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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    You want your PvP welfare epics to be good for everything and everywhere just because....[/B].
    Ignoring "welfare epics" (because if we look at it like that, than LFR and FLEX are welfare as well)......

    No!, Stop!

    We didn't say everything and everywhere, only VS Players.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnaar View Post
    Real problem comes with even higher ilvl from PvE, increasing the advantage in PvP
    There is no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas. So how is PvE gear interfering with your PvP in any way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnaar View Post
    Ignoring "welfare epics" (because if we look at it like that, than LFR and FLEX are welfare as well)......
    Are PvPers complaining about LFR and Flex gear? All I see are PvPers complaining about Heroic geared players in open world PvE zones.

  3. #83
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    There is no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas. So how is PvE gear interfering with your PvP in any way?
    World PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    World PvP.
    Which the Devs have stated over and over again that they will not balance around. That is also assuming you are on a PvP server and not a PvE server.

    Sounds like a non-existent problem for a semi-vocal minority.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    There is no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas. So how is PvE gear interfering with your PvP in any way?

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    Are PvPers complaining about LFR and Flex gear? All I see are PvPers complaining about Heroic geared players in open world PvE zones.
    In Instanced PvP? it's not interfering.

    Instance PvE and instanced PvP are fine.

    Outside of instances, PvE is better vs NPC. Perfectly fine.
    Outside of instances, PvE is better vs Players. Not fine.

    I hope I was more clear now

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    14 ilvls is about 15-20% damage. The cloak (which shouldnt proc on players?) is about 5-10%, but disregarding as ive never seen it proc vs a player.

    28 ilvls (flex?) is 35-40% damage. They also get about 60-80k~ more hp which I'd call equivalent here.

    And talking week one only 2/16 items can be upgraded.

    I mentioned before I agree pvp gear should be able to beat norm/hc gear though.
    In short, your numbers are a bit off.

    I made an example comparing an upgraded LFR PVE piece with conquest PVP piece, which might help:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23968467

    The PVE piece wins.

  7. #87
    You're 100% correct, you don't have a fair chance against a PVE geared HERO in open world PVP, matter of fact you don't even have a fighting chance. The gear disparity is off-the-charts unfair and ridiculous. Forget about the world PVP aspect of things, you can't even do dailies with the comfort of knowing you can hold your own in a fight. And, the situation will only get worse with the connected realms rolling out. This is the way Blizzard wants things to be and it doesn't seem like it's going change. Brian Holinka really fucked up PVP beyond all recognition. I can't wait til he starts fucking pvp'ers in WOD, should be a lot of fun.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Which the Devs have stated over and over again that they will not balance around. That is also assuming you are on a PvP server and not a PvE server.

    Sounds like a non-existent problem for a semi-vocal minority.
    Whether Devs are trying to balance it or not, fact remains that PvE gear after certain point gets better for "VS Player" than PvP gear, which means it's not fair.

    EDIT: maybe not a good analogy, but it's like saying "The law states you can't drink water here, but they can". It's "How it is", yes, but still not fair

  9. #89
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    PvP = log in every day and pvp, win or lose you will hit Conquest cap and get free epics.

    PvE = work towards a goal and hone skill until you are able to overcome challenges and earn gear, if you are lucky enough for your gear to drop and are able to roll / bid on it and win.

    PvP gear being so easy to obtain is fine as long as it only has the advantage on PvP areas, as in BGs and Arenas. Which it does.

    You want PvP gear to be great at everything, it should take a little bit more skill than afking in BGs to obtain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnaar View Post
    Whether Devs are trying to balance it or not, fact remains that PvE gear after certain point gets better for "VS Player" than PvP gear, which means it's not fair.
    There is no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    In short, your numbers are a bit off.

    I made an example comparing an upgraded LFR PVE piece with conquest PVP piece, which might help:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post23968467

    The PVE piece wins.
    you used secondary's as an argument of power which isn't universally true (read: invalid comparison), you also claimed cloak is 10% damage, also not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnaar View Post
    In Instanced PvP? it's not interfering.

    Instance PvE and instanced PvP are fine.

    Outside of instances, PvE is better vs NPC. Perfectly fine.
    Outside of instances, PvE is better vs Players. Not fine.

    I hope I was more clear now
    So you are saying this is only a problem for a small minority of PvPers geared in welfare epics on PvP servers only?

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    The cloak (which shouldnt proc on players?) is ...
    Forgot to answer this.

