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  1. #101
    Mechagnome Razecog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    There are two ways to get into serious raiding. One is writing an application and the other is having connections and knowing people. I for example did not write an application to my guild for T16 (finished WR10 #24). But that was simply because my guild asked me to join them, as they have heard from another guild that were friends of mine that I was available. No serious guild will accept anyone without either knowing the person or after a good screening process which in 99.99% of the cases involve an application before anything else.

    Of course I also started my wow career in a /2 guild back in the days when I was a giant noob/bottom feeder. But, sticking to /2 will not get you anywhere. At some point you will have to man up and show dedication unless you know people.
    All I'm saying is that exceptional raiders can be found anywhere.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Not really sure why people want UI pics so badly, that's about as autistic as it gets.
    Say you get a recruit in your guild that keeps dying to standing on shit and you never know why and neither him. Then you check their UI and you see the freaking mess it is i.e. combat text enabled (i.e. if ur a healer with strong aoe u will be overrun by combat texts), huge addons occupying space from your screen (i.e. recount, chat, etc), raid frames on weird positions which tells me (if ur a healer again) you have to change your focus from the middle of ur screen to weird places like top left etc... DBM alerts right on top of everything instead of moved a bit to the side... The list keeps going on. I've helped a bunch of guildies with their UI and it has improved alot their raid awareness. Too much clutter = more chances of stupid deaths imo. So yeah, if ur recruiting for heroic raiding I do want to see what kinda of UI you run and if u need to make adjustments or not.

  3. #103
    When looking for a guild I want the app form to match the kinda progress and the overall seriousness of the guild. For a guild that raids a few times per week and is still in normals just do apps in game or have a short: Why do you want to join? Can you make the raids? Do you know how to play?

    Higher tier guilds should have more indepth questions, Like ask for a screenshot and WoL (Anyone in a decent hc guild should be requiring logs, We almost instantly decline apps without logs) Talent choices, Gearing options ect

    This is a also a very good question to have on your app:

    Do you have mumble installed, working mic and are you able to attend our raid days at Wednesday 20-23 and Tuesday 19.30-22? Are you okay with having loot distributed with Loot council?

    It gives the guy applying a lot of information. If he missed anything before applying it's good to tell him just general stuff even if it's written else were as well because having the guy show up day 1 but the week later he ragequits because of your loot system.

  4. #104
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Why is it reasonable (or even considered GOOD) to ask if they have X voice com installed? It's a stupid question seeing as you can just download and install it. People use different voice coms, asking if someone has a particular one installed in a guild app is useless.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Say you get a recruit in your guild that keeps dying to standing on shit and you never know why and neither him. Then ....
    Anyone who dies to shit like that should have been declined on the spot if you checked his logs, he died cause he was awful and since he's awful he probably has those pre-made UIs that cover the entire screen(not saying they're 100% bad, but awful people seem very attracted to those and >muh 3d animated portraits raid frames).

    But he'd still probably die from fire anyway even if you cleaned it up, since he wasn't smart enough to realize the UIs were blocking his view.

  6. #106
    We don't have a long application, usually 8 questions is sufficient. It's really the best opportunity to read a paragraph or two about the person behind the player instead of putting them on the spot in an interview. Aside from that, they can link their armory, include a UI screenshot, and post some WoLs if they have them.

    Like an above poster said, it's also an opportunity to go through a laundry list of things the applicant needs to know too. Either you can have a checklist in the application itself or make a FAQ to pair with it in a separate thread (ie: trial time, loot system, etc). It might seem silly to ask if they have mumble installed, but it's really just a checklist so they're ready to go.

