Form your own group if you dont like how others lead. No one is keeping you from entering the instance. Players choosing to work together as a team and place the benefit of the group over an individual are not anti-social. The random finder systems get used used by players with social issues or anti-teamwork mentality and force themselves upon others in group based content. Groups did not get anymore restrictive than it did back in Classic. WotLK and Cata group restrictions was nothing new.
Yes it is your choice how you choose to talk with others, just be ready to be responsible for the outcomes of your choices.
Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-11-22 at 11:29 AM.
Don't blame the tool, blame the tools that misuse the tool.
The tools don't take away from the community, the community has taken away from itself.
What did you see happen before? People spending hours to form groups for simple shit ... which means they weren't doing guild runs ... so the 'guild' thing was a problem already.
Playing with friends x-realm is a great thing, because playing with friends is great, especially not having to spend extra money to do so. Making friends on servers ... well, not everyone thinks every person that says hi to them is their 'friend'. You also wouldn't really befriend a person who is a trade chat douchebag either.
LFD/LFR ... well, it sure beats forming a group for 2 hours, flying out there, to have one of the people leave before entering the damn place for whatever reason ... not to mention the gearscore crap that started to spring up.
See, the tools don't take away from a toxic community, they just give you alternative ways to play without directly dealing with them. See, you can still form groups, you can still join/create a guild, you can still do everything you've always done, and now you can also use the tools in game with those friends and guilds to make it more convenient for you. No need for using kick, if you do full friend/guild runs!
Yes, server communities in theory are great ... but not when the community was already becoming very toxic.
You want to remove core features of WoW ... features that if they don't launch in other MMOs it is considered a travesty!
Just remember, if any new MMO launches, be sure to run to the defense of any 'missing' features you wish to be removed from WoW, and state how that company's decision to not implement it is far superior to WoW's decision to keep the feature.
See, what Blizz is doing is working on the entire game being -one- community. That is a move towards a true 'MMO', right now we have that first 'M' standing for moderately (multiplayer), not massively. 5-20k per server. Boasts millions of subs, but you might only see a couple hundred unique players at any given time outside super crowded highly factional servers like Illidan and Stormrage (about 20k and almost all in one faction). As they work on connected realms, as we go forward, there may be a time where ALL servers are connected, or there will only be a few 'super-servers' where the community is split between, relying on tech like they do in CRZ, spawning another instance when one gets full. Other games go about this similar but different (Tera and SWtOR, channels/instanced planets-fleets).
Look, you can try to blame the features/tools all you want ... the real problem lies with the people playing the game, not the things we can use in the game. Fix the people, starting with yourself. It doesn't take many to influence a great group. Be consistent. Be helpful. Spread the positive attitude and it will catch on. It has worked in other games, but it takes someone making the leap and organizing positive server events. Giving away runs instead of selling them. Organizing community events and activities. Taking the time to help out lowbies as a form of recruitment, not just random whisper spam. Helping them out even if they are guilded, and hint they'd be welcome with your guild if they ever needed a new home. Just doing things step by step, YOU can create the interactive community you desire ... just don't expect it to be handed to you without effort, Blizz can only design the games and systems, they can't MAKE you be social or interact. That is up to YOU.
This is pretty spot on. Not only do these conveniences increase population size beyond what is really sustainable, they also drop the new player into a community from the get go without giving them a reason to join it. Also, guilds themselves now reward players for joining a group while still leveling and punish them for leaving the guild by resetting their guild progress; this discourages them finding guilds that suit them. Those guilds are rewarded for exceeding the ideal population size as well.
Then of course, there's the situation where the only time it's beneficial to be in a group is when it's required, decreasing the opportunities to find other people of similar interests and skill level on an individual basis. That of course has been compounded by the cross realm community challenges, though this may be fixed with their "not server mergers" system.
It's like folks who rail on about the desktop PC being outdated, while ignoring the fact that there is absolutely nothing on the market more customizable, more suitable for computing tasks excluding mobility, and certainly nothing more powerful. It's not even debatable.
It's just that the pc itself has existed for decades, and our society tends to gravitate towards the myth that newer is always better. I'll wait patiently while the wheel is reinvented.
"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB
Personally, I think there's a good long list of now standard features that WoW is slowly adopting (some that it can't really due to current player expectations), and this does make it feel old.
"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB
If I had one dream it would be to make 'rose-tinted glasses' an auto-ban word.
Mods are asleep, post private server threads.
The dungeons being hard or not has nothing to do with convenience. Is it convenient the dungeons are cakewalks? For me it is not convenient at all, cause I like dungeons where I need to focus instead of falling asleep. I like to earn my way to a reward. I like the sense of adventure not knowing if the group will succeed in clearing the dungeon. (be it through difficulty or because the group falls apart)
You name the 10 man ICC raids. This was not a feature. This was an imbalance. They should have balanced 10 and 25 man equally. So this was not a convenience feature.
