Thread: Why bash Cata?

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  1. #81
    I liked Cata and Dragon Soul. I'd actually rank DS above ToES and MSV.
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  2. #82
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    So, basically, cata was LOST(series) for many players?
    (*Hasn't seen LOST*) More like Dexter, with the finale episode being the Dragon Soul raid/LFR launching.

    OT List of why Cata sucked ass:

    - Dragon Soul/Overall raiding experience past T11
    -- Rushed out 4 months after Firelands release, leaving very little time for any 10N guild to get their Caster legendary (Fun fact: A friend of mine started the thread that got them to fix the bullshit behind Normal drops)
    -- Was globally nerfed SO quickly and Ragnaros had to be nerfed multiple times. PS: These nerfs were HUGE, so yeah, so much for 'testing'.
    -- There were fights in Cata that required Burst DPS due to mechanics, and therefore favored class stacking. From what I can remember: Spine of Deathwing (Burning Tendons; worst offender) and Ragnaros (Transition phases/Adds in P2), but I'm sure I'm missing plenty of others.

    - LFR launching and (continuing) to be a toxic experience for most players.
    -- Loot wasn't individual and a premade group of 24 could all roll need on the piece you wanted and give it to their friends. This is what started Need Before Greed being used in LFD to avoid the same problem (sadly, it doesn't work)

    - Extremely little content outside of raiding through the patches, with ZA/ZG revamps, 3 NEW dungeons, and one daily hub in Firelands (but it was a decent hub, unlike the MoP ones; there were quite a few achievements and Hunter pets to collect)

    - PvP balancing was among the worst its been. Base Resilience was 0.

    - Worst iteration of the classic talent trees we grew up with, with them forcing you into the entire main spec tree until you hit the bottom, then allowing you to spec into another tree, but only a few points. Imagine a butchered version of today's Specialization mixed with a bad version of the old talent trees.

    - Archaeology. Remember how epic it was going to be and how shit it turned out to be?

    Plenty of other reasons, but I'll leave this here for now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I liked Cata and Dragon Soul. I'd actually rank DS above ToES and MSV.
    I mean, y'know, if you enjoyed THE most broken raid in the game, by all means.

    DS has more (bad/gamebreaking) bugs than any other raid and they didn't even fix them. Zon'ozz's ball bouncing, Thrall refusing to jump you across platforms on Madness of Deathwing, Morchok's crystal being finicky, and let's not forget a cutscene in the middle of the Spine fight, I mean who the fuck puts a cutscene in at the start of a fight?

    While I agree enjoying things is definitely subjective, it's well known that Dragon Soul was THE worst raid of all time, and that's not just me.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravlon View Post
    I'd also like to point a few things out:
    1. During WotLK many people complained that "heroics" were way too easy and could be facerolled with no effort.
    Cataclysm made heroics challenging (unless you count farming them in end-game gear). For example, Grim Batol and Ozruk (was that his name? He would scream "break yourselves upon my bodyy!" a lot) were a real nightmare for most pick up groups. Even ZG and ZA were something you couldn't get through without knowing exactly what to do. And I recall a lot of CC skills being in use.
    I don't know why people keep bringing that up. Heroics in WoTLK were challenging at start, just like heroics in Cataclysm. People complained about it at the end of expansion. Well... duh... end of expansion, where ilevel 232 catch up gear dropped in heroics and was available for badges, so everyone had at least 232 gear and they complained about instances that dropped ilevel 200 gear.

    ICC patch also introduced LFD and new hard heroics. Do you remember how hated were hard new heroics in ICC patch? Tanks instantly quit as soon as they zoned in last dungeon of ICC dungeons set (don't remember its name - the one with waves of mobs). It was obvious from those heroics that LFD and hard content don't go well together. Yet Blizzard ignored it and introduced hard heroics at start of Cataclysm and then in Zul'Rehash patch.

