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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    Vuhdo ftw.
    Hate vuhdo. Sorry lol

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    That's what I did and look where I am now. Argument = Invalid.
    http://www.fatsharkyes.eu/?page_id=5...=viewtopic&t=3

    Yes, seems like your guild is picking up people from /2.

    There are two ways to get into serious raiding. One is writing an application and the other is having connections and knowing people. I for example did not write an application to my guild for T16 (finished WR10 #24). But that was simply because my guild asked me to join them, as they have heard from another guild that were friends of mine that I was available. No serious guild will accept anyone without either knowing the person or after a good screening process which in 99.99% of the cases involve an application before anything else.

    Of course I also started my wow career in a /2 guild back in the days when I was a giant noob/bottom feeder. But, sticking to /2 will not get you anywhere. At some point you will have to man up and show dedication unless you know people.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-11-20 at 11:41 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #83
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    We've found that asking people a dozen or so more specific questions with a "what else do you want to say?" question at the end results in the best applications. If the questions are too broad or vague, like "say something about yourself", you'll get answers that are either too long or too short. Ask people a few random questions instead and you'll get to know the stuff you care about plus get a feel for the person. What questions you choose to ask also lets the applicant get a feel for what your guild is like.

    I personally like including both "what else should we know about you?" and "what did we forget to ask you about?" at the end, as they tend to get fairly interesting answers. It also lets you immediately discard any applicant who answers the second question with "nothing".

    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Hate vuhdo. Sorry lol
    It's still better than anything else once it's configured. The addon requires a bit of time investment to configure, but once you've tweaked it it can do anything that another addon can do plus five hundred other things you never knew you wanted.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  4. #84
    Id rather have someone put effort into an app, than little effort.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    I would also insist that they do not have their account hidden in WoW Progress. Detective work is possible without this but takes much longer. I also fail to think of any valid reason why someone would do this.
    Had a guildie who was being harassed by someone in game, pretty severely and Blizzard wasn't doing much about it so they tried to "hide out" on alts and other servers for a little bit. Third party sites (such as wow-progress and wow-heroes) were used to track their alts and servers. I know it's possible to do that even if you hide your profiles but, as you said, it's much more work and I'd guess a lot of people don't know how to do it. That's a pretty valid reason, and others like that reason exist.
    I'm not saying that a screening process isn't good or any app process isn't good; any decent guild has these (or should IMO). Just pointing out that there are VERY valid reasons people try to hide themselves and it's not just because they are bad at this game.

  6. #86
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    You can tell if a player is good by just an armory link and some logs.
    The main benefit of the application itself is that the more the person writes the easier it is to see if they're an idiot in regards to things other than performance.

  7. #87
    The application shouldn't be insanely long but should be enough for you to get an idea of who the person behind the toon is without feeling like a background check.

  8. #88
    Our application has gone through probably ten individual overhauls in the past four years. It's had to evolve as our expectations and goals have.

    I think, when making an application you need to consider what is really important to you and your people, and you need to extrapolate that from the applicants. For us its these things in rough order, (debatable).

    * Raiding ability / pedigree
    * Why do you play the game?
    * Class knowledge
    * Culture fit / morality concerns
    * Commitment
    * Personality
    * Research capability
    * Intelligence

    ^ Structuring some questions around the above give us a really good insight into the type of person that we're dealing with, and is often enough to eschew a Mumble interview. If we wish for the person to elucidate further, or to answer any personality concerns, that's when we get them on Mumble.

    Two things to keep in mind when building an application process

    1 - An application is usually a person's first vision over the core morals / expectations of a guild. Make sure your questions leave the applicant under no illusions as to the nature of your guild. If you care about your culture, they need to know that as it will save you grief down the line and give you some leverage to call that person out if they start acting up. You can say "Hey, you promised to never be an elitist dickhead in your app, why are you acting the fool now?"

    2 -Give your raiders the opportunity to contribute to the process. You might care about past experience, or in depth knowledge about rotations, but they might care about other things and it's important to give them a chance to have those things explained by an applicant.

    I also believe that there's no such thing as an application that is 'too long' or 'too detailed'. The core function of an application is to act as a filter. Right there, if the app is too long for someone, that's not the kind of person I want in my raid team. If they struggle with detail, how do they expect to conquer an incredibly complex encounter?

    That's all the advice my incredibly caffeinated brain can conjure this morning. Please get in touch if you'd like a copy of our application as a framework for your own

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    It's still better than anything else once it's configured. The addon requires a bit of time investment to configure, but once you've tweaked it it can do anything that another addon can do plus five hundred other things you never knew you wanted.
    It's good to know you feel that way. There's also people who still think Bartender and Xperl are the best things in the world lmao.

    As I said, to each his own.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    That's what I did and look where I am now. Argument = Invalid.
    Statistic exception = still valid.

  11. #91
    Long applications is a waste of time, a person who can write an app who takes me 2 mins to read but yet I know everything I wanted to know is the kind of app which proves that he is the player you're looking for.

    In an recruitment thread you will mention what you're recruiting, what you expect and what you can offer, so when people post an app they have already accepted that and are just posting the missing information about their class. No point trying to convince everybody you're a good guy with plenty of skills when all they need to know is if you meet the criteria written in the guild recruitment thread. During the trial you will be able to see if that player is what you want and if he performs the way he should.

    This way you don't eliminate all the great players out there who may not want to spend and eternity writing the perfect app. You'll get 3 times the amount of apps and you get 3 times the chance to find the guy who fits your guild.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    It's good to know you feel that way. There's also people who still think Bartender and Xperl are the best things in the world lmao.

