View Poll Results: What is your opinion on this idea, please express extra thoughts in a comment

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  • Challenge Raids have a place, and I agree with a 10man size

    4 14.81%
  • Challenge Raids have a place, but I think some factors could be changed (size etc.)

    4 14.81%
  • Challenge Raids don't have a place in WoW

    15 55.56%
  • More Challenge aspects are good, not sure about this implementation though

    4 14.81%
  1. #1

    With 20man raids in WoD, is there room for a new 10man raid?

    So basically, I was thinking, with the way they're going into 20man raids as the only viable raid format for Mythic, do you think a new 10man raid would be a viable idea, however not a loot dropping raid, a challenge raid. Note: It's a side raid, similar to what Karazhan was.

    Imagine say, it has three separate difficulty settings: Bronze. Silver. Gold.
    There are say, 8 bosses, and each boss drops <ONE> token (Prot/Vanq/Conq), that can be turned in for a piece of a new transmog set, different colourations for the three difficulties.

    As a Challenge Raid, your gear is scaled to iLvl X.
    On Bronze, bosses are tuned to be challenging for players that find Flex 3/4 to be a slight challenge, ie. harder than Flex 3/4.
    On Silver, it's tuned to be challenging for players that find Normal last 6 to be a slight challenge, ie. harder than Normal, easier than the later heroics.
    On Gold, it's tuned to be harder than or equal to Heroic Siegecrafter/Rag/Garrosh/LK on each boss.

    Because it's a challenge raid, they could easily get the scaling to be right, and it would have to be run multiple times for people to complete their sets, resulting in a large amount of content, of course there'd have to be a large differentiation between the gear sets in colouring so they're distinguishably, and perhaps instead of a boss that drops a bracer token, instead a boss that drops a weapon or off-hand/shield token that could also be turned in for your choice.

    As a Challenge Raid also, that's not bound by gear, it could be cross realm to line up with Blizzard's new oQueue/OpenRaid feature that they're implementing INGAME, and the balancing could be tuned around a standard, 2 tank, 6 DPS, 2 heal makeup, obviously this would be loose enough to be 3 healed on Bronze and perhaps Silver.

    Loot would be traditional 1 token MasterLooted format, and of course you can only run it once per week per difficulty, so you can't just carry people through for their tokens.

    Another thing to note would be that, in the example of MoP iLvls, I found with Challenge Modes and Proving Grounds that scaling to the basic Heroic 463 level really limits your choices as to builds for different classes and limits your capabilities. Thus the iLvl scaling of it could be say that, it scales all your gear UP or DOWN to a level, say 500. If your gear is above 500, it gets scaled to 500, if your gear is 463, it gets scaled to 500, if your gear is below 463, eg. 450, it gets scaled to 487, thus you still need a minimum of 463 iLvl gear in every slot to get the maximum out of it, but it's not restrictive in that you have to raid to get a high enough iLvl for it.

    Also note, it doesn't necessarily have to be 10man, it could be 15, 20 or even 25, but as a side raid with a Challenge aspect to it, I think 10man would suit right with 20mans, it allows Mythic guilds to split themselves into two to do this content on off days say, it allows LFR/Flex/Normal players to throw together a small group, but still a raid group to take part in the content.

    And one more thing, perhaps transmog isn't a 100% idea to encapsulate all players, of course another bonus could also be by completion of this raid, it awards you 500 VP.


    NOTE: When I say Challenge, it doesn't necessarily have to be timed, because it's scaled so tightly around a static iLvl, the bosses especially on the Gold setting would be hard enough that, even a group that farms it on a regular basis would wipe quite a few times on each boss even during re-clears. On Silver/Bronze, it would be easier, but still challenging of course.

    That being said, you could tie in extra bonuses for completing all 8 bosses faster, ie. a bonus token piece, extra valor, or something else etc.


    I feel that something like this has a place, though maybe not in the exact form that I've outlined here.

    My initial imagination of this was that something like, the plane of Ice that Ahune comes from, perhaps we even fight Ahune, thus all the sets could be designed in a similar theme but take into account aspects of each class, ie. lots of ice/cold.
    Or perhaps other areas that are around in WoW.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10636553628
    Last edited by Oxyra; 2013-11-21 at 02:05 PM.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
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  2. #2
    It would still be another raid size/difficulty that needs balanced and tuned, which is much of the point of 20 man only mythic - moving away from needing to balance multiple raid sizes at the cutting edge difficulty. I think it would be cool to have the option to do (more options are almost always a good thing), but I don't think it warrants the development time - particularly not in Blizzard's POV.
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  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
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    Challenge raids are a great idea imo, perhaps executed differently.