People like to tout WoW being so popular when it first was released because it was so much "harder" (Which many would argue is just a code word for needlessly tedious and/or just complete broken and crap, ala Ret and many other absolutely crap specs from Vanilla)
But they seem to always overlook the fact that when WoW was released, even with Vanilla being considered "harder" than it is currently, it was still considered the "casual" alternative to EQ, Ultima, and other similar MMO's that had been around for a while already.
Last edited by Deathgoose; 2013-11-22 at 02:55 PM.
The community on my old server sucked in TBC. It was cliqueish and exclusionary, to the point that anyone not in t5, who wasn't a rogue or a mage, would be lambasted for wanting to DPS 5-man Heroics as early as a month into Patch 2.3. It was literally more convenient and more feasible for a fresh 70 to lose their way to Season 1 (later 2) in BGs despite the high Honor cost than it was to try pugging through 5-mans. Even the t4 feeder guilds started getting picky about who they would take because they were sick of the t5 guilds poaching them, and the t5 guilds got picky because they were sick of the t6 guilds poaching them. The t6 guilds were picky because they earned it.
Servers like mine were why LFD was implemented. They were why guild levels were implemented to encourage sticking with your guild. They were why Wrath did an about-face and offered more accessible, easier 5-mans.
The sheer fact that we have people being so asinine as to split hairs over the exact definition of content is a sign that there isn't any worth discussing for non-raiders.
I think it's about time we stopped scapegoating each other and started demanding better from the devs.
Big guilds support big communities. Communities support individuals. The end of Wrath, beginning of Cataclysm saw a lot of big guilds collapse because of splits in raiding groups. We know it happened, we saw it on every server out there. You may like your close knit 10 man guilds, but time and again, they split up, half of the players quit the game because they're left isolated without community.
That's why we're returning to larger raiding models which require large guilds to support them. Sub loss is nothing to do with convenience of things like LFR/LFD/Flying mounts. All those offer accessibility, but the biggest enabler of access is, was, and always will be other players. It's amazing how few people recognise that, while at the same time relying on it. Blizzard need to support it, but not by removing the other tools, because we all use them anyway.
I don't need an incentive to be nice or to play well. I have enough self-respect that I don't hide like some coward behind internet anonymity just so I can act out my fantasy of being a moronic asshole. And when I log on to play, I log on to play, not watch TV on some other monitor. I value relationships over convenience. So personally I don't buy the argument that convenience leads to a less social community. I believe there's a serious fallacy in the premise.
The fallacy is in believing that realms are the primary social unit. They're not: guilds are. If realms ever really were the level at which a real community was created they weren't for long. That began to inevitably break down when the game started to grow by leaps and bounds. Guilds however: you aren't anonymous in a guild if it's a good one; you won't be in a guild very long if you're an asshole or fuck off in dungeons/raids. There are relationships formed in guilds. Friends can be made.
Once the game really started to expand, the notion that realms were small tight communities became little more than nostalgia. That was years ago and before the random matchmaking tools appeared. LFG only accelerated a process that was already well under way as the game expanded into the multi-millions. 'Community' breakdown at the realm level would have happened anyway. Realm reputation as a concept is wildly overblown. It was rare on any sizable realm if you knew more than a couple of dozen people. Most of the standout personalities on realms were people you knew you wanted to avoid.
If, after all of this, you want community on a realm level, find an RP realm that sponsors realm-wide events. RP realms can get to be too large as well but for the most part--aside from PVP realms which I don't play on--they're the only realms in which things happen that occasionally bring people together. RP realms generally do have a better community while at the same time, they have all of the conveniences of PVE realms. So it's not that. PVE realms generally don't much go in for that sort of thing where everyone on the realm is invited to some event. There's nothing stopping that though. It just happens more often on good RP realms.
Just to add on a bit more: With Blizzard rolling out their connected realm technology the problem of realms being the primary unit of social responsibility gets only worse. The only advantage to it and it's an advantage that supercedes the problem is that it should be much easier to create the sorts of guilds that people are interested in, be it social, raiding, RP or otherwise. Which again only points out that the primary social unit in the game is a guild, not a realm. Nothing to do with convenience but everything to do with the frame in which 'community' is created. It's on you to surround yourself with players you find acceptable as friends, associates, etc. Don't expect Blizzard to force people into communities they would never join. Like your behavior in the game and with others, it's a personal responsibility. If one doesn't want to subscribe to that, that's fine. But they shouldn't complain about the outcomes.
Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-11-22 at 07:12 PM.
Discussing moderation is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts instead of responding to them. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.
Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is crap. When posting try and be in the 10% once in a while. It makes it better for everyone. First rule: Post about the topic, not about one another.