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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwhale View Post
    I really don't understand the "item upgrade already provide a nerf over time" thing.
    If it was like in T14/T15 with upgrade system locked at the start, I could agree.

    But now, who the fuck doesn't have 500 valor points tu use when they get a loot?

    2/2 is no longer an "upgrade", as someone else in this thread already said it's just like enchant/gems.
    People whose gear is getting replaced rapidly will not have 500VP lying around for every item of gear they obtain. You can get enough VP to upgrade 2 items a week. So if you get 4 items a week due to progressing, you will, very soon run dry.

    However as soon as people get stuck in the progress, they will stop getting gear upgrades, but will keep accumulating VP to upgrade existing gear. They also have a chance at warforged gear, so even if they are stuck, there are potential upgrades from raid drops.

    There are basically two ways of progressing when your group is stuck at a boss:

    1) Improve your gear
    2) Improve your gameplay

    During normal progression, both tend to improve until the boss dies.

    The reason nerfs become necessary are when you are faced with a group who already:

    1) has all the gear they can get from bosses prior to the one they are stuck at (ie they are no longer able to improve their gear without defeating the boss)
    2) have hit their skill cap (ie they simply aren't able to get any better at the game)

    Effectively said boss has become too hard for that group in that gear to ever beat (at least not before they give up), and without beating the boss, their gear can never improve. So they become stuck, unable to progress, until they eventually give up.

    Now, with item upgrades and warforged, groups stuck on a boss will still see gear improvements for a long time even if they are no longer getting any "new" gear to help in their progression. For most groups who may be stuggling on a boss in spite of having the best items from the bosses before it, an extra 8 ilevels will be a sufficient boost to make the difference.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    People whose gear is getting replaced rapidly will not have 500VP lying around for every item of gear they obtain. You can get enough VP to upgrade 2 items a week. So if you get 4 items a week due to progressing, you will, very soon run dry.
    this would be true if not fact that all raiders went into SoO week 1 with 4k valor and u would have to be god of rng to go out of week 1 with 8 gear pieces

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by soulkeeperx View Post
    I'm kinda hoping for one, we're very close to 14/14heroic and wouldn't mind going back to an easy 1 day raid schedule until WoD
    Your hopes are in vain, they wont nerf content unless there are new content available
    Last edited by Trollfaced; 2013-11-25 at 12:08 PM.
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  4. #124
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Your hopes are in vain, they wont nerf content unless there are new content available and thats a fact.
    I think they will still roll in the 30% nerf like they always did in the previous expansions. We just need to be patient

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this would be true if not fact that all raiders went into SoO week 1 with 4k valor and u would have to be god of rng to go out of week 1 with 8 gear pieces
    In a ten man bleeding edge setup, 28 pieces drop per clear. That is 2.8 per person. Plus 2x world bosses. Plus 3 coins. Plus Flex. Plus LFR.

    For week 1 with no LFR and only Flex wing 1, I can see an average of 5-6 pieces dropping for those clearing everything.
    For week 2, with LFR1 and Flex2 added to the mix, I can see a lot more gear pieces dropping, and if the raiders are spending VP to do all upgrades possible, they would have been out of VP by then.

    I can certainly see all those guys pushing progression in the first 10 weeks not having enough VP to upgrade absolutely everything.

  6. #126
    Please yes, I want to clear farm in two hours again
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  7. #127
    i wouldnt mind if they nerfed normal mode by 20% or w/e for the people doing that. but id prefer if they didnt touch heroics.

  8. #128
    It is not needed but I bet it is coming.

  9. #129
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    In a ten man bleeding edge setup, 28 pieces drop per clear. That is 2.8 per person. Plus 2x world bosses. Plus 3 coins. Plus Flex. Plus LFR.

    For week 1 with no LFR and only Flex wing 1, I can see an average of 5-6 pieces dropping for those clearing everything.
    For week 2, with LFR1 and Flex2 added to the mix, I can see a lot more gear pieces dropping, and if the raiders are spending VP to do all upgrades possible, they would have been out of VP by then.

    I can certainly see all those guys pushing progression in the first 10 weeks not having enough VP to upgrade absolutely everything.
    Shiiieeet man, it's the casuals who the nerfing mechanism is targeted at, not bleeding edge groups.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    In a ten man bleeding edge setup, 28 pieces drop per clear. That is 2.8 per person. Plus 2x world bosses. Plus 3 coins. Plus Flex. Plus LFR.

    For week 1 with no LFR and only Flex wing 1, I can see an average of 5-6 pieces dropping for those clearing everything.
    For week 2, with LFR1 and Flex2 added to the mix, I can see a lot more gear pieces dropping, and if the raiders are spending VP to do all upgrades possible, they would have been out of VP by then.

    I can certainly see all those guys pushing progression in the first 10 weeks not having enough VP to upgrade absolutely everything.
    You don't get gear that fast in practice because of a few reasons:

    - You have more than 10 raiders, 12-13 is more likely so drops are spread over a larger number of players

    - Some items will go to offspec or be disenchanted from week 1, and you'll disenchant more and more as time goes by. You're unlikely to have a spec in your raid for every type of loot drop. Duplicates will be disenchanted or offspec'd, when you get your 2nd pair of mail agility boots for your one hunter for example.

    - Some items are plain bad (mainly some trinkets), and not worth using for anyone, let alone wasting valor on upgrading them

    - LFR loot isn't an upgrade for anyone who did the previous tier extensively

    - 2/2 upgraded Flexi loot is only a minor upgrade to previous tier heroic gear. It's a downgrade to heroic thunderforged gear. You're not going to waste valor on Flexi loot if it means delaying a normal/heroic Siege upgrade.

