Paladin vs Warrior "playstyle"

[Nobleshield]

Till 2.1 when warriors get 2 defensive CDs and their active mitigation gets nerfed in exchange :P

Yes. I don't know much of the changes as I'm only like level 16 on my GLD, but it seems enough to maybe try out Marauder/Warrior instead to see if it's more interesting, as I really don't like how hard it seems (at level 15ish) to establish aggro as a GLD.

[Lyese]

I think they went overboard on the buffs. They'll have much higher uptime on their DR cds and bring better dps, on top of having more hp and getting bigger incoming heals. SE buffs/nerfs with a sledgehammer.

[RohanV]

Yes. I don't know much of the changes as I'm only like level 16 on my GLD, but it seems enough to maybe try out Marauder/Warrior instead to see if it's more interesting, as I really don't like how hard it seems (at level 15ish) to establish aggro as a GLD.

The secret to paladin/gladiator threat is marking. Bring up the raid marks tab and get used to marking the mobs quickly. Shield Lob #1. Then start Flash - Fast Blade - Savage Blade, repeat.

Flash every cycle is enough to keep the mobs off the healer. The Blade Combo will keep DPS from pulling aggro. So long as the DPS obey the marks, holding aggro is fairly easy. If DPS split targets, life sucks.

[Deleted]

Oh, believe me. Getting to Level 26 and learning Rage of Halone makes a world of difference.

And am I silly, or what? I personally consider "short" duration cooldowns like Rampart and Convalescence active mitigation myself. Thus I wouldn't say that Warriors are losing any active mitigation per se. It's just that it's being switched over from self-healing to mitigation, much like a Paladin with an axe.

I will admit that Warrior mitigation will still be more unforgiving, though. Only 6 seconds to nullify an incoming burst/spike requires quite strict timing compared to the 20 seconds of Rampart and such. On the flipside, Warriors will have far better spike damage mitigation, while Paladins will remain the kings of consistent and smooth damage intake.

[zito]

much like a Paladin with an axe.

That's the bad part about this update, I feel like classes are slowly going to end up too much like each other. Heck even scholar and white mage are pretty similar in terms of healing styles, its just mechanic wise scholar healing has shields attached to it and white mage has HoTs but they pretty much play the game.

[Omgarsh]

I think they went overboard on the buffs. They'll have much higher uptime on their DR cds and bring better dps, on top of having more hp and getting bigger incoming heals. SE buffs/nerfs with a sledgehammer.

I couldn't disagree more.

First of all, the IB change puts it on the level of having Rampart, except over the course of the Rampart duration/CD it still has higher uptime. Second, Vengeance is the only really comparable survival/mitigation CD now and that's basically you trading all the improved/traited GLA CDs for a basic Sentinel with a lower CD. Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground is no conest; Hallowed Ground is way superior if only because it prevents incoming damage while up and Holmgang merely lets you stay alive at 1 HP no matter what. It has a lower cooldown but it just becomes a short window of "you can't kill me" to the mobs without really changing the need for constant heals from healers.

Don't be fooled by the bigger HP number on a WAR, because right now WAR is way behind PLD for effective health. In 2.1 they should be more even, but PLD is still going to take less spike damage than WAR. It's just a case of WAR no longer getting demolished in a few hits from spike damage and requiring panic button heals to keep them alive.

[Lyese]

Don't be fooled by the bigger HP number on a WAR, because right now WAR is way behind PLD for effective health. In 2.1 they should be more even, but PLD is still going to take less spike damage than WAR. It's just a case of WAR no longer getting demolished in a few hits from spike damage and requiring panic button heals to keep them alive.

I'm aware of how EHP works, and on top of the higher HP pool, you have the static +15% inc heals baked into Defiance, which stretches out TTL even longer. Holmgang is pretty much the same cheese as Hallowed Ground, but on a much shorter cd. You can even do Holmgang/Hallowed Ground chaining between the two tanks like HG chaining (or double Holmgang chaining for almost half the cd) and still come out fine. Not to mention Storm's Path will be reducing mob dmg output, and generally shorter cds all around will put WARs on top for people who min/max their group comps.

[Sorrior]

I'm aware of how EHP works, and on top of the higher HP pool, you have the static +15% inc heals baked into Defiance, which stretches out TTL even longer. Holmgang is pretty much the same cheese as Hallowed Ground, but on a much shorter cd. You can even do Holmgang/Hallowed Ground chaining between the two tanks like HG chaining (or double Holmgang chaining for almost half the cd) and still come out fine. Not to mention Storm's Path will be reducing mob dmg output, and generally shorter cds all around will put WARs on top for people who min/max their group comps.

No Holmgang will make it so we can't go below 1 hp...We still take damage unlike hollowed ground.

And our damage reduction skills also don't last as long...We are still a high risk high reward class while paladins are still smoother overall.

I think you REALLY overestimate our buffs.

[Ravex]

No Holmgang will make it so we can't go below 1 hp...We still take damage unlike hollowed ground.

And our damage reduction skills also don't last as long...We are still a high risk high reward class while paladins are still smoother overall.

I think you REALLY overestimate our buffs.

Well.. you would only use either when you are at risk of dieing... SO essentially same thing, plus you will be getting bomb healed at these time so the damage still taken is irrelevant.

