Pug dungeon builds aka near-meta builds

[Hraklea]

That makes sense. Thanks for the fast answer, time to review my build.

[Meledelion]

@laserguns

I'm wondering what's up, do you still disagree or have you changed your opinion?
While I'm on the topic of our discussion, what's your stance on the other one we had regarding the CD reduction on GS skills doing (close to) nothing for DPS?

I'm asking because if you are still convinced I am wrong, there will be other people who are too. If this is the case, I put the blame at myself for not explaining the issue properly so I'd like to clear things up.

[Deleted]

Hey Meledelion

1) I've seen no reason to change opinion (i.e. figures taking into account 100b/ww in rotation; average groups). You know 100b does like 40k damage in 3 seconds yeah? You don't just calculate DPS based on how much power and crit modifer you have. If you use the big damage skill every 10 seconds, as opposed to never using it, it's a big dps increase!

2) I've always agreed, GS skills reduction doesn't make much difference. You're taking that trait for the might, to get to the 25 arms 10% damage, and extra precision

3) You're wrong for the reasons I have already mentioned.

also, i doubt you considered this, but if you're swapping to GS on cooldown, the autoattacks before you swap back give 2 stacks of vulnerability. Either that or you use whirlwind; it probably works out about the same. One thing I am interested in hearing clarification of: How do you manage 20 stacks of vulnerability with your spec? The most I could get (without omm) on the dummy in mists was 18, and that was with 30/25/0/0/15!

[Meledelion]

1. You don't seem to understand that the damage difference isn't calculated by me but by Nikephoros. The thing I do is update the strength of the compared build to the correct one, this means that you don't need to recalculate the DPS for all skills.

X(30/25/...) = Y(20/30/...) + 24% knowing this you can calculate the difference (the, for now, +24%) without calculating anything about X.
If you get a build where Y1(30/20/...) does 10% more dmg than Y you get this: Y1 = Y+10%
You then grab those equations and fit them in together so you can find out that X = Y1+14%

That's what I did, this is pretty basic math. There's no need to calculate the rotations etc, if you know the dps difference to begin with.

The 24% was gotten from Nikephoros.
The difference between Y and Y1 was calculated by comparing the EP of both builds mentioned in my first reply here. You only need to know EP to know the damage difference and not the "real" DPS number since that's the only variable when comparing these two builds. There's no weapon CD reduction traits or other weapons that make things more difficult.

2. You seem to have forgotten what you said:

Might+CD reduction is far more important (remember you have 5s weapon swap from Fast Hands so that's not an issue) as it allows you to do a perfect rotation in sync with weapon swap.

I showed to you that the CD reduction doesn't do anything (which you now agree on it seems). And it's pretty well known that the might is a double edged sword.

You get the precision regardless of what trait you pick there, the might is a burden more often than not due to overwriting of long might. The CD reduction is useless meaning that it's better to go with Deep Strikes over Forceful GS.

3. ???? You've only said "where do those numbers come from."

Yes I've onsidered this. When you swap, you lose 12stacks of vulnerability over time, Rending Strikes = 3stacks of vuln (if you have 100% crit chance and 30% condition duration, which both 30/25/... and 30/20/... do.
With HB you hit 9times in 3.5s or 2.57 hits/s => 2.57*9(vulnerability duration of RS)*1/3 = 7 stacks of vuln. This means that during HB you'll at most hit 19stacks of vulnerability.

You'll get the same amount of stacks regardless of if you use 30/25/0/0/15 or 30/20/0/20/0, I made an error in my calculations it seems. While you can get to 20stacks of vuln every 15s it's not 20stacks the entire time, it's 17 on average. These two stacks would mean that the damage modifier changes from 2.148375492 to 2.094666105 which is hardly noticeable and will be rounded by the game to the same number (2.1). But you were correct, I made an error.
Screenshot for proof:


There also is no room for auto-attacks with the Greatsword: see this

[nevermore]

re: Elementalist

Out of curiosity, are there any decent D/D dungeon builds?
I simply find D/D tons more entertaining than staff of scepter, so would be cool if I could use that in PvE.

[Deleted]

re: Elementalist

Out of curiosity, are there any decent D/D dungeon builds?
I simply find D/D tons more entertaining than staff of scepter, so would be cool if I could use that in PvE.

D/D ele has been out of the meta for a while. Before 13th Dec patch the meta builds were S/D Might/LH and Lava Staff. This patch didn't really change them except for maybe switching the traits around a little bit.

Daggers are still fine, but their auto-attacks aren't strong, so they rely on constantly switching elements. D&D don't have many options to maintain DPS when you need to dodge out of combat for a while (when low HP etc).

