Do Americans really get best healthcare?

[satimy]

Your argument would make far more sense if it not were for Western countries with socialized medicine (absolutely zero competition in regards to health care) who are providing quality services for a far lower cost. The issue is not marketplace competition.

I know you're trying to argue from your Econ 101 textbook, but you need to think a little more deeply about what you're saying, and maybe not end your argument with a liberals vs. conservatives flamebait remark.

I didnt say market competition was the only thing, I said it was one of several. And medical care isn't socialized anywhere that I know of, only the insurance markets are.

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said as if everyone wants a doctor to be like an auto mechanic. Competition has certainly weeded out unscrupulous auto mechanics.

Thats actually a pretty good example, if you shop around you can usually find a cheaper price with mechanics. My brother got quoted at 4k to get his vehicle inspected, took it 3 miles to midas and got quoted at 1500.

[Gozzu]

No, they really dont. They have the best specialists in some areas, others have in other areas, but in no way are the US healthcare overall better.

[Underverse]

I don't think our healthcare is anything special. But then, I've only gotten medical aid in the US. Waiting in the emergency room with my arm in the shape of an S (double break) wasn't much fun...

[Pancaspe]

America has the worst healthcare among the advanced countries of the world.

Thank God our President is trying to change that.

[Gozzu]

I didnt say market competition was the only thing, I said it was one of several. And medical care isn't socialized anywhere that I know of, only the insurance markets are.

There's actually quite a lot of countries with socialized medical care. All the Nordic countries for example.

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I don't think our healthcare is anything special. But then, I've only gotten medical aid in the US. Waiting in the emergency room with my arm in the shape of an S (double break) wasn't much fun...

That's actually pretty standard. One of the few problems with socialized healthcare is that the queues to get an operation may get pretty long. Have a friend who had to get his back fixed, and he was in line for a little over a year.

[Deleted]

Thats actually a pretty good example, if you shop around you can usually find a cheaper price with mechanics. My brother got quoted at 4k to get his vehicle inspected, took it 3 miles to midas and got quoted at 1500.

Yes and when I have health problems I really want to sit down and figure out where I can get the best service. No wait I don't, I just want to get better.
The analogy is ok, it's just not something I want to do when it concerns my health. I just want to get fixed and not have to pay an arm and a leg for it.

The idea of someone getting treated or not based on the amount of money he's got disgusts me tbh. Having to worry about bills while you or your loved ones are sick or injured should be the last thing on your list. Atm I have little to no health problems, but I'm glad to pay for national healthcare. Not just so I'll get some if I ever need it, but also because I think everyone has the right to decent medical care.

[satimy]

Yes and when I have health problems I really want to sit down and figure out where I can get the best service. No wait I don't, I just want to get better.
The analogy is ok, it's just not something I want to do when it concerns my health. I just want to get fixed and not have to pay an arm and a leg for it.

The idea of someone getting treated or not based on the amount of money he's got disgusts me tbh. Having to worry about bills while you or your loved ones are sick or injured should be the last thing on your list. Atm I have little to no health problems, but I'm glad to pay for national healthcare. Not just so I'll get some if I ever need it, but also because I think everyone has the right to decent medical care.

What you have said is actually one of the arguments as to why emergency healthcare should be universally covered, its comparable to a natural monopoly. I just think people who say socialize medicine refuse to accept that there are consequences of doing so.






Most western countries have socialized insurance, the doctors are still private and not government employees. The healthcare insurance market is nationalized, not the actual doctors. Unless you have some example to prove this wrong, this is my understanding.

[Deleted]

Most expensive doesn't mean best. I bet its a logistic nightmare like all public services.

[Itisamuh]

America has the worst healthcare among the advanced countries of the world.

Thank God our President is trying to change that.

Oh yeah, making an already crappy system far worse is really helping.

[Oktoberfest]

Depends on how you approach it really, on one hand America is great for specialist treatments; IF and only IF you can afford or have insurance for them.

In America if you run out of insurance or don't have the money, you're fucked - They'll let you die and bill the family, in the U.K you'll never, ever die due to petty things like money.

The U.K has a social healthcare system, and it's largely inundated and understaffed; despite that, it's still managing to do the job admirably - But not to the extent certain aspects of U.S healthcare does.

However, that's an uninformed idiots opinion; so take it with a pinch of salt.

I'd hands down choose the U.K over the U.S though, no offense.

What he said ^

[ruinshin]

I have personally experienced that they are willing to take 1/5 of what the bill is over having you file for bankrupcy.

That's partly because US healthcare is so damned overpriced.

Which, actually, is the big problem with the current healthcare reform system. It just makes the issue worse.

Hospitals and medical supplies will charge super high prices because insurance will pay for most of it. Which, really, makes it sound like insurance is actually the problem, when it's not. The cost of drugs, supplies, ect are the issue, because they are sold at a vastly inflated rate... Because insurance companies will cover it, and they have no choice in the matter. The profit margins insurance companies make is incredibly slim.

