Low Levels // No BoA // SUPER SQUISH

[jadedfuture]

Subtlety Rogue.

Armory here: not like it'll really matter though.

From my experience of playing as a sub rogue for the past 55 levels, I've noticed something very annoying. As my level increases, so does my squishiness! I'm leveling in Blasted Lands at the moment and I'm just fighting generic Ashmane Boars around this place for a quest and, if I don't pull off an ambush + premed. I usually end up either (a) losing 75% of my health, or (b) popping defensive cd's, or (god forbid I don't fight anything with anything less then 100% health) (c) die.

I haven't really noticed it until now but at this point I just feel like a glass cannon.

Is this normal? Will I be better off once I get to a higher level?

[ymirsson]

Get new weapons.

[jadedfuture]

Get new weapons.

That can't really be the full issue is it? :P

[BEYR]

That can't really be the full issue is it? :P

Yea, it can. Warriors and Rogues get the most benefit from weapons. All of our abilities are based on weapon damage. Upgrade as often as you can.

[Kael]

That can't really be the full issue is it? :P

Yep. If you're playing sub, your options are "make it dead, make it dead" or try again next time. Sub's only really a good solo option if you can kill an enemy in Ambush->Eviscerate; if you can't, you might want to try another spec for soloing (GoDeadlyMomentum, SnD, Recup - they never drop between mobs). Sub solo is just about burst potential; you can't even realistically backstab.

[shadowboy]

Also, for leveling as subtlety, subterfuge is an extremely useful level 15 talent due to subtlety's dependence on positioning. Open with cheap shot, ambush at the last second of subterfuge, and hemo (if no HaT proc) and then evis. I'd also recommend nerve strike instead of combat readiness. If you chain stuns and nerve strike debuffs (ie, open with cheap shot, then kidney shot once nerve strike debuff wears off), you will GREATLY reduce the damage you take. Nerve strike is a FAR better survivability talent than combat readiness in any scenario where you can stun and you are going 1v1 (if you pull multiple mobs or the mob is stun-immune, combat readiness is better).

[jadedfuture]

Yep. If you're playing sub, your options are "make it dead, make it dead" or try again next time. Sub's only really a good solo option if you can kill an enemy in Ambush->Eviscerate; if you can't, you might want to try another spec for soloing (GoDeadlyMomentum, SnD, Recup - they never drop between mobs). Sub solo is just about burst potential; you can't even realistically backstab.

I see, I'm going with this advice here:

Also, for leveling as subtlety, subterfuge is an extremely useful level 15 talent due to subtlety's dependence on positioning. Open with cheap shot, ambush at the last second of subterfuge, and hemo (if no HaT proc) and then evis. I'd also recommend nerve strike instead of combat readiness. If you chain stuns and nerve strike debuffs (ie, open with cheap shot, then kidney shot once nerve strike debuff wears off), you will GREATLY reduce the damage you take. Nerve strike is a FAR better survivability talent than combat readiness in any scenario where you can stun and you are going 1v1 (if you pull multiple mobs or the mob is stun-immune, combat readiness is better).

I'm trying it out now and it's actually really great advice. I'm not even getting hit at all. Thanks for everyone's feedback!

[Warstar]

Btw be prepared for it to get a lot harder. You just got through the easy levels as a rogue.

Rogues have crap for self healing and no burst healing just a weak hot so where a lot of classes can just heal and get through it a rogues only options end up being burst it down through CDs, vanish and run away, or die.

But it is worth it. End game rogues are awesome. They're just the hardest class to get there.

[shadowboy]

I don't get that. I've never found rogues to be difficult to level. You just can't choose to pull mass amounts and aoe them down, like some classes do. I've always felt squishier on my plate dps characters (barring paladin) than my rogue, just because the rogue has a very good survivability toolkit. Also leeching poison is an incredibly useful leveling talent. It makes you feel less squishy (the heals don't seem like much, but at end game it scales far better with gear than recuperate does).

[ymirsson]

I don't think rogues are hard to level either, if you do it right. You have to solo pull most of the time, but you can separate almost anything and you can burst down most quests mobs like warm butter.

[shadowboy]

Rogues have the distinct advantage of faster quest completion by allowing you to skip things that other classes have to fight through.