If you want to play DD, and you should if you enjoy it, try something like this air + water + arcana burst (this is wvw and pve build): http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAo...2cFRrWIABbBA-w Last 10 points are up to playstyle (in wvw roaming vs zerging, for pve ofc more dps and possibly support). In pve take frost bow / lightning hammer if you see don't need that many defensive utilities.

Most importantly, have fun. I posted these "pug-meta" builds to give general idea what are good ways to support your pug group.... and people start to talk over min-max dps. I get it that it is some people's passion and those people are useful for community. But some of us just want to be decent dps/support... and that is enough for us.

[Meledelion]

I posted these "pug-meta" builds to give general idea what are good ways to support your pug group.... and people start to talk over min-max dps. I get it that it is some people's passion and those people are useful for community. But some of us just want to be decent dps/support... and that is enough for us.

Without min-maxing these builds wouldn't exist.

The main concern for me was that you state "FOR PUGS" and that one of your suggestions doesn't fit for that since it requires a second warrior, someone disagreed so I tried to explain why this was the case. My apologies for making the thread go offtopic.

[PACOX]

IMO, safe PUG builds include blinds, reflects, and any boons you can spare in your build because you have to assume that the pugs are terrible. Ill bring S/P on my thief so that at least I know the mobs are blind if someone sucks at dodging, which happens more often than not. I run condi removal shouts on my guardian but I don't that pugs will remove their own or avoid condis all together.

[Meledelion]

Holy mother of necros but I couldn't resist:
Looks like "the entire warrior community" has started figuring out what I've been saying for ages http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jme_2kUY3eM#t=35

1war with ea and banners > 2wars running optimised personal dps builds.

[Litharium]

Ill be 100% honest I didn't even look at the gaurdian build when I read dps and especially hammer dps. You do not use hammer in a dungeon and for the most part you don't dps either. Your goal is to keep people alive give them the stability when needed and other things. Guardians are not meant to be a damage dealer. They are meant to guard hence their class name.

[Deleted]

i have to say that lol kinda sucks nowadays game became really shity

[Meledelion]

Ill be 100% honest I didn't even look at the gaurdian build when I read dps and especially hammer dps. You do not use hammer in a dungeon and for the most part you don't dps either. Your goal is to keep people alive give them the stability when needed and other things. Guardians are not meant to be a damage dealer. They are meant to guard hence their class name.

Then what would you run on a guardian?

Hammer gives one of the strongest guard skills, protection and is the only class that can do this.
How does gear change whether you can give stuff like stability?

[Deleted]

Isn't guard actually still the #1 pve dps spec?

Even if it has been knocked down by a margin, they are far from just being the group stability bot, they do competitive damage in many specs and hammer is one of the best pve weapons in the game

[Litharium]

Isn't guard actually still the #1 pve dps spec?

Even if it has been knocked down by a margin, they are far from just being the group stability bot, they do competitive damage in many specs and hammer is one of the best pve weapons in the game

No not at all they have never been close to top even before their damage nerf. Zerker Warriors/Mesmers/Eles have been the top for a long time. Idk where you get hammer is the best PvE weapon in game. Do you play a guardian I am not trying to sound douchey or anything but a hammer is for WvW for Blasting combofields and trapping with your 3 and 5 skill. The damage on it is pitiful. Greatsword does far more damage overall on a guardian and should be the go to second weapon in PvE behind the Staff.

- - - Updated - - -

Then what would you run on a guardian?

Hammer gives one of the strongest guard skills, protection and is the only class that can do this.
How does gear change whether you can give stuff like stability?

Staff/Greatsword for PvE content Staff/Hammer for WvW content SPvP im not the guy to ask. A guard is not meant to be built as a dps go play a warrior. Zerker dps compared to a warrior is absolutely pitiful and playing that as a guardian is not using your class to its full potential. Sure it works but anyone who seriously plays a guardian will just laugh when they see someone say I am a zerker guardian. Full PVT to keep yourself up you are the front line tank you run in first even though there really aren't tanks anymore you can soak up most of the hits and damage to keep your team alive. That is how a guardian is played in dungeons. Im sorry but I can't accept dps guardian as a viable spec for any form of content except maybe a Havoc squad in WvW but even then they run PVT gear. Hold the line skill also give protection so you don't need your hammer to do it. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Hold_the_Line!%22

I run full PVT gear everything armor, accessories, weapons, Engergy Sigils, Rune of Melandru, Signet of judgement, Hold the Line, Stand your ground, and renewed focus. This is the best general Guardian spec for virtually anything. You can change out your elite to either book depending if you want to support more or add a little more damage.