    You start the tier with enough valor to upgrade 8 items, and you get enough valor for another 2 items every week after the first one. Some lucky people will get enough upgrades to run out of valor. Most people who started the tier with full or nearly full heroic ToT gear aren't in any danger of ever running out of valor unless they're also upgrading an offspec set.
    Last edited by paraalso; 2013-11-25 at 01:32 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Shiiieeet man, it's the casuals who the nerfing mechanism is targeted at, not bleeding edge groups.
    Well yes, that is exactly my point.

    The assertion I was responding to is that "everyone" will pretty much automatically have all their gear upgraded as they get it, ergo no "nerf over time".

    My argument is that no, not everyone will have all all their gear boosted by upgrades, particularly the bleeding edge progression groups. Casuals, on the other hand, for whom nerfs are needed, will typically end up upgrading their gear as they get it, because they aren't clearing content fast enough to run out of VP.

    Thus, gear upgrades, as intended, act as a nerfing mechanism for the more casual playerbase.

    If you think about it, everyone has 16 gear slots. Casuals starting out in LFR/Flex, progressing to normal and then a few heroics, will possibly end up replacing every gear item several times during progression. Hell, if you include minor upgrades (eg a hunter replacing a hit/mastery piece with crit/haste esp when already over hit cap) plus timeless Burden of Eternity (ie for better itemised slots) it could land up being a lot more for one slot: LFR => LFR better itemised => Burden of Eternity => Burden of Eternity better itemised => Flex => Flex better itemised => Normal => Normal better itemised => Normal Warforged => Normal Warforged better itemised => Heroic => Heroic better itemised => Heroic Warforged => Heroic BiS.

    That's a staggering 14 possible upgrades for just 1 slot. Not that I am saying most people will apply VP upgrades 14 times for 1 slot, but I can certainly see people upgrading gear 2, 3 maybe even 4 times while progressing through the various difficulty settings, and spending VP each time.

    Assuming an average of 3 upgrades per slot That makes 48 upgrades, or 24 weeks of VP capping to make it happen.

  12. #132
    The Lightbringer Razorice's Avatar
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    I don't think SoO needs a nerf really. It's not a hard instance...

  13. #133
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    The nerf is called "LFR". IMHO the 30% nerf to ICC basically turned that place into LFR (well..at least on normal) - and if you ran 10 man HC in 25 man HC gear AND the 30% nerf, then HC wasn't that HC either.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #134
    Pandaren Monk 1ns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daws View Post
    Nope isn't needed we've got a minimum of six months before the next expansion (and more likely eight actual), by all means start the nerfs at two months before the next xpac but not now.
    Source? Theres no reason to belive the next expansion won't release before that.
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

  15. #135
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    I don't think SoO needs a nerf really. It's not a hard instance...
    Meh. Probably on normal. If you think that it isn't a hard Instance on HC given the fact that barely 100 guilds are 14/14 HC then you are just a very awesome player. And I would take you seriously if you are among the first couple of guilds who got Ggarrosh down. I'd say anything that requires over 600 pulls from a top guilds is hard. Yes, I am going there, before the "one boss doesn't make an Instance hard" comments.

    Anyways...my search skills suck, can't find your character to verify
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #136
    Item upgrades are the new layered 30% buffs.

    Its just feels(!) less "lets lower that bar for you, little kiddie!" and more like we are getting more powerfull to defeat the boss.
    psychology at its finest^^
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  17. #137
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    Item upgrades are the new layered 30% buffs.
    No, they are not...
    What the OP means, and where he is spot on, is the history of the game so far.
    At the end of an expansion Blizzard has always opened the doors of the raid instances, always. Opened as in introduction of buffs, or nerf if one prefers that term..

    Towards the end of the expansion, they put the buffs in place to let the people finally move through the content in what ever the mode is they play.
    The 4 difficulty levels have no bearing to this. The only thing that changed between Cata and MoP was Flex. But that's not an argument either.
    They are rewarding raids that are on normal mode and heroic mode. That's the traditional way since WotLK.
    For TBC that change was more of a "stealth mode" nerf... The buff system came with WotLK, it allows for players to do the instance to their likes. They can freely choose to do it the old fashioned way, by turning the buff off, or with the buff active.

    So yes, I too expect the buff to come, and that's where the [Ahead of the Curve] Achievement for SoO will be stopped from being awarded.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  18. #138
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Although I would quite like this to make it possible for us to boost multiple people on HC garrosh at once, I dont think it will happen for the simple fact that Flex difficulty now exists and it is pretty much a 30% nerfed Normal mode.
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  19. #139
    No, they are not...
    #
    Yes they are!
    ghostcrawler even said so. The % buffs were there to help people overcome bosses they were stuck on, by increasing players dmg little by little (or decrease the bosses health) and by increasing your health (or the bosses dmg)
    Since they didnt really get the "little by little" right (5% is a huge deal), it felt somewhat demotivating.


    itemupgrades give you increasing dmg and hp over time (since you cant upgrade everything instantly, but have to wait for more valor). They do exactly the same thing.
    The diffrence is just, that this time they got the Itemupgrades right and they are less massive (2 upgrades per week instead of 5% dmg every month). So they feel less invasive.
    Apprently to a point where some players dont even see a connection

    So I wouldt count on them ever coming back for current content.
    Maybe 6.03 will have a instant 30% nurf like vanilla had, before bc came out.
    Last edited by owbu; 2013-11-25 at 02:24 PM.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    (since you cant upgrade everything)
    We are not playing the same game as you apparently.

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