[Warstar]

Rogues have the distinct advantage of faster quest completion by allowing you to skip things that other classes have to fight through.

Where as plate just runs to the quest mob and aoes everything down and finishes with a /manly fist pump. DKs self heal like crazy. Paladins are unkillable unless you pull half the zone. Warriors pop blade storm and then spam victory rush and you can kill so much stuff and end up at 100% health.

In comparrison rogues have to kill mobs one by one which by lv 88 takes awhile. It's not that rogues are "hard" per se rather than they have the worst survivability outside of CDs and at low gear don't have the dps to just blade flurry stuff down without dying. Pretty much in the dread wastes if you're in a situation where you use blade flurry you need evasion and once that runs out you take so much damage. And then there's the fact that recoup just doesn't heal for that much and it's slow so rogues have more down time and have to eat/use bandages a lot.

I mean even at lv90 with good gear rogues are still squishy as hell. Pretty sure that's why in pvp rogues get focused a lot.

I honestly think it has to do with the lack of strong self sustain. Leeching poison's usefulness is relative to how much damage you do and since rogues are pretty bad damage wise at low gear levels the healing from that is very low and recuperate just doesn't heal for that much compared to something like victory rush where you can spam a 30% (glyphed) heal.

[Frolk]

respecc to Assassination

[shadowboy]

Where as plate just runs to the quest mob and aoes everything down and finishes with a /manly fist pump. DKs self heal like crazy. Paladins are unkillable unless you pull half the zone. Warriors pop blade storm and then spam victory rush and you can kill so much stuff and end up at 100% health.

*blood dks* self heal like crazy. Frost and unholy self healing is crap. worse than rogues. (the damage cost is FAR higher for them. death strike does crap damage and crap healing for them). And NOTHING will exceed the xp per hour of faster quest completion. Kill only what you need to complete a quest to complete it faster and you get more xp per hour. If you're killing every mob you see as a rogue, you're doing it wrong.

[Feali]

Where as plate just runs to the quest mob and aoes everything down and finishes with a /manly fist pump. DKs self heal like crazy. Paladins are unkillable unless you pull half the zone. Warriors pop blade storm and then spam victory rush and you can kill so much stuff and end up at 100% health.

In comparrison rogues have to kill mobs one by one which by lv 88 takes awhile. It's not that rogues are "hard" per se rather than they have the worst survivability outside of CDs and at low gear don't have the dps to just blade flurry stuff down without dying. Pretty much in the dread wastes if you're in a situation where you use blade flurry you need evasion and once that runs out you take so much damage. And then there's the fact that recoup just doesn't heal for that much and it's slow so rogues have more down time and have to eat/use bandages a lot.

I mean even at lv90 with good gear rogues are still squishy as hell. Pretty sure that's why in pvp rogues get focused a lot.

I honestly think it has to do with the lack of strong self sustain. Leeching poison's usefulness is relative to how much damage you do and since rogues are pretty bad damage wise at low gear levels the healing from that is very low and recuperate just doesn't heal for that much compared to something like victory rush where you can spam a 30% (glyphed) heal.

(Leeching Poison + Recuperate + Glyph of Recuperate + Glyph of Recovery = never die)

But yes. This is one of the reasons why Rogues aren't so popular.

[mat cauthon]

Subtlety Rogue.

Armory here: not like it'll really matter though.

From my experience of playing as a sub rogue for the past 55 levels, I've noticed something very annoying. As my level increases, so does my squishiness! I'm leveling in Blasted Lands at the moment and I'm just fighting generic Ashmane Boars around this place for a quest and, if I don't pull off an ambush + premed. I usually end up either (a) losing 75% of my health, or (b) popping defensive cd's, or (god forbid I don't fight anything with anything less then 100% health) (c) die.

I haven't really noticed it until now but at this point I just feel like a glass cannon.