    Problem was not hard heroics. Problem was LFD. You can't expect any coordination when putting random players together in one group.
    The reason Stormwind park was completely destroyed was because the night elves there had the audacity to tell Khadgar that Boomkins are superior to Mages in every way. Deathwing just happened to be flying by.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    In all threads about new expansion I see lots of pll bashing Cata. Many pll say it was worst expansion ever. I did play since May 2005 and I strongly believe it's second BEST expansion after BC. Why? Everything about Cata was PERFECT. I'll explain now why.


    Now to people who say, flying mounts=no pvp. I had tons, TONS of fun world pvp in Vashj'ir and TB. In fact I killed so many people in world pvp during Cata I didn't kill since vanilla.
    LOL! You just completely contradicted what you said. Vashj'ir and TB were the two places you COULDN'T fly in. That's why there was a lot of World PvP. Not to mention TB was completely used for a PvP event anyway. I'm so glad there won't be flying until 100. People didn't complain about no flying until 90 in MoP, but I think that was mainly because it wasn't put out there like they did with WoD. They let the no flying in MoP kind of just....happen.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    I don't know why people keep bringing that up. Heroics in WoTLK were challenging at start, just like heroics in Cataclysm. People complained about it at the end of expansion. Well... duh... end of expansion, where ilevel 232 catch up gear dropped in heroics and was available for badges, so everyone had at least 232 gear and they complained about instances that dropped ilevel 200 gear.

    ICC patch also introduced LFD and new hard heroics. Do you remember how hated were hard new heroics in ICC patch? Tanks instantly quit as soon as they zoned in last dungeon of ICC dungeons set (don't remember its name - the one with waves of mobs). It was obvious from those heroics that LFD and hard content don't go well together. Yet Blizzard ignored it and introduced hard heroics at start of Cataclysm and then in Zul'Rehash patch.

    Problem was not hard heroics. Problem was LFD. You can't expect any coordination when putting random players together in one group.
    No. From the start Wrath heroics were generally AoE. Yes you needed to have dps tanks and healers actually present but beyond that there was nothing.

    The ICC heroics were only marginally challenging. We NEED hard content because not all casual players want to faceroll stuff. However, LFD will continue to be a problem, since those who refuse to talk to others will feel restricted. That is the root of the issue. There are casuals who want hard content, and there are baduals who want easy stuff, and both go by the name casual.

  6. #86
    Oh this is gonna be fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    In all threads about new expansion I see lots of pll bashing Cata. Many pll say it was worst expansion ever. I did play since May 2005 and I strongly believe it's second BEST expansion after BC. Why? Everything about Cata was PERFECT. I'll explain now why.

    1. Leveling, core of the start = amazing fun because you COULD fly. Wanna not start level in one zone? Choose another. Leveing in Hijal is amazing, I still have a lot of fun lvling there on my alts. Uldum, nice storyline and fun quests. And that quest when you kill 1000 gnomes... PRICELESS . Not only that. They revamped old zones so nicely that it became fun to lvl new toons :P. And they added so many "EPIC FUN" quests. Like Sylvana's one. Or the one in badlands. Without Cata we would still grind old boring quests. Now to people who say, flying mounts=no pvp. I had tons, TONS of fun world pvp in Vashj'ir and TB. In fact I killed so many people in world pvp during Cata I didn't kill since vanilla.
    Flying destroyed questing and the zones. Kill monsters, fly away. Fly over to deliver item, fly away. See path filled with monsters, fly over, complete quest, fly away.

    There were only 2 starting zones, compared to Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, where you could choose various places to level and reach cap.

    Uh... TB is a PvP zone........basically a bg on a 2 hr cd.........not really WPvP.