While I'm normally against restricting prices, some sort of control needs to be put onto supplies and medicine, because it's the root of the issue. Not insurance companies. Even people who don't have insurance would be in a much better place. Instead, supply houses charge what they want, and hospitals end up paying a huge mark up well beyond what something costs, and then they have to mark up the price for the patient, and then the patient, if he doesn't have insurance, can't pay.

Eventually, hospitals start to shut down, because they can't keep the doors open. It starts costing tax payers a fortune, and thus we get the current problem with not everyone having health care. But, the healthcare is a bit like putting a band-aid on a festering wound. It hides the problem temporarily, and in actuality makes it worse.

[Slant]

I woulld like to contribute, but I can't because I - as most people in Germany - don't know how much anything costs, since we never actually pay stuff. We just fllash our shiny insurance card and they take care of it. Heallthcare is so bloody awesome here.

[Daedelus]

Your argument would make far more sense if it not were for Western countries with socialized medicine (absolutely zero competition in regards to health care) who are providing quality services for a far lower cost. The issue is not marketplace competition.

Zero competition? Quite the opposite. The NHS hold all the cards - it can go round all the medical suppliers asking for quotes and those companies know they need to be competitive or they lose out to supplying the entire UK healthcare system if they're not. Who wants to lose out on an order like that?

[Bolson13]

Most western countries have socialized insurance, the doctors are still private and not government employees. The healthcare insurance market is nationalized, not the actual doctors. Unless you have some example to prove this wrong, this is my understanding.

Actually here in the Netherlands the healthcare insurance market is also private yet heavily regulated. This so we get the benefit of competition in pricing (and more options like "you can only go to these hospitals in non emergency" or the ability to buy different packages of what you are extra insured for).
But at the same time, the government keeps tabs on it to make sure there is no monopoly forming or they are making insurance policies that remove certain medicine that are too expensive but would have the patient die if they didn't have access to them.

We reformed the entire thing in 2006 because we saw the babyboom problem comming. If we wouldn't, by 2020 or something the average person would pay like 50% of their salary towards healthcare and it would still increase untill 2035 at least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthc...he_Netherlands

[Bumbasta]

No its surely doesn't. According to the WHO healthcare of the USA is ranked 37th, 2013. Stop seeing the USA as a developed country, because it isn't. Being a large and powerfull country doesn't make it developed.
Only the rich have acces to descent healthcare which makes it inferior to a lot of other countries. Not just developed western countries; the USA is also beat by Morocco, Chile and Oman.
You may have good possibilities, but it isn't accesable for the majority of the population. We're talking about averages when comparing countries.


Also, in the bushbush in Africa i've seen witch doctors asking tons of money for their "healthcare". High pricing doesn't make it good.

[Yvaelle]

Our care is pretty good, and our specialists are amongst the best. It's just overpriced as fuck

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111115111

Keep in mind that doesn't list all factors, but I do think it has the most important ones.

OECD only ranks off the highest available - the issue with the US healthcare that it doesn't take into account is that unlike Canada / Europe with singlepayer systems, the US healthcare system ranges from world-best to world-worst (for some issues you are better off in the developing world receiving aid from WHO / Doctors without Borders / Red Cross). I saw a paper once I can't seem to find now, that suggested if you average out the US healthcare service - so as to better compare against single payer systems in any other developed nation - the US comes in at something like 63rd.

Edit:

The Human Development Index doesn't do any better - it ranks based on spending rather than outcomes in regards to healthcare - which puts the US at #1: since the US spends the most per capita. If HDI were to rank healthcare based on outcomes to patients, it would drop the US's HDI scoring colossally as well.


Not really related to healthcare, but I recently came across another interesting example of this - Ease of Doing Business is an often used tool for determining how difficult foreign markets are to enter for international business. It ranks India quite poorly (like 130th I believe), and ranks China as one the best - but this is a misnomer - since it scores India very poorly on time to fill out applications (up to 1 month to start a business, for example) and illegal corruption. It weighs those two categories very heavily, so it thinks India kind of sucks - despite that it scores very high in pretty much every other metric.

By contrast, it ranks China as being super mega awesome for starting businesses - because it only takes like 5 days to do all the involved paperwork, and it thinks there is no corruption in China - when in reality, time to file paperwork isn't a big deal (between 5 days and a month), and corruption is everywhere - but it's formalized in China (and the US to some extent) - versus under-the-table as you see in India. So the tool isn't all that great for more than a passing look - because it shits on some countries and triumphs others based on the weights they assign - and how they measure things.

Tools like this are interesting at first glance, but the more you pick their methodology apart - the less reliable they really are.

[Wildtree]

I would have to say that, by far, Germany has the best healthcare. They have a very personalized medical system; doctors are very focused on looking at everyone as individuals, instead of patients; a great amount of focus is put on improving overall health and well being rather than doing the minimal required to treat a disease state. The US is definitely shifting in this direction, but in terms of patient-oriented care is still about 10 years behind Germany.