    In 2013 WoW I think there's still a place for applications, not for all guilds, but most raiding mythic content.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-11-21 at 05:54 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Say you get a recruit in your guild that keeps dying to standing on shit and you never know why and neither him. Then you check their UI and you see the freaking mess it is i.e. combat text enabled (i.e. if ur a healer with strong aoe u will be overrun by combat texts), huge addons occupying space from your screen (i.e. recount, chat, etc), raid frames on weird positions which tells me (if ur a healer again) you have to change your focus from the middle of ur screen to weird places like top left etc... DBM alerts right on top of everything instead of moved a bit to the side... The list keeps going on. I've helped a bunch of guildies with their UI and it has improved alot their raid awareness. Too much clutter = more chances of stupid deaths imo. So yeah, if ur recruiting for heroic raiding I do want to see what kinda of UI you run and if u need to make adjustments or not.
    Counter-argument: Sco's UI.

  8. #108
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    Many people do raid perfectly fine with cluttered UI's, but it's a good first step when a recruit is having issues to address their UI.

    You can pull a singular example out of most raid teams. I know of a very good spriest in our guild and when they app'd, I saw their UI and nearly cried. They take the least avoidable damage nearly every time. So yes, a cluttered UI works for them.

    That being said, when you're apping to a guild, they're trying to make sure you're a fit just as much as you need to make sure you are. Applications are very important. It's a TEAM.

  9. #109
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Counter-argument: Sco's UI.
    Sco is GM - your argument is invalid.

  10. #110
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    I'm interested in what people think should be in an application to a raiding guild.

    I'm in a 25 man guild that is 12/14hc raiding nine hours a week over three nights, I simplified our template recently in addition to links to character and logs I made three other boxes

    1) I give them a brief opportunity to tell us a little about themselves, I stress in this question to keep things brief
    2) why they are leaving their previous guild
    3) one last bit incase they feel like they need to add some extra info

    Despite me stressing to people to keep things brief they insist on writing essays, I even had an app recentley they listed all of their key bindings, why is this information considered pertinent.

    Personally all I look at in an application is that their character is as geared and progressed as we want and I will look over their logs and I feel like this is nearly everything I need to make a decision. With regards to whether someone will fit in socially I don't really care, if their raid performance is of a high enough calibre they will have to go a long way not to fit in. Judging by other guilds application forms my view is in the minority and I would be interested to hear why.
    maybe you should put a character cap on the boxes, like no more than 100 letters or something

    this is my guilds application page

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebubble View Post
    Sco is GM - your argument is invalid.
    Being GM has very little to do with it, don't see how in the world that invalidates what he says.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I always been a fan of the "Write your own application" template. It tells you far more about the person applying. How well and serious he writes his application tells you if his ambitions and capabilities are on-par with the guilds. One of my older guild that I was a part of the recruitment officers used to tell people to write their own applications, but to include a lot of personal info about themselves as a person as we want to know who we are raiding with, aswell as relevant raiding information.

    Having been a part of recruiting in a bunch of guilds over the past 6 years, this is what I look for in an application.

    -Structure, how he writes and formulate the application tells you a lot about the player
    Oh really? This is a very common thought among heroic raiding guilds and I really just facepalm everytime I see this. How has someone's ability to write and structure an application ANY connection at all with his actual level of play? Pretty sure structuring, grammar and your vocab dont have any effect on your performance ingame.

    -Personal Info, who the player that you are recruiting is one of the most important things. A great player that does not fit well into the team and match the personality of the rest of the raid often hurts your raid more than it gains. The key to having a succesful raid team is the entire team being on the same wave length both in terms of goals, passion and personality. I have seen guilds crumble just because small factions of the guild did not work well together and did not share the same sense of humor.
    This might be possible for 10man guilds, but I would never dream of trying to find a group of 25 people where EVERYONE is on the same "wave length" in terms of personality. Possibly in terms of goals but thats granted (ie you dont join a hardcore raiding guild if you dont want/cant put in the hours).

    -Previous raiding experience, for obvious reasons
    Agree on this. Although experience older than +2 tiers can be very dodgy and might not mean anything (someone who raided lets say AQ40, vanilla naxx etc doesnt necessarily have to be good)

    -Time spent playing wow, how much time does the player have available, will he play outside of raids, is he reliable?
    Is this really necessary in an application? Pretty sure the raiding schedule is the next thing you look at after checking a guild's progress when looking for a guild. If it didnt fit, why would they try and apply?