The reasoning behind not going zerker is because you are far better suited staying alive soaking up as much damage to keep the "real" zerker classes alive so they can continue to do damage. If you would like to talk more in game add laylie.5703 I have over 500+ hours on my guardian and am currently maining it for commanding in WvW as well as my dungeon runner.

Building straight damage is best left to warriors.


Gonna do one last edit: This is a quote from one of the top WvW commanders who has over 5000 hours on a guardian as well as is rank 2500+ in WvW. "If you run zerker on a guard you have no buisness playing one, go reroll a warrior if you want to be a heavy DPS, the roll of a guardian is to make sure your party has stability and protection when needed not for you to do damage" Grant it I know this is a quote from him while hes in WvW but this also applies to dungeons as well there are many many times when a group needs both stability and protection as well as someone who can stay alive to soak that damage.

[Meledelion]

No not at all they have never been close to top even before their damage nerf. Zerker Warriors/Mesmers/Eles have been the top for a long time. Idk where you get hammer is the best PvE weapon in game.

As pointed out below, guardians have been close to top dps for a very long time now, granted warrior was better in the past but due to continues nerfs and minor buffs to guard, guard now is ahead.

Do you play a guardian I am not trying to sound douchey or anything but a hammer is for WvW for Blasting combofields and trapping with your 3 and 5 skill. The damage on it is pitiful. Greatsword does far more damage overall on a guardian and should be the go to second weapon in PvE behind the Staff.

The idea of Hammer DPS is to deal dmg with symbols (light fields) and provide permanent protection, this means you give vulnerability, protection and decent (still lower than both GS or sword) dps with the possibility of condition removal.

Hold the line skill also give protection so you don't need your hammer to do it. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Hold_the_Line!%22

It does but it's 4s duration on a 35s CD and it takes up a utility slot. Compare that to auto attack with hammer that gives 100% and doesn't take up anything else.

I run full PVT gear everything armor, accessories, weapons, Engergy Sigils, Rune of Melandru, Signet of judgement, Hold the Line, Stand your ground, and renewed focus. This is the best general Guardian spec for virtually anything. You can change out your elite to either book depending if you want to support more or add a little more damage.

Energy sigils so you can dodge even more? Melandru runes so you can get even shorter condi removal while you already have light fields and plenty of other tools to deal with them?

The reasoning behind not going zerker is because you are far better suited staying alive soaking up as much damage to keep the "real" zerker classes alive so they can continue to do damage. If you would like to talk more in game add laylie.5703 I have over 500+ hours on my guardian and am currently maining it for commanding in WvW as well as my dungeon runner.

Adressed elsewhere in most part. I have over 1k h played on my guardian, mainly dungeons, ask away since I'm available.

Building straight damage is best left to warriors.

Why?

Gonna do one last edit: This is a quote from one of the top WvW commanders who has over 5000 hours on a guardian as well as is rank 2500+ in WvW. "If you run zerker on a guard you have no buisness playing one, go reroll a warrior if you want to be a heavy DPS, the roll of a guardian is to make sure your party has stability and protection when needed not for you to do damage" Grant it I know this is a quote from him while hes in WvW but this also applies to dungeons as well there are many many times when a group needs both stability and protection as well as someone who can stay alive to soak that damage.

Did it ever cross your mind that he's talking solely about WvW?

Staff/Greatsword for PvE.

And how is staff/gs going to help you tank?
Do you think 271 healing on a 3s CD is going to keep anyone alive?
Do you think a 600HPS heal on a 20s CD is going to keep anyone alive?

A guard is not meant to be built as a dps go play a warrior. Zerker dps compared to a warrior is absolutely pitiful and playing that as a guardian is not using your class to its full potential.

Zerk war, current meta 30/25/0/0/15 = 18k DPS
Zerk guard, current meta 15/30/0/25/0 = 21k DPS

What can't I do as a zerk guard that another guard can?

Sure it works but anyone who seriously plays a guardian will just laugh when they see someone say I am a zerker guardian.

Are you sure http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/35-guardian/?

Full PVT to keep yourself up you are the front line tank you run in first even though there really aren't tanks anymore you can soak up most of the hits and damage to keep your team alive. That is how a guardian is played in dungeons.

Good guards simply do not get hit: aegis, shield of wrath, shelter, renewed focus, ...
Add to this, what is there to soak? One hit kills?
Going full PVT from zerk gives +6k health and +600 toughness, that won't save you.

[Litharium]

1. As pointed out below, guardians have been close to top dps for a very long time now, granted warrior was better in the past but due to continues nerfs and minor buffs to guard, guard now is ahead.