Thanks for such kind review....
Times and again I am reading about horrendous queue times and such.
In all my life I have never ever seen this happening. Are there queues? Of course there are... Queues for things like hearts, kidney's and the like. Things that have queues around the whole World, because of the nature of the body part.
Where else there are queues in Germany... on everything that is not essential to ones life itself. If you happen to have a minor condition or imperfection that requires surgical procedure, you might end on on a waiting list. Might, because you still have a choice. You can find a hospital that takes you in sooner, or even right away, or you have the luxury of being rather picky and choose the best possible hospital for that matter.
I have been there myself, in that situation. I have a condition that in no way affected my life or put it in any risk. Over the course of the first 22 years of my life I've spent almost the entire first 3 years in a hospital with a total of 4 surgeries, and thereafter underwent another 5 surgeries with the last one at the age of 22.
The total costs amount for the medical treatment reached the 2 digit millions. And yet, neither my parents were broke over it, nor I was broke over it.
The amount of money paid out of our own pockets was a whooping ZERO!
Maybe a few DM for prescription drugs after the hospital stays. But that was at that time still only 1DM per prescription, which contained up to 3 different drugs.

If you have any condition that affects your health immediately, like a cold, or worse things, your treatment is immediate.
Germany's Emergency rooms are also not crowded with minor cases, much like US Emergency rooms.
People in Germany go to ER's when there really is an emergency. Like out of date times... Weekends, night times, when the regular doctors offices are closed, and the people need some treatment. There's no overcrowding from people who go to the ER, because they have no coverage otherwise.

I believe, that there's no better way to compare systems in place than actually experiencing them first hand.
I have that experience with both systems, the US system since I live here now, and the German system, since I lived there most of my life.
And the direct comparison draws a very very negative picture of the US system. It's so bad, that for major problems, I only put a "bandaid" on, and wait until I got the time to go over to Germany and seek the help for it there. Why my decision for that?
Because of what the quoted lines reflect... Here in the US I feel like an object of income. I'm an object of a profit machine.. Much like a car is for a mechanic, a house for a painter, and so on.. I am just that to the doctors... And in Germany I am a human being, a person. And the doctor treats me as that, and not a a milk cow, he can squeeze some extra money out from. And if I don't have money, the interest of the US doc declines rapidly. The German doc doesn't have to worry about that. How much money I have has zero impact on how he treats me.

[Yvaelle]

Germany's Emergency rooms are also not crowded with minor cases, much like US Emergency rooms.

One of the biggest points of Obamacare was to fix the problem in US ER's - by putting all the poor people on insurance so they have actual doctors to go to, they will stop going to the ER for every little thing simply because the ER cannot turn sick people away regardless of coverage. Now that all the poor people have insurance, ER's should be way way better in the US - which is great news because they were terrifying the last time I drove past one in LA!

#thanksObama *smirk*

[Cthulhu 2020]

OECD only ranks off the highest available - the issue with the US healthcare that it doesn't take into account is that unlike Canada / Europe with singlepayer systems, the US healthcare system ranges from world-best to world-worst (for some issues you are better off in the developing world receiving aid from WHO / Doctors without Borders / Red Cross). I saw a paper once I can't seem to find now, that suggested if you average out the US healthcare service - so as to better compare against single payer systems in any other developed nation - the US comes in at something like 63rd.

Edit:

The Human Development Index doesn't do any better - it ranks based on spending rather than outcomes in regards to healthcare - which puts the US at #1: since the US spends the most per capita. If HDI were to rank healthcare based on outcomes to patients, it would drop the US's HDI scoring colossally as well.


Not really related to healthcare, but I recently came across another interesting example of this - Ease of Doing Business is an often used tool for determining how difficult foreign markets are to enter for international business. It ranks India quite poorly (like 130th I believe), and ranks China as one the best - but this is a misnomer - since it scores India very poorly on time to fill out applications (up to 1 month to start a business, for example) and illegal corruption. It weighs those two categories very heavily, so it thinks India kind of sucks - despite that it scores very high in pretty much every other metric.

By contrast, it ranks China as being super mega awesome for starting businesses - because it only takes like 5 days to do all the involved paperwork, and it thinks there is no corruption in China - when in reality, time to file paperwork isn't a big deal (between 5 days and a month), and corruption is everywhere - but it's formalized in China (and the US to some extent) - versus under-the-table as you see in India. So the tool isn't all that great for more than a passing look - because it shits on some countries and triumphs others based on the weights they assign - and how they measure things.

Tools like this are interesting at first glance, but the more you pick their methodology apart - the less reliable they really are.

Reading an objective analysis of US health care that didn't take the exorbitant costs into account, the US doesn't even have the best specialists. The one area where the US excels is cancer treatment, and again, that's on the "if you can afford it" condition. Anyone who can't just dies.

The US ranks anywhere from middle of the pack to downright terrible in all other areas. All of these people who say that the US has the best specialists in the world if you can afford it bought a Maserati and when they got it home found a Honda motorcycle engine under the hood.