[jearle]

The changes arent final either, they will probably adjust cooldowns and numbers as well.

Even as are these changes wont eclipse PLD tanks as they will still be better overall, now WARs are competitive.

[Sorrior]

Well.. you would only use either when you are at risk of dieing... SO essentially same thing, plus you will be getting bomb healed at these time so the damage still taken is irrelevant.

Kinda what I meant when I said high risk high reward...We'll have to time better then paladins for alot of these skills and rotate between combos more..

Overall I'd say we're becoming even higher skill but with much higher reward.

[Lyese]

The only time healing would count for Holmgang would be about 2 seconds left on the duration. Less if your SCH preps Lustrates. It's "almost" as powerful as HG but on a much shorter cd. You could get 2 Holmgangs to 1 HG in turn 4, which if your dps isn't cutting waves 3 or 6, might make the difference.

[Omgarsh]

Well.. you would only use either when you are at risk of dieing... SO essentially same thing, plus you will be getting bomb healed at these time so the damage still taken is irrelevant.

WAR uses Holmgang -> Still requires constant healing for the duration, but doesn't die while it's active
PLD uses Hallowed Ground -> Can be healed to full and ignored for other raid healing until the buff runs out

People are forgetting that Holmgang only lasts 6 seconds and Hallowed Ground lasts 8 or more. That's already part of the balance between cooldown timers. Also, Holmgang roots you and your target, so while you will use it in similar situations to Hallowed Ground, you're going to have to be sure whatever you need to keep on you for the duration doesn't run off. I'm totally thrilled to have such a useless skill changed into an equivalent emergency button for WAR, but it's still got plenty of differences that should keep it and Hallowed Ground pretty much balanced.

Defiance is actually getting buffed slightly more, with the healing bonus going to 20% (which is still actually less than equal to Shield Oath's 20% damage reduction). The main thing is that WARs will actually be competitive with PLDs, so the best thing for your raid is to have a mix of the two tanking. Especially if they're smart on the debuffs and let Storm's Path and Rage of Halone stack, but not 2x Halone or 2x Storm's Path. WAR already has the tools for OTing pretty effectively, but in 2.1 it's going to have real mitigation/survival cooldowns and general sturdiness so it can handle MTing. I really can't be upset at all about that and I don't know why anyone else would be. It won't be taking jobs away from PLDs unless they were shitty PLDs to begin with, and if there IS a delta between PLD and WAR tank effectiveness, it will be less than the current enormous gap.

edit: to be honest, 2.1 changes are making me see a lot of good synergy between WAR tank/WHM healer and PLD tank/SCH healer, especially comparing just these two big emergency cooldowns. Holmgang is a perfect time to use Benediction, while SCH absorbs can be set up during Hallowed Ground and won't be almost instantly chewed up. Plus there's that whole Thrill of Battle/Stoneskin synergy that goes on.

[Sorrior]

WAR uses Holmgang -> Still requires constant healing for the duration, but doesn't die while it's active
PLD uses Hallowed Ground -> Can be healed to full and ignored for other raid healing until the buff runs out

People are forgetting that Holmgang only lasts 6 seconds and Hallowed Ground lasts 8 or more. That's already part of the balance between cooldown timers. Also, Holmgang roots you and your target, so while you will use it in similar situations to Hallowed Ground, you're going to have to be sure whatever you need to keep on you for the duration doesn't run off. I'm totally thrilled to have such a useless skill changed into an equivalent emergency button for WAR, but it's still got plenty of differences that should keep it and Hallowed Ground pretty much balanced.

Defiance is actually getting buffed slightly more, with the healing bonus going to 20% (which is still actually less than equal to Shield Oath's 20% damage reduction). The main thing is that WARs will actually be competitive with PLDs, so the best thing for your raid is to have a mix of the two tanking. Especially if they're smart on the debuffs and let Storm's Path and Rage of Halone stack, but not 2x Halone or 2x Storm's Path. WAR already has the tools for OTing pretty effectively, but in 2.1 it's going to have real mitigation/survival cooldowns and general sturdiness so it can handle MTing. I really can't be upset at all about that and I don't know why anyone else would be. It won't be taking jobs away from PLDs unless they were shitty PLDs to begin with, and if there IS a delta between PLD and WAR tank effectiveness, it will be less than the current enormous gap.

edit: to be honest, 2.1 changes are making me see a lot of good synergy between WAR tank/WHM healer and PLD tank/SCH healer, especially comparing just these two big emergency cooldowns. Holmgang is a perfect time to use Benediction, while SCH absorbs can be set up during Hallowed Ground and won't be almost instantly chewed up. Plus there's that whole Thrill of Battle/Stoneskin synergy that goes on.

I'd heard they might remove the who,e "stay in place" part of Holmgang..Gonna miss it if so...But it will now pull our target toward us.

[Lyese]

WAR uses Holmgang -> Still requires constant healing for the duration, but doesn't die while it's active
PLD uses Hallowed Ground -> Can be healed to full and ignored for other raid healing until the buff runs out

Won't need healing until the last 2 seconds, at which point you begin prepping Cure II, or 1s for Lustrate. Hell, you can even swiftcast Cure II if you're feeling feisty. Not like I use it on much else. 2 seconds of buff uptime <<< 2.5m less cd. I'll take the cd for more cheesing.