    As I said, to each his own.
    Bartender IS the best thing in the world.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    It's good to know you feel that way. There's also people who still think Bartender and Xperl are the best things in the world lmao.

    As I said, to each his own.
    Hey, I use Bartender+Xpearl combo
    And best Healing addon is HealBot, simple as that

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Long applications is a waste of time, a person who can write an app who takes me 2 mins to read but yet I know everything I wanted to know is the kind of app which proves that he is the player you're looking for.

    In an recruitment thread you will mention what you're recruiting, what you expect and what you can offer, so when people post an app they have already accepted that and are just posting the missing information about their class. No point trying to convince everybody you're a good guy with plenty of skills when all they need to know is if you meet the criteria written in the guild recruitment thread. During the trial you will be able to see if that player is what you want and if he performs the way he should.

    This way you don't eliminate all the great players out there who may not want to spend and eternity writing the perfect app. You'll get 3 times the amount of apps and you get 3 times the chance to find the guy who fits your guild.
    For most people the guy who doesn't want to spend an "eternity" (20 minutes) filling out an app is exactly the person they are trying to filter out. Mission accomplished.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    These topics are always filled with bottom feeders who are used to the "/2 LF GUILD, PLS INV" and therefore seem incredulous at the thought of needing to write an application.

    To get into any respectable guild, you need to apply.
    Or know people.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Octa View Post
    For most people the guy who doesn't want to spend an "eternity" (20 minutes) filling out an app is exactly the person they are trying to filter out. Mission accomplished.
    Couldn't agree more.

  17. #97
    I think most people that don't "get" applications have simply never been on the administration end of a raiding guild before.

    Heroic raid guilds do not recruit people for a month, 3 months, or a tier. Recruits are wanted basically for life. I consider it either a fault of the applicant or a fault in our recruiting process if someone leaves (the guild, quitting raiding or WoW altogether is different) or has to be kicked within 6 months of their joining. We don't want to make people pay $25 or $55 for a transfer (depending on faction change) if they're not going to stay, and we certainly don't ever want to have to deal with getting more new recruits because it's a painful and time-consuming process to acclimate a new person to a raiding guild.

    The first thing that's generally provided are armor/WoL links, usually as a quick screening of whether or not the person in question is terrible. Sometimes you can tell the difference between good and great in log files, but usually they're only useful to check and see if any major errors are happening or deaths are frequent. This lets us know if we should even bother considering the person.

    The next most important things are playstyle and background information. We ask applicants to briefly describe their rotation or spell/ability usage, provide a UI screenshot (mostly to check for any kind of raid frames, no one wants a DPS that hides their raid frames), and tell us about their raiding experience (people that have never done current tier heroic progression are typically very unlikely to pick it up quickly). After that is personality things like describing past guilds and reasons for leaving, age, and why they want to join our guild. At the end is a free-form "anything else?" question.

    Once the application is submitted, anyone in the guild can comment either in a public comment section that the applicant can see and respond to (for questions usually) or a private comment section to talk about the app. Once we have a little bit of feedback the officers discuss if we want the person, and if we do we'll set up a talk on Mumble to go more in-depth but mostly to make sure the applicant understands our guild and the way we do things to make sure they actually do want to join. After they transfer and join, it's a quick 2 week trial period where they're brought in for all farm but no progression and they're typically promoted to being a regular raider after that period if nothing went wrong (like being awful at mechanics or not showing up to/staying for raids).

    We do all of these things both so our time and the applicant's time isn't wasted because we want people that will join, be good raiders, and stay, not people that will bail after a month or end up being terrible and we have to remove them. If anyone mentions that they're only looking for a place until the end of the tier or the end of the expansion, they're typically instantly declined. We don't have time to bring randoms on trial runs because on most heroic bosses one person can kill everyone if they screw up badly enough and every second longer that farm takes is a potential pull lost on the progression boss for that week.
    Brewmaster, Windwalker, and Mistweaver enthusiast and theorycrafter.

  18. #98
    It amuses me how certain people have these "ideas" about what a good raider is and does. Things like where they bind their keys, or what addons they use for healing, if any. Very amusing indeed. I wonder how many raiders you pass over that are as good if not better than the people already on your team just because they disagree with you about using shit like Vudhoo rofl.

    Pure ridiculousness. When you're a control freak to the degree that you need to know where people's keybindings are or what they see on their UI, you have problems. Seriously.

    As to the OP, different people want different things from their recruits, and some are extremely anal about stupid, unimportant shit. You may say keep it brief, but then you have some other asshole (probably one int his very thread somewhere) with the same message about keeping it brief but in his mind, for whatever reason, if you don't write enough he feels like you don't want it bad enough and are DQ'd because of it. That shit happens. A lot of these people that imagine themselves to be "very good" at this game are a little crazy for obvious reasons.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  19. #99
    One of you wise guild masters here should totally recruit me.

    Btw, application part is the easiest part. I always took a good 30 mins for my applications. Even though I only filled out like 3. Actually probably 2. I got rejected from one too lol.

  20. #100
    Bloodsail Admiral Daedelus's Avatar
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    I don't get why people ask for personal information like real-life name and age. You can ask if they are 18+ but age is basically irrelevant and so is IRL name.

    One or two paragraphs about your raiding experience, why you are leaving your old guild and what you are looking for in the new guild, plus a couple of logs are all that's required.

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