Is this normal? Will I be better off once I get to a higher level?

personally i suggest assassin for leveling, only because i recently made a fresh rogue. however that opinion may be skewed by the fact that ive been playing the spec for years prior to leveling so i know it by heart.

as for the rest, yes its very normal for someone whos new to rogues to be very squishy leveling. and it will continue to happen even at higher levels including max until you are geared. the saving grace here is you also have one very strong toolkit to counter the squishiness but it requires doing more then the average class (again my opinion which may or may not be true)

some tips just from what ive figured while playing mine, these go for both solo content at max and leveling:
-leeching poison is a blessing, use it if you cant mow down your targets in seconds
-if for whatever reason you dont want to use leeching poison paralytic is another god send
-open with cheap shot, always.
-you are not a warrior, you are an agent of stealth and destruction, single your targets out and take them ONE at a time. blind and sap can both be used without breaking stealth.
-combat readiness is beneficial for taking on stronger mobs or when singling out mobs is not an option
-if you have evasion, use it.
-vanish is your friend when the going gets tough you can gtfo
-shiv with either leeching or paralytic poison is a very useful tool

some of these abilities you have access to now, others will come in time. just remember as rogues we are very well acquainted with death, both in receiving and dishing it out. cause even as a 565 deathgod theres still trash mobs that 1 shot me in siege if i dont pop something fast or pull accidentally

[Exodeus]

I went Sub for levelling cause I found it the most fun granted I had BoA gear since rogue was my like 4th to level but I never found it hard to quest grind so hit the AH for some greens/blues unless you are on a low pop server then you kinda need to instance for gear cause AH will be a wasteland or extremely expansive.

[Warstar]

*blood dks* self heal like crazy. Frost and unholy self healing is crap. worse than rogues. (the damage cost is FAR higher for them. death strike does crap damage and crap healing for them). And NOTHING will exceed the xp per hour of faster quest completion. Kill only what you need to complete a quest to complete it faster and you get more xp per hour. If you're killing every mob you see as a rogue, you're doing it wrong.

Glyph dark succor as a DK and it's the same thing as victory rush. Free death strike healing 20% hp.

[Verain]

You are really wearing terrible gear. Just awful.

When I was that level, I had MC gear on. Looms are generally better than that, but you have 0. I certainly didn't have trash from Razorfen Downs, or Thousand Needles (though, the belt is permitted despite its humble origins: I have no idea how it gets away with such stats)..

1)- Get the hell out of Cheat Death. Stupid talent. Given your complaints about squish, consider leeching poison. Elu is my personal favorite. Cheat Death is too niche for you, drop it.
2)- Ensure the Glyph of Deadly Momentum. This glyph is mandatory for leveling a rogue.
3)- Glyph Recuperate, or, if you must, stay stealth- but recuperate glyph will dramatically increase your healing from recuperate.
4)- Glyph Sanguinary Vein if you want to stay sub. If you are combat, you can instead run stealth over this.
5)- Talent Nightstalker! This is my special sauce, and not everyone here will agree with me. trust meeeeeee
6)- I strongly suggest burst of speed over shadowstep.

Now, you begin grinding mobs in an area. Mobs make XP, and quest juice, right? You open a mob with premed ambush, and then immediately hemo the mob. At this point you will have 4 or 5 CPs, so feel free to hemo to max Combo Points, then press slice and dice. Finish the mob. On the next mob, get your five point recuperate going.
Now, for then next who cares how long, you run around ambush or garrote opening every goddamned mob you see, and you move between mobs super fast. If you are stealthed, with burst of speed and nightstalker, you will move at around 210% movement- that compares well with 220% on an epic ground mount, and most of the leveling zones are designed to accomodate mob-to-mob movement and grinding.


You will CONSTANTLY be healing tons, from the consistently refreshed recuperate, without having to spend any offense on it. With slice and dice always at high duration, your only finisher will be eviscerate. A really tough mob you can max combo point kidney shot with 90 energy, and then backstab the fuck out of it, and when it's done with that you'll be taking half damage from nerve strike too.


If you don't have these specific glyphs beg a scribe for them. Write them a mail. Almost every scribe will make you glyphs for free or nearly free if you send a couple stacks of the herbs that can make them (and green tea leaf can make anything), as the biggest pain about most professions is the time spent gathering and using mats.

These simple steps will dramatically improve your leveling, but so will getting some better gear, which will happen sooner or later.

[tauntor]

After leveling 5 toons to 90. Rogues are definately the hardest. We take a beating against mobs in pandaria.