say "Serve the Horde or get Crushed beneath it" screamed, something isn't right with this guy.

Isn't the "serve or be crushed beneath it" a throw back to the original Horde?

- - - Updated - - -

Her reasons for hating the Horde are justified

The problem is even after Theramore is nuked she keeps switching between being reasonable and wanting to kill everyone

She hasn't pushed for killing anyone....not once.

[IzoGray]

Jaina

She's always been a supporter of peace and believed that the orcs were misunderstood, but as Varian argued in Wrath, where has that led? Time after time the orcs have turned on the Alliance and started renewed aggression. They attacked the Alliance from behind on the Broken Front when there was no conflict between Horde and Alliance. They've attacked Sentinels in Ashenvale despite the peace treaties over the years, they supported Garrosh, wiped out Northwatch Hold, and obliterated Theramore off the face of the map. Peace with the orcs has been failure after failure, yet she still hoped that Horde and Alliance could work together in peace. Then she found that her way of thinking was once again being used to steal a weapon of great power to use against the Alliance right under her nose.

Her characterization can be summed up as "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me half a dozen times and I've been a blind idiot."

I agree they went a little overboard with heavy mascarra and "I sound a little evil" voice acting, but she's actually gone down a reasonable path. Her suggestion is to force the Horde to disband, not slaughter them all or imprison them forever. Her suggestion is essentially what makes the most sense and from an Earth history perspective is what you do with a conquered nation pretty often.

Garrosh
If you think Garrosh went from "honor" to "War!" in a single patch, you really weren't paying attention. He's been a slow build and the signs and writing was on the wall now and then the whole time.

His actions in the Ulduar trailer and at the Argent Tournament were clear indicators that he wasn't entirely getting on board Thrall's philosophy train.

No. The signs that Garrosh was showing were actually leading somewhere decent. Then he pretty much flipped around and started saying racist shit out of nowhere.


Jaina also called Thrall untrustworthy and believed he was scheming to kill them after Garrosh's defeat. it doesnt' make sense how she's so ready to believe it.

- - - Updated - - -

Isn't the "serve or be crushed beneath it" a throw back to the original Horde?

- - - Updated - - -



She hasn't pushed for killing anyone....not once.

lol! She tried wiping out all of Orgrimmar with a tidal wave. Pretty sure she pushed for killing thousands.

[Faroth]

No. The signs that Garrosh was showing were actually leading somewhere decent. Then he pretty much flipped around and started saying racist shit out of nowhere.

Jaina also called Thrall untrustworthy and believed he was scheming to kill them after Garrosh's defeat. it doesnt' make sense how she's so ready to believe it.

- - - Updated - - -

lol! She tried wiping out all of Orgrimmar with a tidal wave. Pretty sure she pushed for killing thousands.

Alright, you have a point that in one instance of rage that was also noted to be potentially further affected by the after effect of the mana bomb, she was about to pull the trigger. But once she backed down from that and isn't lashing out on emotion, she hasn't been flip flopping from "peace" to "kill everyone."

How about Thrall? He brought Durnholde down, whoever else was inside be damned, so he could kill one guy.
What about Malfurion? He let his rage devastate friend and foe alike on the battlefield.

One event isn't constantly flip flopping.

As for Garrosh, he claimed Thrall was not a "true warchief" and clearly showed hatred for the humans in those two instances.
To say there was nothing to indicate he was going down a bad path until last minute is pretty blind.

He didn't just suddenly turn into a bad guy. He killed Alliance sailors for no reason, against the advice of his own crew. His first reaction to not getting what he wants is to slaughter everything in his way and take it, as was the case with lumber in Ashenvale. He seemed pretty clearly on the edge of unhinged early on if you ask me.

There were players in Cataclysm who called it that Garrosh was going to lead the Horde to ruin, but they were dismissed and ignored because "Garrosh is destroying the Alliance, he's awesome! We need someone that will crush them in war!"

[Stormdash]

Isn't the "serve or be crushed beneath it" a throw back to the original Horde?

- - - Updated - - -



She hasn't pushed for killing anyone....not once.

Probably need to at least read a spoiler summary of "Tides of War" before stuff like this. Jaina not only advocated, she attempted.

As for Garrosh, I don't think he was ever the "Honor!" guy. I think he wore that around like an ill-fitting suit that Thrall and Eitrigg and Saurfang and Cairne/Baine, etc, expected him to dress up in. Once he felt comfortable in his own skin as Warchief, he became the same blind, arrogant jackhole he was in Nagrand and Borean Tundra.

[hrugner]

Sorry if you think this thread is dumb but I think it's even dumber how, with these 2 characters for example, the characterization has fallen flat on it's face.


Jaina was a person who knew that bad people existed and didn't blanket the entire Horde as a faction worthy of death. Now, because of ONE orc who she's well aware of, she wants the entire faction disbanded and believes everyone there is distrustful. It's stupid. Doesn't make sense.


Garrosh went from being a brat to a warrior who learned about honor. Then, literally after 1 patch with no back story, he's a villain. He went from "HONOR!" to "WAR!" in 1 stupid patch.

Someone please explain to me why Blizzard thinks it's ok to poorly characterize their important figures just because they need a story to be where it needs to be. It obviously doesn't make the story any better.

Yeah, I think the problem comes from their inability to handle subtlety. They can't write anything in the middle, so things just skip that part.

[Faroth]

Probably need to at least read a spoiler summary of "Tides of War" before stuff like this. Jaina not only advocated, she attempted.

As for Garrosh, I don't think he was ever the "Honor!" guy. I think he wore that around like an ill-fitting suit that Thrall and Eitrigg and Saurfang and Cairne/Baine, etc, expected him to dress up in. Once he felt comfortable in his own skin as Warchief, he became the same blind, arrogant jackhole he was in Nagrand and Borean Tundra.

I read Tides of War, I did forget about her near tidal wave in an act of emotional rage; I was referring more to events in MoP. But as stated above, if that's all it takes, Thrall and Malfurion go on the chopping block too.

[Mad_Murdock]

Probably need to at least read a spoiler summary of "Tides of War" before stuff like this. Jaina not only advocated, she attempted.

But I think we can all understand having a moment of insanity given what had just happen. I think the important part is, she went nuts, but was still sane enough to be talked down. Do we have any indication that Garrosh would have not followed through?

I think it makes total sense that Jaina is still rattled and not very trusting. We'll probably see her question and nag Varian a while about his decision.

Garrosh, I was hoping he'd become more mature and leveled headed, instead he just continued on the path that I thought was pretty obvious for a while. Just too much HORDE RAH RAH RAWH!!!! for a guy who valued anything other than war.

[IzoGray]

Christie's new book about Garrosh's trial might be disappointing. It sounds like a good read but from what we heard, we won't have an insight into Garrosh's mind, which is the disappointing part.


I suspect that there's a reason we won't be in Garrosh's mind though.

[Doombringer]

Clearly, Blizzard intended another path for Garrosh, but they fumbled his character development. Looking at Cataclysm, you see the effort they put into trying to improve Garrosh's image... the Stonetalon and Ashenvale/Demons quests push him in a somewhat respectable direction. That's all undone with the drooling madness he's demonstrated in Pandaria.