    I will however agree that when you actually sat down to do the quests, IE Harrison Jones they were quite fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    2. Dailies. Never, never felt like something you HAD to do. And esp those in Hijal were amazingly fun, there were even dailies which were easier to do as healer.
    Yeah except for that whole DAILY QUEST HUB FOR FIRELANDS WHERE YOU WERE LITERALLY FORCED TO DO SHIT. Oh and let's not forget tabards........THE FORCED WAY TO REP GRIND FOR EVERY FACTION. Instead of yanno, going out into the world and questing, pvping, interacting, etc. Sit in the city, spam the RDF, get rep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    3. Lore. Involving Thrall, one of the main lore characters. Even though I didn't enjoy much doing "Thrall specific quest" on many alts, doing it first time was very inspiring.
    Yeah, except for the fact that the lore didn't make jack shit with what was given to us in game. And don't pull "Oh it's in the books" bullshit. The books are built to be supplementary, not mandatory. You had extremely disjointed zones with little to no interconnecting plots, themes, or characters. One moment we're fighting a Two-Headed Ogre; the next a resurrected Neferian and Onyxia.....da fuck? The Ogre I remotely get, there was a bit of intro to him (though I doubt most of us still don't understand wtf the twilight's hammer clan is), but where.....how...THEIR HEADS WERE ON PIKES AND CHAINS....WHO REZZED THEM?!


    Next we're fighting a Firelord..................our main enemy is a giant flying dragon who can breath fire and whose blood is molten lava/corrupted...........why the hell does he need Ragnaros?


    Deathwing as a villian was pathetic. He barely appeared throughout the game. Most people forgot about him by the time DS came around. Virtually nothing anyone did in this game made sense, even worse was the time travel bit to get Thrall's kamehameha. And then the Aspects give up their powers..................their purpose was to stop one of their own......that the titans gave power to. Well here's an idea, travel back in time, axe Neltharion before he becomes Deathwing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    4. Raiding. Actually Cata was first time when I started raiding very seriously. Because content was worth it. Remember emotions when you had to jump to lava on Nefarian hc.
    Yeah except for that whole shared 10/25 man lock-outs which ended up killing most of the 25 man raiding guilds and locked out many players from ever stepping into a raid. Followed by the complete reversal and the introduction of LFR......the combination of the worst complaints of this game all combined into a "raiding" experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    5. EPICNESS. Yes. It came to unreal level in Cata. Do I need to explain why?
    Yeah it was so epic, that it was hilarious. It was like a movie that ran too long, never took a breather to acknowledge anything, and spent so much time ziping around the "plot" that by the end we had no resolution, trying to figure out what had actually happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    6. Dungeons. DUNGEONS WERE FUN. You needed some afford to complete stuff and when you finally completed them, you felt so good.
    ......Except if you got paired with a warrior and dk as dps in your group you were totally screwed on CC. If one person screwed up, everyone died. There was no learning curve for new or more casual players and there was very little for them to do. Bosses barely telegraphed attacks or actions, making anyone who was inexperienced a quick vote to kick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    My point is, I see no reason why people hate that expansion.
    My point is, we have every reason to hate this expansion. It took everything we had solidified and learned over the past six years and threw it out the window.
    Last edited by militaryspartan; 2013-11-19 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    So, basically, cata was LOST(series) for many players?
    Implying LOST was good at some point ...

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I mean, y'know, if you enjoyed THE most broken raid in the game, by all means.

    DS has more (bad/gamebreaking) bugs than any other raid and they didn't even fix them. Zon'ozz's ball bouncing, Thrall refusing to jump you across platforms on Madness of Deathwing, Morchok's crystal being finicky, and let's not forget a cutscene in the middle of the Spine fight, I mean who the fuck puts a cutscene in at the start of a fight?