    The legendary cloak DOES proc on players just fine - for WORLD PVP. The proc is disabled in arenas and BGs. Same for the legendary PVE meta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    you used secondary's as an argument of power which isn't universally true (read: invalid comparison), you also claimed cloak is 10% damage, also not true.
    Not sure what's wrong with comparing the value of secondary stats on a certain spec with PVP in mind. PVP players do this all the time when decide what to gem.

    The cloak is going to be MORE than 10% damage for this spec in a heavy movement fight. It is easily 8% damage of heroic gear, which is much higher ilvl, on a stationary fight, so there...

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Forgot to answer this.

    The legendary cloak DOES proc on players just fine - for WORLD PVP. The proc is disabled in arenas and BGs. Same for the legendary PVE meta.
    So the cloak proc does work in PvE zones, where it is meant to work.

    There is still no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas.

    I just don't understand why the PvPers want their welfare epics to be best at everything. You have the advantage in PvP. In PvE zones, PvE gear has the advantage. I'd say for a gear set that takes no skill whatsoever to acquire you're making out well.

  14. #94
    Let me understand:

    players with pve gear that enter a pvp zone have no advantage. This is the case.
    players with pvp gear enter pve zone and want the advantage. lol why?

  15. #95
    I read through most of the comments as best I could without my eyes glazing over and basically the TL;DR version of the whole thread is "I used to gank PVE players in world PVP and they stood no chance. Now they can actually kill me and it's not fair!"
    Ilvl is like a Bikini. What it shows is interesting, what it hides is crutial!

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    So the cloak proc does work in PvE zones, where it is meant to work.

    There is still no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas.

    I just don't understand why the PvPers want their welfare epics to be best at everything. You have the advantage in PvP. In PvE zones, PvE gear has the advantage. I'd say for a gear set that takes no skill whatsoever to acquire you're making out well.
    The moment a player attacks another player, it is PVP. Where this happens is irrelevant. Hence the complaints.

    PVP gear should be better than PVE gear for PVP that happens in the world.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    Let me understand:

    players with pve gear that enter a pvp zone have no advantage. This is the case.
    players with pvp gear enter pve zone and want the advantage. lol why?
    Because their welfare epics that they coasted to should be good enough to do everything! They should be able to quest in it, dungeon in it, raid in it, kill everyone in it, because it takes real skill to afk in BGs!

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post

    Not sure what's wrong with comparing the value of secondary stats on a certain spec with PVP in mind. PVP players do this all the time when decide what to gem.
    Because for every item with good stats in pve I can link you one with bad. BiS LFR is a rarity (and while we're on this subject) optimal timeless is ridiculously rare. With PvP offset items you even choose your stats between 2-3 items.

    The cloak is going to be MORE than 10% damage for this spec in a heavy movement fight. It is easily 8% damage of heroic gear, which is much higher ilvl, on a stationary fight, so there...
    It maxes out at 8% damage (with good RNG) in heroic gear, usually doing 4-5% single target. Just because it does 11% on galakras doesn't mean it will do 11% on a single player

    Edit: Not like it's a huge deal, we're talking small %'s now.
    Last edited by Raiju; 2013-11-29 at 01:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    Let me understand:

    players with pve gear that enter a pvp zone have no advantage. This is the case.
    players with pvp gear enter pve zone and want the advantage. lol why?
    No, we want equality in PvE zones during fighting players ONLY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalla View Post
    I read through most of the comments as best I could without my eyes glazing over and basically the TL;DR version of the whole thread is "I used to gank PVE players in world PVP and they stood no chance. Now they can actually kill me and it's not fair!"
    Sorry, but if that's your conclusion, you didn't read it carefully enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    So you are saying this is only a problem for a small minority of PvPers geared in welfare epics on PvP servers only?
    I can't argue with that statment, but:
    Fair is fair, no matter what % of players play that part of game

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    The moment a player attacks another player, it is PVP. Where this happens is irrelevant. Hence the complaints.

    PVP gear should be better than PVE gear for PVP that happens in the world.
    Sorry, but are are asking for PvP welfare epics to trump raid gear in PvE zones on PvP servers only. It just doesn't work that way. I know you want to feel like a special snowflake for all your hard work while afking in BGs, but you aren't.

    There is no advantage to wearing PvE gear in BGs and Arenas and in WoD World PvP zones as well. You should be happy that your welfare epics give you this much already. A lot of people would rather anything goes in World PvP zones. At least it takes some skill to get raid gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnaar View Post
    I can't argue with that statment
    I know that you can't, and yet some of these PvPers are trying.

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