    -Previous guilds, why did he leave them? Will he leave ours?
    This is quite relevant, as guildhoppers are quite many these days.

    -Class knowledge, naturally, how much experience does he have of his class and how well does he play it?
    No idea why this is needed. Some guilds even want people to write their entire rotation and CD usage, I mean really (copy paste is hard amirite)? Look at his logs, please. Takes 5 seconds to check someone up on epeen bot to see his past ranks. If hes constantly on +90th particle on most fights then Im quite sure he can play his class, even if hes only played it for 1 tier.

    -World of Logs, anything that shows his actual performance, something that can back up his words about himself with some concrete information about how he plays.
    Yep (although as I mentioned above I mostly just go straight to epeen bot and only after that I check his actual logs to see how he would comparable to lets say one of our current rogues).


    The interesting hard to answer questions is, How many perfect fits have you missed because of the Application process ?
    None? The guilds that are serious enough to take an application and the players to lazy to take 10 minutes to write one are two things that would never fit together. That is fairly obvious to understand, I think even you could understand that.
    But it would save everybody involved so much time if guilds just stopped "forcing" applicants to write 2k word essays, when in truth it probably wont say more about the person than a 100 word-application with proper links and 5 minutes on vent.
    Last edited by schleimhaut; 2013-11-22 at 01:44 AM. Reason: typo

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    Oh really? This is a very common thought among heroic raiding guilds and I really just facepalm everytime I see this. How has someone's ability to write and structure an application ANY connection at all with his actual level of play? Pretty sure structuring, grammar and your vocab dont have any effect on your performance ingame.
    To me, it show how much the guy want to be in the guild. Does he really want to be part of us, or he is just treating us as one of his "hmm, ok, this guild looks good, I will put in my app. If I can get in, yay me. If I can't get in, meh, I will just go to the next"? That, and as I usually tell people who gave us one-sentence answers - "If you can't afford 7-10 mins to fill in this app, how can I know if you have time to do all the research required? Are you going to wait for the leaders to spoonfeed you information?"
    Additionally, maybe it's just my bad experience, but 9 out of 10 bad apps are people lacking either skills, or attitude, or even both.

    Is this really necessary in an application? Pretty sure the raiding schedule is the next thing you look at after checking a guild's progress when looking for a guild. If it didnt fit, why would they try and apply?
    Not just whether he can make raid or not. It's mainly to know if that guy is the type that log on only for raid, log off immediately after, and disappear until next raid or the guy that have time to help the guilds farm mats for Noodle cart, doing alt (or unofficial main) runs for team-building and gear up alts as back-up. Different type of people need different approach. I don't know about guilds above top 50 US, but in my guild, generally we want to recruit a new member, not a mercenary that will be there for one patch / one expansion then take off to somewhere else.

    No idea why this is needed. Some guilds even want people to write their entire rotation and CD usage, I mean really (copy paste is hard amirite)? Look at his logs, please. Takes 5 seconds to check someone up on epeen bot to see his past ranks. If hes constantly on +90th particle on most fights then Im quite sure he can play his class, even if hes only played it for 1 tier.
    I partly agree with this, although both WoL and raidbots can be deceiving sometimes. Have gotten apps who looked fine on epeen bots (70-80+ on heroic bosses, epic / orange rank on normal bosses) turned out to be terrible at some bosses in his trial runs. Maybe he got fed with tricks? Or healers / other people babysit him so he didn't have to do mechanic much and can just tunnel the boss? Maybe he was padding and dotting the world? Arguably, all of those could have been found out before we accepted their apps if someone check through every logs of them, but let's be honest - it will take a lot of time to go through every logs out there for every apps (some didn't even run their own logs before quitting and their guilds' logs were private -_-), why don't we just put a question that may work as a quick screening? Even if it's copy and paste, the guy probably will read it and know what to do.