2.The idea of Hammer DPS is to deal dmg with symbols (light fields) and provide permanent protection, this means you give vulnerability, protection and decent (still lower than both GS or sword) dps with the possibility of condition removal.

3. It does but it's 4s duration on a 35s CD and it takes up a utility slot. Compare that to auto attack with hammer that gives 100% and doesn't take up anything else.

4. Energy sigils so you can dodge even more? Melandru runes so you can get even shorter condi removal while you already have light fields and plenty of other tools to deal with them?

5. Adressed elsewhere in most part. I have over 1k h played on my guardian, mainly dungeons, ask away since I'm available.

6. Why?

7. Did it ever cross your mind that he's talking solely about WvW?

8. And how is staff/gs going to help you tank?
Do you think 271 healing on a 3s CD is going to keep anyone alive?
Do you think a 600HPS heal on a 20s CD is going to keep anyone alive?

9. Zerk war, current meta 30/25/0/0/15 = 18k DPS
Zerk guard, current meta 15/30/0/25/0 = 21k DPS

10. What can't I do as a zerk guard that another guard can?

11.Are you sure http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/35-guardian/?

12.Good guards simply do not get hit: aegis, shield of wrath, shelter, renewed focus, ...
Add to this, what is there to soak? One hit kills?
Going full PVT from zerk gives +6k health and +600 toughness, that won't save you.

1. No no no this is 100% false guardians have not ever been close to top dps they did decent damage at best holy shit this is so much omg.
2. I understand the light symbols and granting protection but the fact of the matter is it is not good damage it never has been.
3. If your party needs protection more then that there is a problem.
4. Idk what kind of dungeons you run in but dodging is always amazing for avoiding stuff. Grant it melandrus is not the best but I cant be bothered getting another set for PvE.
6. Idc if you have 1k hours played as guard in fact I do not believe you one bit why? Because 99% of the guardians I get grouped up with in pugs are running staff/greatsword not one I have ever seen use a hammer not a single one and thats through maybe 1000 dungeons or so over all my characters.
7. I stated that it was through WvW but it holds true in Dungeons as well stability and protection are much needed in dungeons.
8. Staff/Greatsword is my personal prefrence you could go GS/Hammer if you enjoy switching your hammer out before fights to do empower but thats a hassle. GS because it does o so much more damage then a hammer.
9. Idk where you pulled these numbers from but I think it lies between your back and your thighs.
10. Live seriously aside from a few dungeon full zerker groups don't work as a pug so having that tanky guard to soak up damage is much needed. Idk how many times in TA I have the spider attacking me the whole time positioned so noone gets hit by the poison. When im on my engi 50/50 we wipe because it goes crazy.
11. That proves me nothing except some people want to try and dps as a guardian which after showing this thread to 5 other guardians in my guild they all laughed and said guardians dont dps.
12. You are right good guards don't just hit all their virtues at once and then renewed focus. I use renewed focus when my party is getting extremely low and the extra health and shield can save someone, or if I am about to get hit by a boss that could one shot me.

I am not going to respond to you in fact I am not even going to come back to this thread because you completely lost my respect when you said zerker warriors do less damage then a zerker guard.

After reading the rest of the thread and seeing how you pulled random numbers for your warrior build I am in fact certain you know nothing and are just trying to be right.

[Meledelion]

1. No no no this is 100% false guardians have not ever been close to top dps they did decent damage at best holy shit this is so much omg.
2. I understand the light symbols and granting protection but the fact of the matter is it is not good damage it never has been.
3. If your party needs protection more then that their is a problem.
4. Idk what kind of dungeons you run in but dodging is always amazing for avoiding stuff. Grant it melandrus is not the best but I cant be bothered getting another set for PvE.
6. Idc if you have 1k hours played as guard in fact I do not believe you one bit why? Because 99% of the guardians I get grouped up with in pugs are running staff/greatsword not one I have ever seen use a hammer not a single one and thats through maybe 1000 dungeons or so over all my characters.
7. I stated that it was through WvW but it holds true in Dungeons as well stability and protection are much needed in dungeons.
8. Staff/Greatsword is my personal prefrence you could go GS/Hammer if you enjoy switching your hammer out before fights to do empower but thats a hassle. GS because it does o so much more damage then a hammer.
9. Idk where you pulled these numbers from but I think it lies between your back and your thighs.
11. That proves me nothing except some people want to try and dps as a guardian which after showing this thread to 5 other guardians in my guild they all laughed and said guardians dont dps.
12. You are right good guards don't just hit all their virtues at once and then renewed focus. I use renewed focus when my party is getting extremely low and the extra health and shield can save someone, or if I am about to get hit by a boss that could one shot me.