    While I agree enjoying things is definitely subjective, it's well known that Dragon Soul was THE worst raid of all time, and that's not just me.
    I think the only thing I didn't like about DS was the Ultraxion trash to be honest. It wasn't my favorite raid by any means, but it's better than at least two of the MoP raids imo. I think BWD, BoT and Firelands were epic raids. MoP's MSV and ToES were terrible, HoF was okay and I loved ToT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  9. #89
    And here I thought TOC was the worst raid in the game. I enjoyed cata up till ds raided it first three weeks and called it quits Cuz by that point most of all of my friends had moved on to other games or IRL so I did the same. Came back for mop but being on a new server and not playing with my crew its not the same :'(

  10. #90
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    I liked cataclysm. We still had our guns and polearms (I'm a hunter). I liked being able to grind valor and rep in dungeons. You could do all your 5 mans in one night if you wanted to. Justice points were actually worth something which made it even more fun for me to grind 5 mans. I really do enjoy doing five mans. I ran them on normal and heroic mode with all my alts every week. We got to fly from day 1. The raids were not too big, or too small, I liked firelands a lot. (not the daily quests that came with it) DS wasn't great, but I had fun doing it. I think all cataclysm's raids were fun. The economy was also very kind to me in Cataclysm. I really enjoyed that expansion, even if it wasn't as fun as Wrath, or B.C.

    I guess that's why I disliked mop so much, they took everything I really liked about the previous expansions away. I did do ok earning gold in mop, but its not like cata was, for me.
    Last edited by SL1200; 2013-11-19 at 12:55 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by noobstar View Post
    And here I thought TOC was the worst raid in the game. I enjoyed cata up till ds raided it first three weeks and called it quits Cuz by that point most of all of my friends had moved on to other games or IRL so I did the same. Came back for mop but being on a new server and not playing with my crew its not the same :'(
    Why did your friends quit?

  12. #92
    Because every raid boss was easy...well mop is not much different.

  13. #93
    Epic! Zelk's Avatar
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    Running ZG and ZA for a year to cap valour, Dragon Soul and warlocks being completely broken; I mean come on, shadowflame as part of the rotation?

  14. #94
    The Patient Umbrokill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    1. Leveling, core of the start = amazing fun because you COULD fly. Wanna not start level in one zone? Choose another. Leveing in Hijal is amazing, I still have a lot of fun lvling there on my alts. Uldum, nice storyline and fun quests. And that quest when you kill 1000 gnomes... PRICELESS . Not only that. They revamped old zones so nicely that it became fun to lvl new toons :P. And they added so many "EPIC FUN" quests. Like Sylvana's one. Or the one in badlands. Without Cata we would still grind old boring quests.
    The levling was fun the first time, the second and third it was boring as hell. It lacked replayability. And they made the same mistake when revamping the old zones aswell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    2. Dailies. Never, never felt like something you HAD to do. And esp those in Hijal were amazingly fun, there were even dailies which were easier to do as healer.
    Dailies were never a problem before MoP, saying that good dailies make a good expansion clearly shows you are focusing on the wrong aspects of what endgame is about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    3. Lore. Involving Thrall, one of the main lore characters. Even though I didn't enjoy much doing "Thrall specific quest" on many alts, doing it first time was very inspiring.
    Thrall is the most overused and boring character there is, the way they focused on this one person to tell the tale of the cataclyms was poor in my opinion, and this might just be because as an Alliance player Thrall is nothing special. They also had the whole dragonaspect storyline that was a complete waste, and timetravel is almost never a good plotpoint to pull out at the end of an expansion to wrap it up.
    Can't comment on raiding, because I didn't do much of that in Cata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    5. EPICNESS. Yes. It came to unreal level in Cata. Do I need to explain why?
    "Epicness"? really? The only thing epic with this expansion was the intro cinematic. Having Deathwing fly over you and kill the entire zone, not epic. Having rag return, not epic, and then to top the whole thing off, the Dragon Soul raid was underwhelming as shit. Just because there may be big explosions or massive destruction does not make something epic. LK, he was epic. Illidan was epic. Deathwing was not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    6. Dungeons. DUNGEONS WERE FUN. You needed some afford to complete stuff and when you finally completed them, you felt so good.
    Running the same troll dungeons over and over again is really fun, yeah... And to the other dungeons that came before, sure you needed some more "afford" to complete them, but this made them less fun to have to grind for gear on alts and such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malderon View Post
    My point is, I see no reason why people hate that expansion.
    There are loads of reasons, you just seem to ignore them. And these are my opinions, not facts. Just like your reasons are your opinions, not facts.

