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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And despite claims of it being 'outdated', can you name an MMO that is, on all fronts, a superior experience (and have it be a concensus opinion)?
    This bits a little weird, I don't think any mmo is going to be considered superior to all others as a consensus opinion. MMOs have expanded enough now that people don't all expect the same thing from them.

    Personally, I think there's a good long list of now standard features that WoW is slowly adopting (some that it can't really due to current player expectations), and this does make it feel old.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    This bits a little weird, I don't think any mmo is going to be considered superior to all others as a consensus opinion. MMOs have expanded enough now that people don't all expect the same thing from them.

    Personally, I think there's a good long list of now standard features that WoW is slowly adopting (some that it can't really due to current player expectations), and this does make it feel old.
    I should have worded it differently. I guess I should say that if you look at all the key points that an mmo provides to a player, this game still scores fairly consistently... some other games, for example, have better graphics, but might be quite lacking in some other department. A lot of that is simply related to the maturity and support of the product (add-on's, for example), but the point still stands.

  3. #83
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    The fact that WoW is old is irrelevant, as they continue to make upgraded not only to game play, but to graphics as well. There is no reason to believe WoW does not have a bright future ahead still.
    Except, you know, that fact that its losing subscribers.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    What other convenience was removed? Hmmm, how about reasonably easy 5-mans and ICC10 level raiding? Also, HG:WT was removed in MOP iirc.
    Guess people thought convenience = easymode

    The dungeons being hard or not has nothing to do with convenience. Is it convenient the dungeons are cakewalks? For me it is not convenient at all, cause I like dungeons where I need to focus instead of falling asleep. I like to earn my way to a reward. I like the sense of adventure not knowing if the group will succeed in clearing the dungeon. (be it through difficulty or because the group falls apart)

    You name the 10 man ICC raids. This was not a feature. This was an imbalance. They should have balanced 10 and 25 man equally. So this was not a convenience feature.

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans Deathgoose's Avatar
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    People like to tout WoW being so popular when it first was released because it was so much "harder" (Which many would argue is just a code word for needlessly tedious and/or just complete broken and crap, ala Ret and many other absolutely crap specs from Vanilla)

    But they seem to always overlook the fact that when WoW was released, even with Vanilla being considered "harder" than it is currently, it was still considered the "casual" alternative to EQ, Ultima, and other similar MMO's that had been around for a while already.
    Last edited by Deathgoose; 2013-11-22 at 02:55 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    People like to tout WoW being so popular when it first was released because it was so much "harder" (Which many would argue is just a code word for needlessly tedious and/or just complete broken and crap, ala Ret and many other absolutely crap specs from Vanilla)

    But they seem to always overlook the fact that when WoW was released, even with Vanilla being considered "harder" than it is currently, it was still considered the "casual" alternative to EQ, Ultima, and other similar MMO's that had been around for a while already.
    You are correct, but I dont understand why it matters? The argument people use is that it is too casual now, not that it was the most casual MMO when it was released.

  7. #87
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    The community on my old server sucked in TBC. It was cliqueish and exclusionary, to the point that anyone not in t5, who wasn't a rogue or a mage, would be lambasted for wanting to DPS 5-man Heroics as early as a month into Patch 2.3. It was literally more convenient and more feasible for a fresh 70 to lose their way to Season 1 (later 2) in BGs despite the high Honor cost than it was to try pugging through 5-mans. Even the t4 feeder guilds started getting picky about who they would take because they were sick of the t5 guilds poaching them, and the t5 guilds got picky because they were sick of the t6 guilds poaching them. The t6 guilds were picky because they earned it.

    Servers like mine were why LFD was implemented. They were why guild levels were implemented to encourage sticking with your guild. They were why Wrath did an about-face and offered more accessible, easier 5-mans.
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  8. #88
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Big guilds support big communities. Communities support individuals. The end of Wrath, beginning of Cataclysm saw a lot of big guilds collapse because of splits in raiding groups. We know it happened, we saw it on every server out there. You may like your close knit 10 man guilds, but time and again, they split up, half of the players quit the game because they're left isolated without community.