    To save them having to tune for a separate raid size, I imagine it'd be easiest to just use the Mythic difficulty raid, scale ilvl to be equivalent to the Heroic difficulty gear and set tough time constraints, as though it was a speed run coming in to the instance before overgearing it.

    Would love to see something like that implemented, though doubt it's in the pipeline for now.

    Reminds me of back in the WOTLK Naxx days when some guild speed ran the instance insanely quickly and the guild I was in at the time spent weeks trying to emulate it
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  4. #4
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
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    In response to the title: No, I don't think that there is room for a "new" 10man raid when Blizzard is trying to consolidate the raid sizes.

    You have some real cool ideas but I don't think there is room for it to be implemented anytime soon, specially this time around.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    It would still be another raid size/difficulty that needs balanced and tuned, which is much of the point of 20 man only mythic - moving away from needing to balance multiple raid sizes at the cutting edge difficulty. I think it would be cool to have the option to do (more options are almost always a good thing), but I don't think it warrants the development time - particularly not in Blizzard's POV.
    Just to clarify, it would not make sense to do this for the new raids, but as a distinct separate side raid, ie. a raid without an LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic form, that is, the raid is strictly a Challenge raid, themed in a location as a side raid.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
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  6. #6
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Just to clarify, it would not make sense to do this for the new raids, but as a distinct separate side raid, ie. a raid without an LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic form, that is, the raid is strictly a Challenge raid, themed in a location as a side raid.
    Then you're asking for additional development, lore, characters, encounters, etc. This would add to the patch time or detract from other content. It would be more practical for it to be another raid size/difficulty then a whole new raid.

    Where I do think these ideas have credence is in a 5 or 10man Proving Grounds
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  7. #7
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
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    I'd rather have blizzard put more time into the challenge mode dungeons instead of creating a new (possibly very easy) challenge raid. The players with whom I talk about the challenge modes all say its just so easy. Maybe they shouldnt only be based around a time period but also on different objectives that need to be met.

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  8. #8
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
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    Challenge raids sound completely doable.. and I'd venture to say they were heading that route anyway - just wanting to see the popularity of challenge mode dungeons.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nimryas View Post
    I'd rather have blizzard put more time into the challenge mode dungeons instead of creating a new (possibly very easy) challenge raid. The players with whom I talk about the challenge modes all say its just so easy. Maybe they shouldnt only be based around a time period but also on different objectives that need to be met.
    I actually thought Blizz should've put in a Glory achievement for Challenge Modes, ie. doing one of the achievements on Challenge Modes grants you an extra X time to getting gold, but you've had to do the achievement depending on which one it is, example, one such as Hydrophobia in Jade Temple may not add any time on, or may add on 20 seconds or so to make up for the fact that your tank to get the achievement can't dip the water for Vengeance.

    Doing something like again, in Jade Temple, clicking the 4 seeds of doubt wouldn't add on time, but would be hard to do because I'd assume on CM version they'd do a lot of damage, ones such as throwing bombs on the boss in Siege of Niuzao and killing the guy that flies over (amberwing) on the boss in there, are standard achieves that are more or less completed in every CM anyway as part of the standard objectives.

    But yes, Gold was certainly easy, but at the same time, they made it so that it was easy enough so all classes could do it, which I think was a mistake on the fact that they balanced it around too low of an iLvl, removing hit/exp and increasing the base iLvl to be say, Heroic raids instead of Heroic dungeons, with an upscaling factor provided your gear meets a minimum, gives much more room for them to be tighter on timers as once classes get into epics, they even out more compared to in heroic blues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    In response to the title: No, I don't think that there is room for a "new" 10man raid when Blizzard is trying to consolidate the raid sizes.

    You have some real cool ideas but I don't think there is room for it to be implemented anytime soon, specially this time around.
    Also, I don't think the issue with consolidating sizes is so much that they're trying to save time, as it was a balancing issue, trying to balance 10 and 25 to be the same, even if they used this Challenge model to apply it to a standard raid, it'd be easier to balance because they're balancing it as a separate mode that everyone can take part in, rather than balancing 10mans to be equal in difficulty to 25mans, which was the main issue. They were never equal.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
    Raiding with Fused - Illidan

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