  15. #95
    A general consensus why cata gets bashed so often its because its the first expac to piss off almost every part of the playerbase. 25 man raiders would definitely remember the changes to raid lockouts and loot and people who used to spec hybrid didn't liked the new 'talent trees'. High end raiders would not have liked the ZA/ZG patch and as for myself as a casual, I hated the revamped 1-60

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    No. From the start Wrath heroics were generally AoE. Yes you needed to have dps tanks and healers actually present but beyond that there was nothing.
    Can't AOE in Old Kingdom or AK. Attempting to do that in several of the dungeons with everyone in quest greens/blues would get the group wiped. Only at least half the group was in top end Tier 7 gear would this be possible without the tank or healer breaking a sweat

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The ICC heroics were only marginally challenging.
    Yes, if you are super overgeared. However most people skipped HoR because it required some degree of skill and PoS as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    We NEED hard content because not all casual players want to faceroll stuff. However, LFD will continue to be a problem, since those who refuse to talk to others will feel restricted. That is the root of the issue. There are casuals who want hard content, and there are baduals who want easy stuff, and both go by the name casual.
    What we need is progressive heroics which was present in TBC and slightly less of the style in WoLTK. We shouldn't do another cata (too hard too fast) or MOP (5-man normal heroic is basically moot) style

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    What we need is progressive heroics which was present in TBC and slightly less of the style in WoLTK. We shouldn't do another cata (too hard too fast) or MOP (5-man normal heroic is basically moot) style
    We should just make heroics unqueueable. Simple as that. Players dont deal with random groups then Blizzard can actually tell them it is their fault they are not getting further, not Blizzards.

    But the tears from the casual playerbase who want content to be easy would be too great.

  17. #97
    Cata was my fav expansion. I can understand the hate but I loved it

  18. #98
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    The endgame was really awful because they dedicated too much of their resources to revamping the 1-60 world. Also it ruined ZG and ZA.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by championknight View Post
    Yes, if you are super overgeared. However most people skipped HoR because it required some degree of skill and PoS as well
    Line of Sight for Halls of Reflection, a very simple kill order, and being able to DPS. Pit of Saron was made extremely trivial by the most common route taken, and I only saw people wipe in the hallway. Both dungeons had simple mechanics, mostly get out of the way or stand behind something. That's not very skillful, and a lot of it was quite easy to do even if you were just geared enough to queue for it. But I suppose it was "Hard" for the people too used to AoE'ing everything down in non-ICC dungeons. Even Forge of Souls was AoE spam.

    But that's just me and how I viewed everyone from playing in Wrath of the Lich King. Digressing from the topic at hand though.

    I don't know exactly why people hated Cataclysm. I know partially it was due to people not wanting to do many things in the gearing process, especially when most of the expansion punished people for not knowing the fights (As it should). Than LFR came along and so did the return to extremely easy queuing, the separation of the troll dungeons, nerfing of the original Cataclysm ones... Etc.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrokill View Post
    There are loads of reasons, you just seem to ignore them. And these are my opinions, not facts. Just like your reasons are your opinions, not facts.
    The reasons that have been repeated is people complaining about the story, which was somewhat hard to follow, but good once you understood. The dungeons, which are just people complaining they couldnt faceroll stuff anymore and that it would take work and *gasp* communication.
    The complaints about the 10/25M are legitamate, and from 25s it make sense, but 10M players were just upset it was hard. I understand the 25M complaint that there was no more incentive to run 25 over 10, but 10M were just sad they had hard stuff.
    The complaint about DS is fair, firelands as well, however its not like Wrath, hailed as such a great expansion, had all good raids. 3/5 of Catas raids were decent. 1 of Wrath's was good, Ulduar, and ICC was okay.

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