    But it would save everybody involved so much time if guilds just stopped "forcing" applicants to write 2k word essays, when in truth it probably wont say more about the person than a 100 word-application with proper links and 5 minutes on vent.
    It isn't that bad as people who are against informative apps saying. My guild isn't forcing people to write "2k word essays", but giving us one-sentence answers won't make you looks good. I tried to fill in my guild application form long time ago, took me 10 mins to fill it in and review it. It's not like a CV / resume which you spend hours or days to write, review and refine over and over :P As I stated above, if some guy want to join us, he can afford 10 mins of his time to do that. And while we have to spend extra 3-4' to read his app, it's still better than wasting hours (both ours and his) bringing the guy to trial runs and find out that he isn't as skilled as he said, or has some personality flaws that won't mesh well with the raid. While each individual question may not be important, together they can give the guild some kind of "image" of the applicant.

    Of course, I admit that app-screening is not perfect science, but what else we can do?
    <that and it give me something to do during the relax time at work :P>
    Last edited by Qualia; 2013-11-22 at 03:07 AM.

  14. #114
    It's just to get a brief overview of the things the player is used to having. You can assess the character by its progress and WoL rankings, but you can't assess a player based off those principles, if someone is going to put an effort into the application you can usually get a rough understanding what the person behind that character is like.

    It's also a much easier process than talking to the player before hand since it's already structured and you don't need to worry about forgetting something or running off-topic.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Counter-argument: Sco's UI.
    LOL, I about have an aneurysm every time I see Sco's UI.

    UI's don't make or break an application for me, people parse information in different ways. I just want to know that they're organizing their information in a way which can be seen to be useful.

    For example, lots of people use an addon for their general, long buffs (Mark, flasks, Stamina, etc) that just puts a row of icons along the top of their UI.

    I still use Elkano's Buff Bars for buffs like that, even though the "standard" amount of buffs has grown to a huge amount, because to me, a bar format with a timer is something my brain wraps around better than the standard timer/clock sweep on an icon thing.

    IOW, bars are my besties.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2013-11-22 at 06:14 AM.

  16. #116
    Actually, for all the talk about Sco's UI - his UI has been clean for a long time and even during WoTLK (furthest I can find a reference of his UI), it wasn't too cluttered. I've seen people with much worse UI - too cluttered (addons everywhere) or lack of information (doesn't show anything besides bigwig and recount / skada), or information are all over the screen (boss mod timers on one corner, raid frames on other, DoT timers and cast bar another corner, etc.).

  17. #117
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedelus View Post
    I don't get why people ask for personal information like real-life name and age. You can ask if they are 18+ but age is basically irrelevant and so is IRL name.
    Giving out your real life first name and age shouldn't really be an issue. Serious raiding guilds usually recruit long-term, and are going to care more about the player than their current character (though the character obviously says a lot about the player).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    Why is it reasonable (or even considered GOOD) to ask if they have X voice com installed? It's a stupid question seeing as you can just download and install it. People use different voice coms, asking if someone has a particular one installed in a guild app is useless.
    I think it's usually intended mostly as an "are you okay with voice communication?" question, but phrased so people won't just say yes without even considering the question (as there's an obvious "right" answer). If someone asks about Vent and you don't have it installed, you can just say that. Raiding with people who can't or won't ever speak can get very annoying, so it may be a poorly worded question but it's not a bad thing to ask about.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  18. #118
    One good section would be salary requirements.

    I mean... if you're expecting him to fill out an application, I can only assume he's going to be paid for his time, right?

    No?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    One good section would be salary requirements.

    I mean... if you're expecting him to fill out an application, I can only assume he's going to be paid for his time, right?

    No?
    So you've never filled any form for anything other than job?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    So you've never filled any form for anything other than job?
    Only for beta testing and to be the first to know when tickets come out.

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