    That's why we're returning to larger raiding models which require large guilds to support them. Sub loss is nothing to do with convenience of things like LFR/LFD/Flying mounts. All those offer accessibility, but the biggest enabler of access is, was, and always will be other players. It's amazing how few people recognise that, while at the same time relying on it. Blizzard need to support it, but not by removing the other tools, because we all use them anyway.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-11-22 at 03:40 PM.

  9. #89
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    The dungeons being hard or not has nothing to do with convenience. Is it convenient the dungeons are cakewalks? For me it is not convenient at all, cause I like dungeons where I need to focus instead of falling asleep. I like to earn my way to a reward. I like the sense of adventure not knowing if the group will succeed in clearing the dungeon.
    Yeah, only problem is, most people do not agree with your opinion. Consequently, in order to keep/expand their playerbase, major VG editors have to either follow that trend (WoW) or be happy with a small niche playerbase (EvE)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    You name the 10 man ICC raids. This was not a feature. This was an imbalance. They should have balanced 10 and 25 man equally.
    Balance raids equally despite ICC 10-man dropping worse loot? Now that is an original - albeit very bad - idea.
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  10. #90
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumicide View Post
    We don't really have to talk to anyone else, and we'll often never see anyone we play with ever again (in LFR, LFD, and X-Server regions)). There's a social consequence to your interactions in a finite (especially small) community. If you're completely anonymous, there really aren't any repercussions; not much incentive to be kind, try to play well, or even play at all.
    This is all player choice though. There's no special benefit socially to being forced to interact with people that you would never give the time of day to in real life.

    I don't need an incentive to be nice or to play well. I have enough self-respect that I don't hide like some coward behind internet anonymity just so I can act out my fantasy of being a moronic asshole. And when I log on to play, I log on to play, not watch TV on some other monitor. I value relationships over convenience. So personally I don't buy the argument that convenience leads to a less social community. I believe there's a serious fallacy in the premise.

    The fallacy is in believing that realms are the primary social unit. They're not: guilds are. If realms ever really were the level at which a real community was created they weren't for long. That began to inevitably break down when the game started to grow by leaps and bounds. Guilds however: you aren't anonymous in a guild if it's a good one; you won't be in a guild very long if you're an asshole or fuck off in dungeons/raids. There are relationships formed in guilds. Friends can be made.

    Once the game really started to expand, the notion that realms were small tight communities became little more than nostalgia. That was years ago and before the random matchmaking tools appeared. LFG only accelerated a process that was already well under way as the game expanded into the multi-millions. 'Community' breakdown at the realm level would have happened anyway. Realm reputation as a concept is wildly overblown. It was rare on any sizable realm if you knew more than a couple of dozen people. Most of the standout personalities on realms were people you knew you wanted to avoid.

    If, after all of this, you want community on a realm level, find an RP realm that sponsors realm-wide events. RP realms can get to be too large as well but for the most part--aside from PVP realms which I don't play on--they're the only realms in which things happen that occasionally bring people together. RP realms generally do have a better community while at the same time, they have all of the conveniences of PVE realms. So it's not that. PVE realms generally don't much go in for that sort of thing where everyone on the realm is invited to some event. There's nothing stopping that though. It just happens more often on good RP realms.

    Just to add on a bit more: With Blizzard rolling out their connected realm technology the problem of realms being the primary unit of social responsibility gets only worse. The only advantage to it and it's an advantage that supercedes the problem is that it should be much easier to create the sorts of guilds that people are interested in, be it social, raiding, RP or otherwise. Which again only points out that the primary social unit in the game is a guild, not a realm. Nothing to do with convenience but everything to do with the frame in which 'community' is created. It's on you to surround yourself with players you find acceptable as friends, associates, etc. Don't expect Blizzard to force people into communities they would never join. Like your behavior in the game and with others, it's a personal responsibility. If one doesn't want to subscribe to that, that's fine. But they shouldn't complain about the outcomes.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-11-22 at 07:12 PM.
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ribald View Post
    Except, you know, that fact that its losing subscribers.
    The game hasn't reached its stable point yet nor will it, it will continue to have spikes and declines but the rate at which its losing subscribers still has the game relevant for several years unless something drastic happens.

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