1. I urge you to do the math yourself, a zerk guard out dpses a zerk war. As for the past, read this thread and be amazed at how delayed your views are.
2. Not good dmg, decent damage if your goal is to "guard" your team.
3. This is a silly stance if your entire argument is based around: guard is there to help the party stay alive!
4. Yes it is great, but that doesn't mean that you have to dodge every 3s, especially not as a guardian.
6. You're mistaken in what I'm saying, I'm not saying people should run hammer (or do) I'm saying that people should run zerker and do. If you want to be a support zerker guardian, hammer is your best bet.
7. Yes and both a PVT guardian and a naked guardian can provide this.
8. See 5.
9. I'll expand on this soon, you can say ass though it's OK.
11. Did you make sure to tell them we're talking dungeons? Take a look at this youtube channel.
12. So you use your elite to heal your team for 3.2k, 1.6k HPS on a 90s CD?

9. LENGTHY!
Current war meta build
Current guard meta build
(I didn't fix gear, nor did I update the builds to what I/my team runs which is what my previously mentioned numbers were based on)

I'll simplify things a bit:
Stats:
Berserker armor: 329 power, 235 precision, 017% crit dmg
Berserker acces: 570 power, 376 precision, 044% crit dmg
Berserker weaps: 188 power, 134 precision, 010% crit dmg
S Scholar runes: 165 power, ............., 008% crit dmg, 10% dmg
Sigil(nght+frce): 00 power, ............., 000% crit dmg, 15.5% dmg
Sigil(perception): 00power, 250 precision
Banner (dsc/st): 170 power, 170 precision, 015% crit dmg
Combat buffs: 250 power, 150 precision, 010% crit dmg, 00% dmg
Combat boons: 875 power, 420 precision, 000% crit dmg, 25% dmg
Standard stats: 916 power, not important, 150% crit dmg, 100% dmg
Total: 3463 power, 1735 prec = 82.6% +4% base crit chance, 254% crit dmg, 174.7% dmg

That's everything which both the war and guard have let's add traits:
warri: 300 power, 250 precision, 25% crit dmg, 136.89% dmg
guard: 200 power, 250 precision, 00% crit dmg, 166.11% dmg

Totals:
Warri: 3763 power, 1985 prec = 98.52% crit chance, 279% crit dmg, 239.14% dmg => EP = 24 868
Guard: 3663 power, 1985 prec = 98.52% crit chance, 254% crit dmg, 290.18% dmg => EP = 26 756

DPS:
DMG = Power * Weapon strength * skill-specific coefficient / target's Armor
Warri: (24 868 * 1000 * 5 / 2600 = 47 823
Guard: (26 756 * 1000 * 3.1 /2600 = 31 902

DPS = DMG/Activation time
Warri: 47 823 / 3.6 = 13284
Guard: 35 023 / 2.5 = 12761

[Deleted]

Well, this thread got intense.

Anyway, power to the zerk guardians! I suppose the beauty of GW2 PVE is tat you can spec/gear whatever way you enjoy and succeed, there's nothing demanding enough to require immaculate gear/traits

[Deleted]

Well, this thread got intense.

Anyway, power to the zerk guardians! I suppose the beauty of GW2 PVE is tat you can spec/gear whatever way you enjoy and succeed, there's nothing demanding enough to require immaculate gear/traits

Ye, but it is actually quite lovely to see people playing with numbers. Those people doing all the math do help community to find/understand builds even if one does not play in such "high" level. I am casual player in GW2, if I focus too much min-max I also stop enjoying the game. I think it is opposite to Meledelion, for him it is all numbers and max efficiency.

Meledelion What kind of dungeon groups do you prefer these days? Aka is it still 1 guard 3 warr 1 mesmer or 4warr 1 mesmer to cof etc. I think you do not play with casual pugs, so those would be speed run groups.

[Meledelion]

If it's a full team of people I know we run war, guard, ranger, staff ele, LH ele.
It's important to note that if you don't have norn ranger/guard they run Spirit of Nature/Renewed Focus.
A quick tip for FGS: if the staff ele summons it the LH picks it up, if the LH summons it the guard picks it up. Ranger and warrior should never pick up summoned weapons unless you're doing a 4*Conjure Frost Bow spike, in which case the ranger and guard pick up the bows.

The moment we need to take a pug it becomes 2*war (preferably the pug(s)), guard, ranger, LH ele.

For serious business speed clears, we tend to swap out the guard for a mes so we don't need to sacrifice an ele for a thief to get access to stealth.